189 replies to this topic

[Yun]

The original title of the thread was something like "Is the Chinese dragon a satanic symbol?" Somechineseperson is the one who chose the title and started the thread. He is a recently converted Christian, but also a Confucian and Chinese nationalist, and he is trying to figure out how these ideological systems can co-exist in one person. You can see why the issue of the 'long' would be important to him.

[kyli]

How about my words?

Your words is find for me, guess I would take the case to rest.

Snowybeagle's right...according to a poll, I think there are quite a number of Christians in CHF.

As stated, this is China History Forum not Christian History Forum - we should always keep that in mind. Religion will always crop up and at times nastily, so we should all exercise self-control and the Golden Mean when discussing such issues.

That's my two cents' worth as a Christian who, incidentally, have no particular opinions as to whether dragons are satanic or not.

I knew there are a lot of christians in this forum. I have been already outnumber by 4 to 1, just kidding .

I did read this thread from start, so I knew you had already make it clear that you didn't have opinion on this matter. My post wasn't direct on all christians just the fundamentalism, hopefully I didn't offend any of you.

The original title of the thread was something like "Is the Chinese dragon a satanic symbol?" Somechineseperson is the one who chose the title and started the thread. He is a recently converted Christian, but also a Confucian and Chinese nationalist, and he is trying to figure out how these ideological systems can co-exist in one person. You can see why the issue of the 'long' would be important to him.

Every person will have their identity crisis in their life, especially when there are conflict of believe that you need to adjust. I have no problem for him to ask advice, but somechineseperson might make the title quick offensive without consideration for other religion or culture. I really had hard time to digest some of the fundamentalism believe, especially the people that would frankly accuse other religion as satanic. I am not saying about you, since I am perfectly find with your action regarding the Dragon. Personally I would also never keep Jesus status in my home, no disrespect to you or christians. It is just I have encounter some christians who would openly attack Buddhism as satanic religion in my doorstep. I just find it is very offensive, and seriously don't think it would be wise to accuse chinese dragon as satanic. Since it might become a religions conflict, I am hopping that christians should take more consideration for others believe. But I guess i also am too offensive in this issue, so I will put this issue to rest. Best regards .

[soka norman]

From what i know,is not a single being call satan,but a multitudine of demons under the lidership of their boss ,satan.In christianity is not a dualism because demons are not all powerfull as the all powerfull God.
Some propose insetad of demons name ,that of siner angels.

In many cultures(sumerian,semitic,indo-european etc) are depicted battles betwin gods and the dragon.From here the evil depiction of the dragon.

In the Bible apear a misterios episode.The jews are bitten by snakes.Moses build a coper snake on a stik.The bitten jews look at that snake and become cure.

[soka norman]

When Pangu ,the dragon whit a dog head(dragon who cook the egg of creation) apear for the first time in history?
Is belive that this simbol is invented by chinese,from chinese is take by the sarmatians in 200 bc as their flag. From sarmatians is take by the dacians(ancestors of romanians).Not only the flag but also the story behinde the dragon(whit the egg and creation) is present in the dacian religion.
But arheologists discovere in Romania ,an ware from 400 bc ,on which is draw the dragon whit dog head.
If is not a fake made by romanian arheologists, then sarmatian and chinese take the simbol of Pangu dragon from dacians.

http://images.google...ttp...hl=ro&lr=

http://images.google...ttp...hl=ro&lr=

The battle betwin the thracian hero and the dragon become in christian time ,the batlle betwin saint George and the dragon(devil).


The dacians throw arrows to sky in order to kill the dragons from the clouds that bring storm.In romanian folclor the guys call solomonari supose have the power to control the clouds and to ride the dragon.

[soka norman]

I forgot to mention that im intersted when the Pangu dragon apear in chinese culture ,and if is older the 4 century bc.As i study the dacian religion and this dragon is very present in this religion.


The draco was originally developed by the Sarmatians and Alans, cavalry peoples of the steppes. The earliest evidence of the Draco in Dacia was found on 4th century BC pottery discovered in the Prahova county of Romania. On Trajan's Column the Dacian soldiers are often represented carrying a Dacian Draco: there are no less than 20 representations of the Draco. The only copy left was found in Germany, which, was probably a trophy won by the Roman troops from the wars with the Dacians. After the Dacian wars the draco was adopted by Roman cavalry.

[Yun]

I have never heard of Pangu as a dragon with a dog head. The Chinese origin myth of Pangu and the egg (which actually appeared relatively late, perhaps in the Han period) has him as a giant. The southern ethnic groups' (e.g. Yao) myth about their being descended from a dog named Panhu/Pangu that belonged to the legendary Chinese ruler Gaoxin/Di Ku may be related to the other Pangu myth in some way, but there is no conclusive evidence. See http://www.chinahist...p?showtopic=192

[overseachinese]

excuse me, but i wanted to ask this question for a long time, somehow been put off for other things.
this is a good opportunity to ask:

can a christian treat such items eg dragon, in this case, or even a budda statue, as a decorative art piece for its value and admiration purpose only?

Well. It is not explicitly stated that we should treat them as a decoration, but to avoid confusion we avoid having such item.

[tung2sai]

Christians are human beings just like anyone else.
From what I'm understanding and experience, a lot of them, the Chinese Christians, do not keep many objects such as dragons or buddha statues, because it is associated with other religions. However, they will display maybe calligraphy, paintings or Chinese versions of Christian apparel, something that is just not associated with worshipping it.
It's just that association they don't want to touch and it's understandable. Even if not to avoid confusion they just don't want to be near objects that has some link to being worship before. This is relating to the issue of idolatry.

I do know that in some communities, the Christians did offend many people because they kept insisting to not hold any dragon and extended to lion dances or wearing red. It happened in my hometown. The strange thing was even though they kept remarking about how the local Chinese shouldn't do those, they didn't say anything about other people (such as the local martial artists or people with a strong interests in Chinese culture) who held their own lion/dragon/fan dances.

Some people kept pulling out quotes from the Bible to support their causes, but after a long period of partially studying it, as in from what the original Hebrew meanings or other interpretations, the history and other opinions in Academia, and some hard soul thinking...A lot of things these Chinese Christians do don't make sense. For Christianity in general.
There's a very long list of reasons I have, but it's another topic.

[Polynesia]

A Question (especially for Christians):

Is the Chinese Dragon a Satanic symbol?

I'm not talking about myths, I'm saying spiritually, is the Dragon really Satanic or not?

Yuan Zhiming seems to think so, at least to some extent.

However, IMO there is more to it than that. Firstly, Yuan Zhiming also praised Laozi and Yijing in his book "China's Confession", and Laozi was described as a "dragon" by Confucius, and in the Yijing the dragon is an auspicious symbol, not an evil one. Secondly, remember even Satan used to be an angel, thus even if there were one evil dragon or some evil dragons does not necessarily mean that all dragons are evil. Thirdly, AFAIK in old Jewish cultural legends the snake or dragon is also a good creature, Satan happened to pretend to be a snake since he knows that human beings consider the snake to be a good and wise creature.

My present position is that some Dragons are evil while others are good. More specifically, Qing Long (Azure Dragon) is good (since the Azure Dragon is one of China's Four Sacred Beasts) and Hei Long (Black Dragon) is evil. For in the Huai Nan Zi it is said that the ancestral heroine Nu Wa killed a Black Dragon in order to save Central China. (杀黑龙以济冀州）

You can't compare Dragon Mythology to Christian Religion, Demons in Asia are not seen in the same light
A Demon would be something un-natural , given the title of Demon does not put uder the catagory
of evil, Demons have been named Guardians in many Asiatic Cultures. Christian Religion speaks of hell
as a complete seperate order from a Heaven where which the Devil or Satan resides. Demons in Christain
religion are not good, but are souls cast out of Heaven or Fallen Angels.
These Winged men or Creatures of Christian faith however - Birdmen
can be said to have come from EASTERN Cultures
not East from west , but west from the east

Example - Tengu is one of the oldest creatures and clans in Japan
These Birdmen are Demons and part creators of Japan
but not spoken of as purely evil, like life, all things are not black and white.
and in Japanese mythology creatures are not subjected to that out-look only

In Persia- Winged Men also appear with statues of these Winged men
and part winged Lion.

These Religions usually are the SUN Cults- Men with wings in a Culture or society
usually represent People from the SUN - or Fire -

Migrations of the East Asian into the West may also have some things to do with the
similarities- Ancient Persia has a history Asiatic groups in the Empire.

The question isn't - is the Dragon a Satanic symbol
the question is - do parts of the Christian religion derive from Eastern Mythology

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[Polynesia]

You can't compare Dragon Mythology to Christian Religion, Demons in Asia are not seen in the same light
A Demon would be something un-natural , given the title of Demon does not put uder the catagory
of evil, Demons have been named Guardians in many Asiatic Cultures. Christian Religion speaks of hell
as a complete seperate order from a Heaven where which the Devil or Satan resides. Demons in Christain
religion are not good, but are souls cast out of Heaven or Fallen Angels.
These Winged men or Creatures of Christian faith however - Birdmen
can be said to have come from EASTERN Cultures
not East from west , but west from the east

Example - Tengu is one of the oldest creatures and clans in Japan
These Birdmen are Demons and part creators of Japan
but not spoken of as purely evil, like life, all things are not black and white.
and in Japanese mythology creatures are not subjected to that out-look only

In Persia- Winged Men also appear with statues of these Winged men
and part winged Lion.

These Religions usually are the SUN Cults- Men with wings in a Culture or society
usually represent People from the SUN - or Fire -

Migrations of the East Asian into the West may also have some things to do with the
similarities- Ancient Persia has a history Asiatic groups in the Empire.

The question isn't - is the Dragon a Satanic symbol
the question is - do parts of the Christian religion derive from Eastern Mythology

Tengu Clans used to also be the Dog People - sort of a Dingo looking fire color mut
These are said to have become the Ninja

The Ainu name the coming people - Children from the Sun or Children of the Sun
which Japan still holds the Sun symbol

Garuda is often associated with Tengu , which would have come from Southeast Asia

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[Polynesia]

Tengu Clans used to also be the Dog People - sort of a Dingo looking fire color mut
These are said to have become the Ninja

The Ainu name the coming people - Children from the Sun or Children of the Sun
which Japan still holds the Sun symbol

Garuda is often associated with Tengu , which would have come from Southeast Asia

Here are more Pictures of the Tengu

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[Polynesia]

Here are more Pictures of the Tengu

Birdmen Have been known in cultures as Preists also - usually the medicine man in a
Culture, healer, Doctor, Spirit man ,
one who talks to spirts

People from the SUN have been associated with people "from the Sunny areas"
as in not from the Northern colder areas

during the times of these legends there were mas migrations from Southeast Asia
to North East Asia

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•  n_korea_skorea_lg.jpg   30.02K   0 downloads

[Shenzheng]

The question isn't - is the Dragon a Satanic symbol
the question is - do parts of the Christian religion derive from Eastern Mythology

From medieval times, real or fabulous characteristics of existing or imaginary animals (such as the griffin, dragon, siren, unicorn, etc.) were common in Christian iconography as symbols of Christ, the devil, virtues, and vices. The origins of this type of symbolism, taken from nature, can be found in antiquity, and particularly in the ancient East.

Eastern literature, as well as the Graeco-Roman literature dependent on it, ascribed to certain animals, whether fabuolus or real, (e.g., the lion, the tiger, the snake, the eagle) a certain connection with the life and action of man and of the gods, and made corresponding religious use of them. This is exemplified in Oriental and Egyptian iconography depicting the worship of animals. Many reminiscences of such animal symbolism can be found in the Old Testament.

From the earliest period, Christian fancy interpreted these animals according to the Old Testament symbolism, and depicted them similarly in Christian art. For example, in the Roman Catacombs are found some which depict what is good (e.g., the lamb or sheep representing the soul of the believer, the dove as an image of the soul, the phoenix rising from its ashes symbolizing Christ's resurrection from the dead. Other symbols what is evil: the serpent or dragon representing the devil. Still others can be interpreted in various senses: the lion, for instance, can represent either Christ or the devil.

An early compilation of such allegorical interpretations of the nature of plants and animals, based on sources from antiquity, is the "Physiologus", a much copied "natural history" from the Middle Ages, the basis for all later bestiaries. Most medieval bestiaries are more or less transcriptions or imitations of the "Physiologus".

The influence of the symbolism of bestiaries can plainly be seen in various medieval traditions. The symbolic use of the bee in the blessing of Easter candles, the blessing of wine on the feast of Saint John as a preventative of poisoning from snake bite. The influence of the symbolism of the bestiaries is manifest in medieval sculpture, both Romanesque and Gothic, and miniature illustrations in books produced before and since the invention of the printing press.

Based on Sauer, J. (1907) Bestiaries. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Retrieved December 8, 2008 from New Advent: <http:// www.newadvent.org/cathen/02529b.htm>.

[Polynesia]

Birdmen Have been known in cultures as Preists also - usually the medicine man in a
Culture, healer, Doctor, Spirit man ,
one who talks to spirts

People from the SUN have been associated with people "from the Sunny areas"
as in not from the Northern colder areas

during the times of these legends there were mas migrations from Southeast Asia
to North East Asia

The Birdmen Staff has inscriptions on it , from healing to summoning spirts
the Famous Monks

There are moe References - I came across one interestig one a few years ago
Japan's Javanes connection - Javanese and Japanese
from the ANU

from a women whos done a considerable amount of research on the subjects

Ann Kumar Professor, Centre for Asian Societies and Histories
Email: Ann.Kumar@anu.edu.au
Phone: + 61 2 6125 3207
Fax: + 61 2 6125 0745
Room: e218 Baldessin Precinct BuildingQualifications
1970, Ph.D. Australian National University
1965, B.A. O.S. A.N.U. Honours, Australian National University
Academic Awards and Distinctions
2003 Centenary Medal
1998-2000 Vice-President, Australian Academy of the Humanities
1997 Honorary Professorship: Research Professor, Nordic Institute of Asian Studies (only the second such appointment made by the Institute)
1992 Fellow, Australian Academy of the Humanities
1988 Dutch Ministry of Education and Sciences Medal
1965 University Medal, A.N.U.
1965 University Women's Prize
Research
Major interests are: the nation-state in contemporary Southeast Asia; Indonesian politics; Indonesian Islam; Impact of the West on Indonesia; Indonesian history; Indonesia's Writing Traditions; Javanese theatre; Early Japanese history.

Present Appointments
Director, International Centre of Excellence for Asia and the Pacific Studies
Professor, Centre for Asian Societies and Histories, Faculty of Asian Studies, Australian National University
Associate Director, Centre for Research on Language Change, Australian National University
Previous Appointments
1993 - 1996 Dean, Faculty of Asian Studies
1988 Reader, Asian History Centre, ANU
1986 - 1992 Head, Asian History Centre, ANU
1981 - 1987 Senior Lecturer, Asian History Centre, ANU
1972 - 1980 Lecturer, Department of Asian Civilisations, ANU
1971 Senior Tutor, Department of Asian Civilisations, ANU

Courses Taught

Islam Alternatives in Southeast Asia
Indonesia: Politics, Society and Development
Representing Asia on Film: Southeast Asia
Representing Asia on Film: East Asia
Colonialism and Resistance in Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Philippines (Indonesia component)
State, Society and Politics in Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Philippines (Indonesia Component)
Nationalism and Social Change in Asia
Foreign Policy and Nationalism in Southeast Asia
Modern Indonesia
Approaches to the Study of Society
Islam: History and Institutions (Indonesian topics)
Technology, Innovation and Society in Asia (Indonesian section)
Arts Faculty course LANG 3002: Translation Across Languages: Specialised Material
Indonesia's Heritage
Clio in Asia
Islamic Alternatives in Southeast Asia
Honours reading courses
Readings in Southeast Asian Culture
Readings in Asian Societies and Histories A
Readings in Asian Societies and Histories B

Publications
Books
Surapati, Man and Legend: a Study of Three Babad Traditions Leiden, (E.J. Brill), pp.421 (1976)
The Diary of a Javanese Muslim: Religion, politics and the pesantren 1883-1886 Faculty of Asian Studies Monographs: New Series No. 7, Canberra, pp.177 (1985)
Illuminations: Writing Traditions of Indonesia (with John H. McGlynn), New York and Tokyo (Weatherhill), pp.298 (1996)
Java and Modern Europe: Ambiguous Encounters London (Curzon), pp.459pp (1996)
Candi Bahasa (with John H. McGlynn), forthcoming.


Book Chapters

Indonesia and Malaysia in The Civilizations of Monsoon Asia A.L. Basham (ed.), Sydney (Angus and Robertson), pp.133-178 (1974)
The Peasantry and the State on Java: Changes of Relationship, Seventeenth to Nineteenth Centuries in Indonesia: Australian Perspectives James J. Fox et al., Canberra, Research School of Pacific Studies, pp.577-599 (1980)
A Legacy of Two Homelands: Chinese Manuscript Literature in Illuminations (with Ian Proudfoot, Kumar and McGlynn eds., pp.201-212 (1996)
Java: a Self-critical examination of the nation and its history in The Last Stand of Asian Autonomies: Responses to Modernity in the Diverse States of Southeast Asia and Korea, 1750-1900 A.J.S.Reid ed., Macmillan, pp.321-343 (1997)
Pancasila Plus, Pancasila Minus in Islam: Essays on Scripture, Thought and Society: A Festschrift in Honour of Anthony H. Johns Peter G. Riddell and Tony Street eds., Leiden, Brill; vol. XXVII of the series 'Islamic Philosophy, Theology and Science', edited by H. Daiber and D. Pingree (1997)
Imagining Women in Javanese Religion: Goddesses, Ascetes, Queens, Consorts, Wives in Other Pasts: Women, Gender and History in Early Modern Southeast Asia Barbara Andaya, ed.
No gift or imitation: the birth of modern historiography and political thought in Java in Modernity in Southeast Asia volume ed. G. Lockhart (forthcoming)
The State and Status of the Nation in Autonomy and Disintegration in Indonesia Damien Kingsbury and Harry Aveling eds., Routledge Curzon, London and New York (2003)



Journal Articles

Dipanagara (1787-1855) in Indonesia No.13, pp.69-118 (April 1972)
Javanese Historiography in and of the 'Colonial Period': a Case Study in Perceptions of the Past in Southeast Asia Anthony Reid and David Marr, eds., Asian Studies Association of Australia Southeast Asia Series No. 4, pp.187-206 (1979)
Developments in four societies over the sixteenth to eighteenth centuries in The Development of Indonesian Society in Harry Aveling (ed.), Queensland U.P., pp.1-44 (1980)
Javanese Court Society and Politics in the Late Eighteenth Century: the record of a Lady Soldier: Part I: The Religious, Social and Economic Life of the Court in Indonesia 29 pp.1-46 (May 1980)
Javanese Court Society and Politics in the Late Eighteenth Century: the record of a Lady Soldier: Part II: Political Developments: the Courts and the Company 1784-1791 in Indonesia 30 pp.67-111 (October 1980)
"The 'Suryengalagan Affair' of 1883 and its Successors: Born Leaders in Changed Times in BKI 138 2/3, pp.251-284 (1982)
On Variation in Babads in BKI 140 2/3, pp.223-247 (1984)
Opening a 'Life' in Asian Studies Association of Australia Review vol.10, no. 2, pp.2-9 (Nov. 1986)
Literary Approaches to Slavery and the Indies Enlightenment: van Hogendorp's Kraspoekol in Indonesia (Cornell University), 43, pp.43-65 (1987)
Islam, the Chinese and Indonesian Historiography in Journal of Asian Studies (Review Article), vol. 46, no.3, pp.603-616 (August 1987)
Ethnicity, Gender, and Subordination: Another Return to Old Batavia in ASAA Review (Review Article), vol 12:1, pp.94-100 (1988)
A Swedish View of Batavia in 1783-4: Hornstedt's Letters in Archipel 37, pp.247-262 (1989)
Article on Indonesian studies in Australia in ASAA Review (1990)
Kingship and Religion: Looking from Java to Japan in Semaian 5, Looking in odd Mirrors: the Java Sea VJH Houben, HMJ Maier and W van der Molen (eds), Rijksuniversiteit, Leiden, pp.258-288 (1992)
Does Japanese Have an Austronesian Stratum in Pan-Asiatic Linguistics: Proceedings of the Fourth International Symposium on Languages and Linguistics January 8-10 1996 Institute of Language and Culture, Mahidol University, vol.l1 pp.522-543 (1996)
Explorings and Reflections on Southeast Asian History in Our Cultural Heritage John Bigelow ed., The Australian Academy of the Humanities, Canberra, pp.170-178 (1997)
An Indonesian Element in the Yayoi: The evidence of Biological Anthropology in Anthropological Science 106/3, pp.265-276 (1998)
Encyclopedia-izing and the Organization of Knowledge: A Cross-Cultural Perspective in BKI vol. 155-3, pp.470-488 (1999)
Lexical Evidence for Early Contact Between Indonesian Languages and Japanese in Oceanic Linguistics 39/2, pp.219-255 (December 2000)
The Refugee Crisis and the Humanities in Symposium 22 (October 2002)
Numerous reviews in American, Canadian, European and Southeast-Asian journals.
Encyclopaedia contributions
Sarikat Islam in Encyclopaedia of Islam (French edition, 1995) (1994)
The Wali Sanga in Early Modern History, Didier Muller Heritage Encyclopaedia Anthony Reid ed. (1996)
Chinese Manuscript Literature in Didier Muller Heritage Encyclopaedia (with Ian Proudfoot), John H. McGlynn ed.
Memberships
1996-: Fellow of the Australian Academy of the Humanities. Treasurer 1996-2003; Vice-President Academy Council 1998-9