189 replies to this topic

[Enkidu]

This is a fallacy. Chistianity is a universal religion in the same sense as the Chinese used to think their civilization was universal. In other words, it is seen as the only true one, but applicable to all peoples and countries. It is not about being able to accept all things, but rather being absolutely true and relevant in all contexts and settings.

Buddhism and Christianity are both universal in their claims, but the fundamental difference is that Christianity is centered on monotheism, while Buddhism is not. This gives Buddhism a much bigger room for maneuver in accommodating other beliefs - for example to see them as partial manifestations of the Buddhist truth.

I am not going to make this a religious sermon, well aware that many other forumers may not be Catholics and Christians. The days of the inquisitions all long gone. Yes, Christianity is centred on monotheism, but Christians recognise their monotheistic premise of "our God is the one and only God" is and will cause much friction in their relationship with non-believers. Christians believe that God must have His reason in allowing other religions to exist. We may not believe in what the Hindus, Buddhist etc believe, and we may not agree with their symbols and motives, but they are there, and we accept their existence. Hence, I find it extremely annoying when people start having medieval thoughts of symbolic incompatibility and its resulting spritual disturbance.

[Yun]

Christians believe that God must have His reason in allowing other religions to exist. We may not believe in what the Hindus, Buddhist etc believe, and we may not agree with their symbols and motives, but they are there, and we accept their existence.

Of course God has His reason for allowing other religions to exist, just as He has His reason for allowing Satan to go on existing. But you are making a virtue out of necessity. I have not called for an Inquisition or for an eradication of other religions, but I believe that there is something to be said about being aware of the spiritual power of symbols from any religion.

You may be modern and I may be medieval in your perspective. But there is no great need for you to be annoyed at the difference. I accept the existence of other religions as much as you do. That has nothing to do with whether I want to have dragons in my own home. As long as I don't go out and wreck every dragon symbol I see, I am no danger to anyone's religion, I would think. Note also that I removed the dragons partly out of consideration to my mother and wife, and neither of them is stupid or extremist. They are just different from you. If you can't stomach the contents of this thread, for your own health's sake I would advise you to leave it to others to discuss this issue. God bless you.

[Enkidu]

Let me make it clear on behalf of the staff that anti-Christian hostility will be treated the same as hostility to any other religion on CHF - i.e. an official warning, followed by a suspension for the second offence.

Yun, since administrators can arbitrarily and subjectively give warnings, you can give me a suspension if you want, but if correcting a belief (that the dragon symbol is un-christian) that is in itself fundamentally wrong and unfounded warrants to be labelled anti-Protestant, than this is my last post. Good luck to all of you.

[Yun]

Enkidu, you have a rather subjective view of what is "fundamentally wrong and unfounded". And your use of the word "stupidity" to correct other people's beliefs is itself liable for a warning, whether you are trying to correct me or someone else. Now calm down and learn to disagree with people in a rational and respectful manner. I think a tolerant and modern person like you should be able to do so.

BTW, I don't believe in luck either, since I believe in God

[Yang Zongbao]

Whoa whoa whoa guys, calm down.

Why fight like that over something like this?
I hope you guys lay off one another...it isn't good to force people to fight for their beliefs- they can get real ugly, real fast. You not excluded Yun..
I'm not sure who started what or said what, but what happened looked kinda bad in my eyes.

But I ask that both of you discontinue this discussion.

[snowybeagle]

but if correcting a belief (that the dragon symbol is un-christian) that is in itself fundamentally wrong and unfounded warrants to be labelled anti-Protestant

Would both of you please cool down for a moment.
I respect both Yun and Enkidu and I wonder if there is a miscommunication.

Was Enkidu referring to Yun's post specifically (the one which he used ) or the notion of the namesake of the thread when he brought up terms like stupid?

In any case, I don't think you (Enkidu) had actually corrected a *belief* (that the dragon symbol is unchristian) by your post - you post simply recited your family background and your Catholic background and to you that belief is nonsense.

The originator of this thread was cited certain names (particularly Yuan Zhiming) who thought it was so and IIRC wrote a book to show how this idea came about. What somechineseperson did not do was to show the argument used to substantiate this belief.

Enkidu, by citing your background, you are just simply saying there are Catholics/Christians who do not subscribe to the idea, but that itself does not provide an argument that the *belief* is fundamentally wrong, even though the argument for the *belief* was not provided for in this thread in the first place.

As for Yun's post, despite the tongue-in-cheek smiley, I feel the suggestion of changing the CHF motif to accomodate particular religious beliefs has no place in CHF, regardless of whether it was meant seriously or not seriously.

I am not advocating that any CHF motif would do, but what we have so far should not disturb anyone looking at them in a reasonable context.

If the CHF motifs show blood and gore (e.g., from the descriptions of the 18 levels of hell in Chinese mythology or torture) or gratuitous violence or unwarranted erotica (Chinese history is far from prudish), I'll certainly object!

BTW, I am going to request the admins to either close this thread or have the title changed.

The secondary title line makes an unreasonable premise that there is such as thing as being "Satanic", a concept which is based on beliefs of several religions.

That premise is acceptable in a religious forum but NOT in a forum for CHINESE HISTORY!

[Enkidu]

Enkidu, you have a rather subjective view of what is "fundamentally wrong and unfounded". And your use of the word "stupidity" to correct other people's beliefs is itself liable for a warning, whether you are trying to correct me or someone else. Now calm down and learn to disagree with people in a rational and respectful manner. I think a tolerant and modern person like you should be able to do so.

BTW, I don't believe in luck either, since I believe in God

Reading my posts again, I think I was over-reacting. In my personal quest to rid the world of extremism and fanatism, I sometimes unconsciously behave like an extremist and fanatic myself. So, my apologies to Yun and other members if I hurt their Protestant faith.

Just to clarify, I am never an anti-Protestant. I wouldn't dare, because I married one.

[Kulong]

Christianity is not a "western religion", it is an universal religion like Buddhism. Originally remember Christianity wasn't even European. There is no more a priori affinity between Christianity and European Culture then there is between Christianity and Chinese Culture. The fact that Christian became more "western" while Buddhism became more "Chinese" is purely a contingent factor. One can imagine that in a parallel universe where Christianity spread to and took hold in China and Buddhism spread to and took hold in Europe. In this parallel world Christianity will be labelled as a "Chinese religion" and Buddhism a "western religion".

I am very well aware of the origin of Christianity and its develoments. I was a Christian myself for quite some time...

Fact is, today Christianity is a very Western religion with Western values and ideals. You can't judge the whole world based on Christian values and beliefs no more you can do the same with Chinese values and beliefs.

I believe in God/Shangdi. And God/Shangdi, being the God of China, has everything to do with Chinese Culture.

You believe in the Christian God. Just because YOU believe the Christian God is the one and only true god it doesn't make it so. What makes YOUR religion more legit or better than another's? This is one of the major reasons why I stopped going to church.

Still, as I said, I don't believe the Chinese Dragon is necessarily evil. But IMO it is also incorrect to think of the Dragon as always good, for even the ancient Chinese thought of some dragons as evil.

Who said that the Dragon is always good. Like I mentioned in another thread, Chinese doesn't have a concept of absolute good and absolute evil like the West does, which I personally find a little close-minded as majority of the world is somewhere in the gray area. Like you pointed out yourself, the dragon is sometimes good, sometimes bad, very realistic.

Even in Europe, the Dragon is not always perceived as evil. The Celts, for example, are a very Christian people but their national symbol (as seen on the national flag of Wales) is a Red Dragon.

We're not talking about European culture, we're talking about Christianity. I thought you were the one who said that Christianity isn't a "Westner religion"? lol

Also, I believe MengTzu is right, strictly speaking the Chinese Long, the European Dragon and the Biblical Dragon/Snake are three different types of creatures.

No one is disagreeing with you here... at least I'm not.

But from my perspective, this sort of question is important, because my religious background is a mixture of Christian/Catholic and Chinese/Confucian influences, so without being able to firmly settle this question, I can't even study Yijing, one of the Confucian Classics, in a peaceful frame of mind.

Religions cloud the mind...

[Lin Duanwen]

Reading my posts again, I think I was over-reacting. In my personal quest to rid the world of extremism and fanatism, I sometimes unconsciously behave like an extremist and fanatic myself. So, my apologies to Yun and other members if I hurt their Protestant faith.

Just to clarify, I am never an anti-Protestant. I wouldn't dare, because I married one.

Since Enkidu had apologized, I hope that 10% warning given to him will be removed. There are two areas that I'm afraid to involve in, one is religion matters and the other one is TI issue. Instead of joining in to debate, I think it is better for me to stay out. (sometimes still wrote 2 or 3 posts b/c of itch hand) Hope that members of CHF don't over-react while discussing sensitive issues.

[DaMo]

I was checking out online reviews of Disney's Mulan, and on one site called christiananswers.net, a Christian reviewer went on about how dragons are evil and a representation of Satan and such. This fundamentalist anti-pluralist ant-integration culturally-arrogant manifestation of Christianity (and other religions) should be guarded against, or more cultural symbols and rituals will be insulted.

[snowybeagle]

I was checking out online reviews of Disney's Mulan, and on one site called christiananswers.net, a Christian reviewer went on about how dragons are evil and a representation of Satan and such. This fundamentalist anti-pluralist ant-integration culturally-arrogant manifestation of Christianity (and other religions) should be guarded against, or more cultural symbols and rituals will be insulted.

I have searched for the website and I think you are referring to http://christianansw...00/i-mulan.html

Not all the reviews and comments are so narrow-minded, but I'll let those interested to read and decide for themselves.

On the one hand, if a religion teaches about only one true way, diluting it for the sake of pluralism or integration would be compromise and heresy.

On the other hand, just make sure it's not forced upon anyone.

Just like most people are aware that Muslims and Jews do not eat pork, asking them to eat along for the sake of pluralism and integration is wrong.

On the other hand, Muslims should also not expect others to refrain from pork just to respect the beliefs of the Muslims.

This is the essence of religious harmony.

[Craig]

I have searched for the website and I think you are referring to http://christianansw...00/i-mulan.html

Not all the reviews and comments are so narrow-minded, but I'll let those interested to read and decide for themselves.

On the one hand, if a religion teaches about only one true way, diluting it for the sake of pluralism or integration would be compromise and heresy.

On the other hand, just make sure it's not forced upon anyone.

Just like most people are aware that Muslims and Jews do not eat pork, asking them to eat along for the sake of pluralism and integration is wrong.

On the other hand, Muslims should also not expect others to refrain from pork just to respect the beliefs of the Muslims.

This is the essence of religious harmony.

Hi All,
It hasn't been mentioned that scientists have found fossils of flying reptiles in the Gobi with feathered quills sitting on eggs. It was brooding its young. Of late, zoologists have concluded that birds evolved from reptiles. What else would one call a flying reptile but a dragon. So these myths and symbols, when shorn of their
psychological and spiritual baggage, are found to have a basis in reality. It is true that the dragon may have darker connotations in the west. But that is a cultural experience. A western man may wonder what the oriental fascination with reptiles and snakes is all about. After all, ophidiphobia is common to all mammals.
The veneration of the dragon is understandable when one knows how intensely agrarian the East is. To a farmer, it is the rats and vermin that are loathed. It is the rat that snatches grain from the mouths of infants since civilization began.
It is the snake, the reptile, the dragon that hunted and devoured that which deprived people of sustenance.

[ChineseGandhi]

Is the Chinese Dragon a Satanic symbol?
I'm not talking about myths, I'm saying spiritually, is the Dragon really Satanic or not?

why do you say chinese dragon is satanic to christians? Here in moscow we had chinese dragon dance last spring. But nobody said it was satanic.

[Klamath]

Too sensitive, no good for me to say too much.

Ok, religion is religion, religion shall not invade the area of others(culture, politics, history, social criterias) especially the total different chinese society which had religion shaped for use, not like that in the west, religion shaped everything.

[DaMo]

On the one hand, if a religion teaches about only one true way, diluting it for the sake of pluralism or integration would be compromise and heresy.

On the other hand, just make sure it's not forced upon anyone.

Just like most people are aware that Muslims and Jews do not eat pork, asking them to eat along for the sake of pluralism and integration is wrong.

On the other hand, Muslims should also not expect others to refrain from pork just to respect the beliefs of the Muslims.

This is the essence of religious harmony.

Sure, but another problem with fundamentalism is that it views itself as a pure atomic package, and often tries to blindly erase existing cultural practices. This nihilistic attitude is what bothers me. Religions should tolerate internal pluralism as well, and especially respect the legacy of the eons past (Eg. Bamiyan Buddhas, Chinese dragon symbol, ancestor veneration), instead of looking down upon it as a stain of pagan/infidel times that needs to be wiped out. It is mainly due to the pulpit warriors having too much power in certain religions that makes them prone to fundamentalism, and these religions need to be "loosened up".