189 replies to this topic

[somechineseperson]

A Question (especially for Christians):

Is the Chinese Dragon a Satanic symbol?

I'm not talking about myths, I'm saying spiritually, is the Dragon really Satanic or not?

Yuan Zhiming seems to think so, at least to some extent.

However, IMO there is more to it than that. Firstly, Yuan Zhiming also praised Laozi and Yijing in his book "China's Confession", and Laozi was described as a "dragon" by Confucius, and in the Yijing the dragon is an auspicious symbol, not an evil one. Secondly, remember even Satan used to be an angel, thus even if there were one evil dragon or some evil dragons does not necessarily mean that all dragons are evil. Thirdly, AFAIK in old Jewish cultural legends the snake or dragon is also a good creature, Satan happened to pretend to be a snake since he knows that human beings consider the snake to be a good and wise creature.

My present position is that some Dragons are evil while others are good. More specifically, Qing Long (Azure Dragon) is good (since the Azure Dragon is one of China's Four Sacred Beasts) and Hei Long (Black Dragon) is evil. For in the Huai Nan Zi it is said that the ancestral heroine Nu Wa killed a Black Dragon in order to save Central China. (杀黑龙以济冀州）

Edited by Yun, 14 October 2005 - 03:23 AM.

[Kulong]

Fact is, Christianity is a "Western" religion and its development has nothing to do with Chinese culture.

"Dragons" exist in one form or another in many cultures around the world. Some scientists believe (according to a National Geographic documentary) that the "dragon" is simply something ingrained in the human mind as we evolved over hundreds of thousands of years. Ever since humans started evolving, we had a few very dangerous predators, namely "big cats", falcons, snakes, and something else which I don't recall at the moment. The scientists believe that as we evolved, the traits of these four major predators were eventually "combined" into one single dangerous animal.

I found that theory interesting but still very Eurocentric. The dragon is only seen as "evil" in the West while in China and other parts of Asia, the dragon, while powerful, is generally good and is often used to refer to the emperor.

It has been said that the concept of dragon in the Chinese civilization was first formed when people thought of the Yellow River as a dragon. The Yellow River was essential to growing crops yet when it floods, many people die. The Yellow River is also very winding, almost like a dragon's body. Of course, there are no evidence to back this up so it's just a theory.

So whether the Chinese dragon (or dragons) is evil or not shouldn't be determined by Christianity, but by Chinese culture references alone.

[MengTzu]

A Question (especially for Christians):

Is the Chinese Dragon a Satanic symbol?

I'm not talking about myths, I'm saying spiritually, is the Dragon really Satanic or not?

Yuan Zhiming seems to think so, at least to some extent.

However, IMO there is more to it than that. Firstly, Yuan Zhiming also praised Laozi and Yijing in his book "China's Confession", and Laozi was described as a "dragon" by Confucius, and in the Yijing the dragon is an auspicious symbol, not an evil one. Secondly, remember even Satan used to be an angel, thus even if there were one evil dragon or some evil dragons does not necessarily mean that all dragons are evil. Thirdly, AFAIK in old Jewish cultural legends the snake or dragon is also a good creature, Satan happened to pretend to be a snake since he knows that human beings consider the snake to be a good and wise creature.

My present position is that some Dragons are evil while others are good. More specifically, Qing Long (Azure Dragon) is good (since the Azure Dragon is one of China's Four Sacred Beasts) and Hei Long (Black Dragon) is evil. For in the Huai Nan Zi it is said that the ancestral heroine Nu Wa killed a Black Dragon in order to save Central China. (杀黑龙以济冀州）

This is one of the things that Christian missionaries face almost anywhere they go -- the nearly paranoid dilemma that some supernatural beings of non-Christian, non-Judaic culture might be demonic. Of course, in this case, we have a specific case -- the dragon, which is discussed in the Bible as demonic. But at the bottom of all of these claims is an unawareness of cultural context: it is the invention of translators that dragon = long. But there is no guarantee in that, especially since we don't have, objectively, a dragon.

[somechineseperson]

Fact is, Christianity is a "Western" religion and its development has nothing to do with Chinese culture.

"Dragons" exist in one form or another in many cultures around the world. Some scientists believe (according to a National Geographic documentary) that the "dragon" is simply something ingrained in the human mind as we evolved over hundreds of thousands of years. Ever since humans started evolving, we had a few very dangerous predators, namely "big cats", falcons, snakes, and something else which I don't recall at the moment. The scientists believe that as we evolved, the traits of these four major predators were eventually "combined" into one single dangerous animal.

I found that theory interesting but still very Eurocentric. The dragon is only seen as "evil" in the West while in China and other parts of Asia, the dragon, while powerful, is generally good and is often used to refer to the emperor.

It has been said that the concept of dragon in the Chinese civilization was first formed when people thought of the Yellow River as a dragon. The Yellow River was essential to growing crops yet when it floods, many people die. The Yellow River is also very winding, almost like a dragon's body. Of course, there are no evidence to back this up so it's just a theory.

So whether the Chinese dragon (or dragons) is evil or not shouldn't be determined by Christianity, but by Chinese culture references alone.

Christianity is not a "western religion", it is an universal religion like Buddhism. Originally remember Christianity wasn't even European. There is no more a priori affinity between Christianity and European Culture then there is between Christianity and Chinese Culture. The fact that Christian became more "western" while Buddhism became more "Chinese" is purely a contingent factor. One can imagine that in a parallel universe where Christianity spread to and took hold in China and Buddhism spread to and took hold in Europe. In this parallel world Christianity will be labelled as a "Chinese religion" and Buddhism a "western religion".

I believe in God/Shangdi. And God/Shangdi, being the God of China, has everything to do with Chinese Culture.

Still, as I said, I don't believe the Chinese Dragon is necessarily evil. But IMO it is also incorrect to think of the Dragon as always good, for even the ancient Chinese thought of some dragons as evil.

Even in Europe, the Dragon is not always perceived as evil. The Celts, for example, are a very Christian people but their national symbol (as seen on the national flag of Wales) is a Red Dragon.

Also, I believe MengTzu is right, strictly speaking the Chinese Long, the European Dragon and the Biblical Dragon/Snake are three different types of creatures.

But from my perspective, this sort of question is important, because my religious background is a mixture of Christian/Catholic and Chinese/Confucian influences, so without being able to firmly settle this question, I can't even study Yijing, one of the Confucian Classics, in a peaceful frame of mind.

Edited by somechineseperson, 13 October 2005 - 06:55 PM.

[naruwan]

Well, actually Dragon is a very broad discription of a variety of mystical animals.

In myths there are dragons that are nice.

Also dragons that are evil.

Therefore there are many legends featuring a hero killing the dragon.

But that could be more symbolic than anything, since Dragon is also a symbol for the emperor.

But to say dragon is "Satanic" is way off.

Because there is no "Satan" in the Chinese culture.

I am not just talking about no such character called satan, i am saying there's no counter part for Satan in the Chinese myths.

In Chinese hell, leader of the place is a rather just person who will punish you if you did bad.

Hell is not anti-god rather it's helping god in the Chinese myths.

So... are there evil dragons? yes.

Are dragons satanic? no, actually I am not sure if dragons are satanic in the west either.

Are there such thing as dragons?

...... well.... depends on how lose you are with the definition.

[Yun]

This sort of concept can't be rationalized, but there have been numerous accounts by Chinese Christians about having experienced spiritual disturbances arising from objects in their homes with the motif of the Chinese dragon. So to an increasing number of Chinese Christians, the dragon is to be avoided because while it is a cultural symbol for the Chinese, it can be used by demonic forces. To non-Christians who simply don't believe in evil spirits, all this would sound ridiculous, but I have seen the work of such spirits and believe they exist.

I myself have long been neutral on this issue, but recently on the urging of my mother and wife I discarded all objects from my home that bore a dragon motif, including two Chinese seals bought in Shandong. Unfortunately this also included the CHF T-shirt I bought from GZ. Sorry....

I am aware that there are many dragon motifs on the CHF main page, but I would not wish to impose my preferences on others. However, as one of the spiritual effects of the dragon according to Christians is to cause conflict between people, who knows whether changing our banner or background would help reduce the amount of conflict here?

In any case, the dragon was originally the symbol of the king or emperor, and not of the Chinese people themselves - in fact a subject using the dragon symbol was usually an act of treason punishable by execution. It was only after the 1911 Revolution that the dragon was appropriated as a national symbol by the Chinese; ironically this was partly because the Qing had started using a blue dragon on a yellow background as its state flag in the late 19th century. So to me the dragon does not equate to China, only to imperial rule.

[somechineseperson]

Well, actually Dragon is a very broad discription of a variety of mystical animals.

In myths there are dragons that are nice.

Also dragons that are evil.

Therefore there are many legends featuring a hero killing the dragon.

But that could be more symbolic than anything, since Dragon is also a symbol for the emperor.

But to say dragon is "Satanic" is way off.

Because there is no "Satan" in the Chinese culture.

I am not just talking about no such character called satan, i am saying there's no counter part for Satan in the Chinese myths.

In Chinese hell, leader of the place is a rather just person who will punish you if you did bad.

Hell is not anti-god rather it's helping god in the Chinese myths.

So... are there evil dragons? yes.

Are dragons satanic? no, actually I am not sure if dragons are satanic in the west either.

Are there such thing as dragons?

...... well.... depends on how lose you are with the definition.

You are basically right. There is a Supereme God (i.e. Huang Tian Shang Di 皇天上帝) in the Chinese system, but no counterpart for Satan. (let alone Angra Manyu in Persian Zoroastrianism. I think the Chinese system is probably the least dualistic of all the major world spiritual systems) The Chinese did not even have a counterpart for hell until the arrival of Buddhism, and even then, the leader of hell, Yan Wang, is not really evil, but just a servant of Huang Tian Shang Di who punishes evil. The ancient Chinese had no conception of the Fall, that certain beings openly rebelled against God. But nonetheless in the ancient Chinese systems I think there are evil beings, just no one as "big" as Satan.

But AFAIK in Buddhism there is a counterpart of Satan, i.e. Mara. Am I right?

[naruwan]

To give out an example of how there's not just one kind of dragon, the following are mythical animals commonly referred just as Dragons.


蛟龍 Jiao Long, said to have scales. Often discribed to live in rivers.
應龍 Yin Long, Dragons with wings.
虯龍 Qio Long, Dragons with horns.
螭龍 Chi Long, Dragons with out horns.

Also it's said Dragon gave birth to 9 children.

There are two legends about who the 9 children are.

囚牛, 睚眥, 嘲風, 蒲牢, 狻猊, 贔屓, 狴犴, 負屓, 螭吻
or 贔屓, 螭吻, 蒲牢, 狴犴, 饕餮, 蚣蝮, 睚眥, 狻猊, 椒圖

These dragon like figures are often seen incooperated in Chinese Architecture.

For example, 贔屓 Bixi is the turtle like figure seen under Stone Tablets.

椒圖 jiaotu is seen on door nobs.

螭吻 chiwen is seen on the spine of roof tops, shaped like a whale.

嘲風 Chaofong is on the edge of the roof tops.

You are basically right. There is a Supereme God (i.e. Huang Tian Shang Di 皇天上帝) in the Chinese system, but no counterpart for Satan. (let alone Angra Manyu in Persian Zoroastrianism. I think the Chinese system is probably the least dualistic of all the major world spiritual systems) The Chinese did not even have a counterpart for hell until the arrival of Buddhism, and even then, the leader of hell, Yan Wang, is not really evil, but just a servant of Huang Tian Shang Di who punishes evil. The ancient Chinese had no conception of the Fall, that certain beings openly rebelled against God. But nonetheless in the ancient Chinese systems I think there are evil beings, just no one as "big" as Satan.

But AFAIK in Buddhism there is a counterpart of Satan, i.e. Mara. Am I right?

Mara is equivalent of 閻王 YanWang in Chinese legends. Though in Chinese legends, Yanwang isn't a bad figure. If anything, he is depicted as a fair yet strict judge.

[Enkidu]

Christianity is not a "western religion", it is an universal religion like Buddhism.

Yes this statement is correct. But if you believe Christianity is a universal religion, why does the dragon which is just a symbol cause you to have difficulty studying the Yijing. Christianity as a universal religion should be able to accept all other cultures, forms, symbols, spritula beliefs.

[Yun]

AFAIK in Buddhism there is a counterpart of Satan, i.e. Mara. Am I right?

Mara is actually the origin of the Chinese word 'mo', which is used to refer to demons and is also the term for the Devil (mogui) in Chinese Christianity. Mara was the personification of evil in Buddhism, but was adopted as a "righteous avenger" by the early Daoist Shangqing and Lingbao religious sects.

For some reading on "evil beings" in Chinese religion (which does not, of course, deal with dragons), I recommend Richard von Glahn's recent "The Sinister Way: The Divine and the Demonic in Chinese Religious Culture" (Berkeley: University of California Press, 2004). Von Glahn effectively debunks the prevailing view in scholarship (held by Benjamin Schwartz and Wolfram Eberhard, for example) that "pre-modern China lacked a concept of evil". He has some very interesting studies of Chinese beliefs in plague demons, mountain goblins and even an evil demon who became a God of Wealth (Wutong).

[Enkidu]

I myself have long been neutral on this issue, but recently on the urging of my mother and wife I discarded all objects from my home that bore a dragon motif, including two Chinese seals bought in Shandong. Unfortunately this also included the CHF T-shirt I bought from GZ. Sorry....

I am aware that there are many dragon motifs on the CHF main page, but I would not wish to impose my preferences on others. However, as one of the spiritual effects of the dragon according to Christians is to cause conflict between people, who knows whether changing our banner or background would help reduce the amount of conflict here?

I am going to make this very blunt also. Coming from a staunch Catholic family and whose 2 uncles work for the church, this is the first time I am reading such nonsense. Maybe you should just put on Christ's shephered gard and walk all around singapore with the sheperd's stick with 12 other blokes tailing you. Are you also prohibited from writing the chinese character for "dragon" because it looks a lot like a dragon?? I don't feel any conflict, and I don't even notice there are dragon symbols all around the CHF main page!! The contents of this thread borders on stupidity and religious extremism.

[Yun]

Christianity as a universal religion should be able to accept all other cultures, forms, symbols, spritula beliefs.

This is a fallacy. Chistianity is a universal religion in the same sense as the Chinese used to think their civilization was universal. In other words, it is seen as the only true one, but applicable to all peoples and countries. It is not about being able to accept all things, but rather being absolutely true and relevant in all contexts and settings.

Buddhism and Christianity are both universal in their claims, but the fundamental difference is that Christianity is centered on monotheism, while Buddhism is not. This gives Buddhism a much bigger room for maneuver in accommodating other beliefs - for example to see them as partial manifestations of the Buddhist truth.

[Yun]

I am going to make this very blunt also. Coming from a staunch Catholic family and whose 2 uncles work for the church, this is the first time I am reading such nonsense. Maybe you should just put on Christ's shephered gard and walk all around singapore with the sheperd's stick with 12 other blokes tailing you. Are you also prohibited from writing the chinese character for "dragon" because it looks a lot like a dragon?? I don't feel any conflict, and I don't even notice there are dragon symbols all around the CHF main page!! The contents of this thread borders on stupidity and religious extremism.

Whoah, I see the dragon is already making someone lose his temper. Did you notice I was being both very clear about not imposing my beliefs, and was expressing my views in a humorous way?

If you look closely at the background of the CHF page, you will see a pattern made up of many dragons. But I am not requesting that anything be changed. Note again that I was being tongue-in-cheek with a Also, you probably don't see much conflict on CHF because you are not a mod and do not have to spend hours dealing with quarrels in which people call each other 'stupid'.

I consider it to be extremism when your view on dragons leads you to call someone else's view 'stupid'. Most Catholics do not see dragons in the same way as evangelical or pentecostal Protestants do - they don't see demons in the same way either. So I don't think you need to assume that there is only one Christian way to look at the question. Like I said, I used to be neutral myself.

Maybe you should just put on Christ's shephered gard and walk all around singapore with the sheperd's stick with 12 other blokes tailing you.

Maybe you should reflect on whether this is more an insult to me or a show of disrespect to what Christ did. For one thing, he never wore a shepherd's garb - he only described himself metaphorically as a 'good shepherd' to sheep like you and me. For another, his walking around with 12 other blokes eventually got him crucified for our sake I'm assuming you believe all this as much as your uncles do.

[Lin Duanwen]

Mara is equivalent of 閻王 YanWang in Chinese legends. Though in Chinese legends, Yanwang isn't a bad figure. If anything, he is depicted as a fair yet strict judge.

Mara is equivalent of "mo" which is demon. Yamaraja equivalent of "Yanluo Wang".

[Yun]

Let me make it clear on behalf of the staff that anti-Christian hostility will be treated the same as hostility to any other religion on CHF - i.e. an official warning, followed by a suspension for the second offence. Enkidu may be Catholic, but his words expressed hostility to the beliefs of members of another group of Christians (i.e. Protestants). There is never any justification for calling another person's religious beliefs 'stupid'. The world is bigger and wider than such a narrow concept of intelligence may lead you to believe.

Enkidu gets a 10% warning for his last post.

BTW, I didn't want to mention my views on dragons openly at first, knowing what intense emotions it would stir up among many members to whom the dragon is a cherished cultural icon. But since Somechineseperson brought it up and wanted to know our views, it would be dishonest of me to keep quiet about it. Before we proceed further, let me make it clear that I am not calling any of you a demon-worshipper or Satanist or anything of the sort. So leave out the accusations of intolerance, extremism, and stupidity. Thanks.