189 replies to this topic

[Polynesia]

From medieval times, real or fabulous characteristics of existing or imaginary animals (such as the griffin, dragon, siren, unicorn, etc.) were common in Christian iconography as symbols of Christ, the devil, virtues, and vices. The origins of this type of symbolism, taken from nature, can be found in antiquity, and particularly in the ancient East.

Eastern literature, as well as the Graeco-Roman literature dependent on it, ascribed to certain animals, whether fabuolus or real, (e.g., the lion, the tiger, the snake, the eagle) a certain connection with the life and action of man and of the gods, and made corresponding religious use of them. This is exemplified in Oriental and Egyptian iconography depicting the worship of animals. Many reminiscences of such animal symbolism can be found in the Old Testament.

From the earliest period, Christian fancy interpreted these animals according to the Old Testament symbolism, and depicted them similarly in Christian art. For example, in the Roman Catacombs are found some which depict what is good (e.g., the lamb or sheep representing the soul of the believer, the dove as an image of the soul, the phoenix rising from its ashes symbolizing Christ's resurrection from the dead. Other symbols what is evil: the serpent or dragon representing the devil. Still others can be interpreted in various senses: the lion, for instance, can represent either Christ or the devil.

An early compilation of such allegorical interpretations of the nature of plants and animals, based on sources from antiquity, is the "Physiologus", a much copied "natural history" from the Middle Ages, the basis for all later bestiaries. Most medieval bestiaries are more or less transcriptions or imitations of the "Physiologus".

The influence of the symbolism of bestiaries can plainly be seen in various medieval traditions. The symbolic use of the bee in the blessing of Easter candles, the blessing of wine on the feast of Saint John as a preventative of poisoning from snake bite. The influence of the symbolism of the bestiaries is manifest in medieval sculpture, both Romanesque and Gothic, and miniature illustrations in books produced before and since the invention of the printing press.

Based on Sauer, J. (1907) Bestiaries. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Retrieved December 8, 2008 from New Advent: <http:// www.newadvent.org/cathen/02529b.htm>.

You are about 10,000 years behind- Jomon Japan was at least 15kya- I don't think we're talking about the same thing

[Polynesia]

The Birdmen Staff has inscriptions on it , from healing to summoning spirts
the Famous Monks

There are moe References - I came across one interestig one a few years ago
Japan's Javanes connection - Javanese and Japanese
from the ANU

from a women whos done a considerable amount of research on the subjects

Ann Kumar Professor, Centre for Asian Societies and Histories
Email: Ann.Kumar@anu.edu.au
Phone: + 61 2 6125 3207
Fax: + 61 2 6125 0745
Room: e218 Baldessin Precinct Building[/size]Qualifications
1970, Ph.D. Australian National University
1965, B.A. O.S. A.N.U. Honours, Australian National University
Academic Awards and Distinctions
2003 Centenary Medal
1998-2000 Vice-President, Australian Academy of the Humanities
1997 Honorary Professorship: Research Professor, Nordic Institute of Asian Studies (only the second such appointment made by the Institute)
1992 Fellow, Australian Academy of the Humanities
1988 Dutch Ministry of Education and Sciences Medal
1965 University Medal, A.N.U.
1965 University Women's Prize
Research
Major interests are: the nation-state in contemporary Southeast Asia; Indonesian politics; Indonesian Islam; Impact of the West on Indonesia; Indonesian history; Indonesia's Writing Traditions; Javanese theatre; Early Japanese history.

Present Appointments
Director, International Centre of Excellence for Asia and the Pacific Studies
Professor, Centre for Asian Societies and Histories, Faculty of Asian Studies, Australian National University
Associate Director, Centre for Research on Language Change, Australian National University
Previous Appointments
1993 - 1996 Dean, Faculty of Asian Studies
1988 Reader, Asian History Centre, ANU
1986 - 1992 Head, Asian History Centre, ANU
1981 - 1987 Senior Lecturer, Asian History Centre, ANU
1972 - 1980 Lecturer, Department of Asian Civilisations, ANU
1971 Senior Tutor, Department of Asian Civilisations, ANU

Courses Taught

Islam Alternatives in Southeast Asia
Indonesia: Politics, Society and Development
Representing Asia on Film: Southeast Asia
Representing Asia on Film: East Asia
Colonialism and Resistance in Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Philippines (Indonesia component)
State, Society and Politics in Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Philippines (Indonesia Component)
Nationalism and Social Change in Asia
Foreign Policy and Nationalism in Southeast Asia
Modern Indonesia
Approaches to the Study of Society
Islam: History and Institutions (Indonesian topics)
Technology, Innovation and Society in Asia (Indonesian section)
Arts Faculty course LANG 3002: Translation Across Languages: Specialised Material
Indonesia's Heritage
Clio in Asia
Islamic Alternatives in Southeast Asia
Honours reading courses
Readings in Southeast Asian Culture
Readings in Asian Societies and Histories A
Readings in Asian Societies and Histories B

Publications
Books
Surapati, Man and Legend: a Study of Three Babad Traditions Leiden, (E.J. Brill), pp.421 (1976)
The Diary of a Javanese Muslim: Religion, politics and the pesantren 1883-1886 Faculty of Asian Studies Monographs: New Series No. 7, Canberra, pp.177 (1985)
Illuminations: Writing Traditions of Indonesia (with John H. McGlynn), New York and Tokyo (Weatherhill), pp.298 (1996)
Java and Modern Europe: Ambiguous Encounters London (Curzon), pp.459pp (1996)
Candi Bahasa (with John H. McGlynn), forthcoming.


Book Chapters

Indonesia and Malaysia in The Civilizations of Monsoon Asia A.L. Basham (ed.), Sydney (Angus and Robertson), pp.133-178 (1974)
The Peasantry and the State on Java: Changes of Relationship, Seventeenth to Nineteenth Centuries in Indonesia: Australian Perspectives James J. Fox et al., Canberra, Research School of Pacific Studies, pp.577-599 (1980)
A Legacy of Two Homelands: Chinese Manuscript Literature in Illuminations (with Ian Proudfoot, Kumar and McGlynn eds., pp.201-212 (1996)
Java: a Self-critical examination of the nation and its history in The Last Stand of Asian Autonomies: Responses to Modernity in the Diverse States of Southeast Asia and Korea, 1750-1900 A.J.S.Reid ed., Macmillan, pp.321-343 (1997)
Pancasila Plus, Pancasila Minus in Islam: Essays on Scripture, Thought and Society: A Festschrift in Honour of Anthony H. Johns Peter G. Riddell and Tony Street eds., Leiden, Brill; vol. XXVII of the series 'Islamic Philosophy, Theology and Science', edited by H. Daiber and D. Pingree (1997)
Imagining Women in Javanese Religion: Goddesses, Ascetes, Queens, Consorts, Wives in Other Pasts: Women, Gender and History in Early Modern Southeast Asia Barbara Andaya, ed.
No gift or imitation: the birth of modern historiography and political thought in Java in Modernity in Southeast Asia volume ed. G. Lockhart (forthcoming)
The State and Status of the Nation in Autonomy and Disintegration in Indonesia Damien Kingsbury and Harry Aveling eds., Routledge Curzon, London and New York (2003)



Journal Articles

Dipanagara (1787-1855) in Indonesia No.13, pp.69-118 (April 1972)
Javanese Historiography in and of the 'Colonial Period': a Case Study in Perceptions of the Past in Southeast Asia Anthony Reid and David Marr, eds., Asian Studies Association of Australia Southeast Asia Series No. 4, pp.187-206 (1979)
Developments in four societies over the sixteenth to eighteenth centuries in The Development of Indonesian Society in Harry Aveling (ed.), Queensland U.P., pp.1-44 (1980)
Javanese Court Society and Politics in the Late Eighteenth Century: the record of a Lady Soldier: Part I: The Religious, Social and Economic Life of the Court in Indonesia 29 pp.1-46 (May 1980)
Javanese Court Society and Politics in the Late Eighteenth Century: the record of a Lady Soldier: Part II: Political Developments: the Courts and the Company 1784-1791 in Indonesia 30 pp.67-111 (October 1980)
"The 'Suryengalagan Affair' of 1883 and its Successors: Born Leaders in Changed Times in BKI 138 2/3, pp.251-284 (1982)
On Variation in Babads in BKI 140 2/3, pp.223-247 (1984)
Opening a 'Life' in Asian Studies Association of Australia Review vol.10, no. 2, pp.2-9 (Nov. 1986)
Literary Approaches to Slavery and the Indies Enlightenment: van Hogendorp's Kraspoekol in Indonesia (Cornell University), 43, pp.43-65 (1987)
Islam, the Chinese and Indonesian Historiography in Journal of Asian Studies (Review Article), vol. 46, no.3, pp.603-616 (August 1987)
Ethnicity, Gender, and Subordination: Another Return to Old Batavia in ASAA Review (Review Article), vol 12:1, pp.94-100 (1988)
A Swedish View of Batavia in 1783-4: Hornstedt's Letters in Archipel 37, pp.247-262 (1989)
Article on Indonesian studies in Australia in ASAA Review (1990)
Kingship and Religion: Looking from Java to Japan in Semaian 5, Looking in odd Mirrors: the Java Sea VJH Houben, HMJ Maier and W van der Molen (eds), Rijksuniversiteit, Leiden, pp.258-288 (1992)
Does Japanese Have an Austronesian Stratum in Pan-Asiatic Linguistics: Proceedings of the Fourth International Symposium on Languages and Linguistics January 8-10 1996 Institute of Language and Culture, Mahidol University, vol.l1 pp.522-543 (1996)
Explorings and Reflections on Southeast Asian History in Our Cultural Heritage John Bigelow ed., The Australian Academy of the Humanities, Canberra, pp.170-178 (1997)
An Indonesian Element in the Yayoi: The evidence of Biological Anthropology in Anthropological Science 106/3, pp.265-276 (1998)
Encyclopedia-izing and the Organization of Knowledge: A Cross-Cultural Perspective in BKI vol. 155-3, pp.470-488 (1999)
Lexical Evidence for Early Contact Between Indonesian Languages and Japanese in Oceanic Linguistics 39/2, pp.219-255 (December 2000)
The Refugee Crisis and the Humanities in Symposium 22 (October 2002)
Numerous reviews in American, Canadian, European and Southeast-Asian journals.
Encyclopaedia contributions
Sarikat Islam in Encyclopaedia of Islam (French edition, 1995) (1994)
The Wali Sanga in Early Modern History, Didier Muller Heritage Encyclopaedia Anthony Reid ed. (1996)
Chinese Manuscript Literature in Didier Muller Heritage Encyclopaedia (with Ian Proudfoot), John H. McGlynn ed.
Memberships
1996-: Fellow of the Australian Academy of the Humanities. Treasurer 1996-2003; Vice-President Academy Council 1998-9

Shenzheng I don't think we're talking about the same thing, you're about 8-10ky behind

[kaiselin]

You can't compare Dragon Mythology to Christian Religion, Demons in Asia are not seen in the same light
A Demon would be something un-natural , given the title of Demon does not put uder the catagory
of evil, Demons have been named Guardians in many Asiatic Cultures. Christian Religion speaks of hell
as a complete seperate order from a Heaven where which the Devil or Satan resides. Demons in Christain
religion are not good, but are souls cast out of Heaven or Fallen Angels.
These Winged men or Creatures of Christian faith however - Birdmen
can be said to have come from EASTERN Cultures
not East from west , but west from the east

Example - Tengu is one of the oldest creatures and clans in Japan
These Birdmen are Demons and part creators of Japan
but not spoken of as purely evil, like life, all things are not black and white.
and in Japanese mythology creatures are not subjected to that out-look only

In Persia- Winged Men also appear with statues of these Winged men
and part winged Lion.

These Religions usually are the SUN Cults- Men with wings in a Culture or society
usually represent People from the SUN - or Fire -

Migrations of the East Asian into the West may also have some things to do with the
similarities- Ancient Persia has a history Asiatic groups in the Empire.

The question isn't - is the Dragon a Satanic symbol
the question is - do parts of the Christian religion derive from Eastern Mythology

While I agree 100% with the statement that you can not compare Dragon/ Long Mythology to Christian Religion. In fact you can directly blame the church for the misinterpretation of the Chinese Longby compring it to a Westen Dragon.

I am not quite sure where you are going with the bird man... at least as far as the Guada is concerned. It is not a dragon, and is in fact an enemy of serpents and dragons.

[Polynesia]

While I agree 100% with the statement that you can not compare Dragon/ Long Mythology to Christian Religion. In fact you can directly blame the church for the misinterpretation of the Chinese Longby compring it to a Westen Dragon.

I am not quite sure where you are going with the bird man... at least as far as the Guada is concerned. It is not a dragon, and is in fact an enemy of serpents and dragons.

I was just giving an example of a figure similar in Christian Religion "at least" 5,000 years older in the East
and that Christian religion can't be compared since it takes parts of Eastern mythology
Atila the Hun was also considered Demon - and Satanic spawn among other things
so I don't think the Dragon should be put in that light unless you- simple love hating DRagons I guess

[Polynesia]

While I agree 100% with the statement that you can not compare Dragon/ Long Mythology to Christian Religion. In fact you can directly blame the church for the misinterpretation of the Chinese Longby compring it to a Westen Dragon.

I am not quite sure where you are going with the bird man... at least as far as the Guada is concerned. It is not a dragon, and is in fact an enemy of serpents and dragons.

It's true Bird Clan and Dragon Clans in Mythology do not get along - funny how they used to be the same though in
Anthropology

[Polynesia]

While I agree 100% with the statement that you can not compare Dragon/ Long Mythology to Christian Religion. In fact you can directly blame the church for the misinterpretation of the Chinese Longby compring it to a Westen Dragon.

I am not quite sure where you are going with the bird man... at least as far as the Guada is concerned. It is not a dragon, and is in fact an enemy of serpents and dragons.

Dragon King of the South Sea (Chinese: 南海龙王; Pinyin: Nánhǎi Lóngwáng) is the Dragon King of the South Sea in Chinese mythology. His name is Ao Shun (敖顺)[1] or 'Ao Qin (敖钦)[2] In Journey to the West, he is mentioned briefly in a battle with the Immortals over the death of their servant to the sea (which was blamed on Ao-Chin's son) and again when Monkey demanded a gift from him and he presented him a red gold cape. He is linked to the Vermilion Bird as both are southern gods in Chinese mythology

The Vermilion Bird is one of the Four Symbols of the Chinese constellations. According to Wu Xing, the Taoist five-elemental system, it represents the fire-element, the direction south, and the season summer correspondingly. Thus it is sometimes called the Vermilion Bird of the South (南方朱雀, Nán Fāng Zhū Què) it is also known as Suzaku in Japan. It is often mistaken for the Fenghuang due to similarities in appearance, but the two are different creatures. The Fenghuang is the king of birds, while the Vermilion Bird is a mythological spirit creature of the Chinese constellations.

This image can also be related to the Crane figure another one of the oldes symbols , and in some cultures the Phoenix
The Dragon and the Bird do come together at some point in this case , possibly as the same guardian

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[Polynesia]

Dragon King of the South Sea (Chinese: 南海龙王; Pinyin: Nánhǎi Lóngwáng) is the Dragon King of the South Sea in Chinese mythology. His name is Ao Shun (敖顺)[1] or 'Ao Qin (敖钦)[2] In Journey to the West, he is mentioned briefly in a battle with the Immortals over the death of their servant to the sea (which was blamed on Ao-Chin's son) and again when Monkey demanded a gift from him and he presented him a red gold cape. He is linked to the Vermilion Bird as both are southern gods in Chinese mythology

The four Dragon Kings (龍王; pinyin: Lóng Wáng) are, in Chinese mythology, the divine rulers of the four seas (each sea corresponds to one of the cardinal directions). Although Dragon Kings appear in their true forms as dragons, they have the ability to shapeshift into human form. The Dragon Kings live in crystal palaces, guarded by shrimp soldiers and crab generals.

Besides ruling over the aquatic life, the Dragon Kings also manipulate clouds and rain. When enraged, they can flood cities. According to The Short Stories on the Tang People (唐人傳奇 Tangren Chuanqi), the Qian Tang Dragon King did just that when he found out his niece had been abused by her husband. Qian Tang also ate the abusive husband.

The Dragon King of the Eastern Sea (Donghai) is said to have the largest territory.

Dragon Kings appeared commonly in literature. Detailed descriptions were given of the finery of their crystal palaces. In the Chinese classical novel Journey to the West, a Dragon King is one of the main characters in the tenth chapter.

Dragon of the East: Ao Guang (敖廣)
Dragon of the South: Ao Qin (敖欽)
Dragon of the West: Ao Run (敖閏)
Dragon of the North: Ao Shun (敖順)

[Polynesia]

The four Dragon Kings (龍王; pinyin: Lóng Wáng) are, in Chinese mythology, the divine rulers of the four seas (each sea corresponds to one of the cardinal directions). Although Dragon Kings appear in their true forms as dragons, they have the ability to shapeshift into human form. The Dragon Kings live in crystal palaces, guarded by shrimp soldiers and crab generals.

Besides ruling over the aquatic life, the Dragon Kings also manipulate clouds and rain. When enraged, they can flood cities. According to The Short Stories on the Tang People (唐人傳奇 Tangren Chuanqi), the Qian Tang Dragon King did just that when he found out his niece had been abused by her husband. Qian Tang also ate the abusive husband.

The Dragon King of the Eastern Sea (Donghai) is said to have the largest territory.

Dragon Kings appeared commonly in literature. Detailed descriptions were given of the finery of their crystal palaces. In the Chinese classical novel Journey to the West, a Dragon King is one of the main characters in the tenth chapter.

Dragon of the East: Ao Guang (敖廣)
Dragon of the South: Ao Qin (敖欽)
Dragon of the West: Ao Run (敖閏)
Dragon of the North: Ao Shun (敖順)

That was a short summary - just mentioned in Wikipedia on the 4 Dragon Kings
There is also another Dragon that comes to mind- but this is not from any study thats been on the connection
but I thought I'd throw this Dragon in also
in the South

The Feathered Serpent Dragon

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[kaiselin]

It's true Bird Clan and Dragon Clans in Mythology do not get along - funny how they used to be the same though in
Anthropology

Probably just a family feud like the Hatfields and McCoy's

Edited by kaiselin, 08 December 2008 - 04:42 PM.

[Polynesia]

Probably just a family feud like the Hatfields and McCoy's

I agree , just that old stubborn Pride LMAO