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What is the chinese religion?


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#16 Borjigin Ayurbarwada

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 11:27 AM

You are right, the original chinese religion is only Daoism.



This is one of the most mis-understood concepts. Daoist simply means someone cultivating the way, originally, it means anyone practicing religion, including Buddhists. So Yes Buddhism IS Daoism, and so is Christianity. Buddha was originally called PuTi Dao Ren, the Daoist of the Boddhi.
The difference between religion and a belief is that a religion has scripts and a teaching, usually categorized by a founder. Belief are mere beliefs. Thats why Jiao is separated from Xin. No one in ancient China ask another what religion you believe in, since its assumed that just about everything is true. The better question is what religion you PRACTICE.

Religious Dao is created by Zhang Dao Ling, but there are MANY other Daoists(mystic practioners) before him or even before Lao Zi which doesn't follow Lao Zi or the Dao De Jing(some simply because they existed before Lao Zi such as Sheng Dao), therefore they are different religions, but they are also known as Daoists because they practice religion. But they are different branch of Daoism, and Buddhism was also another branch of Daoism when it just entered China.
The meaning of Daoism has became more and more defined to counterweight the influence of Buddhism. But there are still religion(Jiao pai) throughout Chinese history that doesn't belong to the San Jiao(3 religion) of Confucian, Daoism, and Buddhism. They have their own founders, their own teacher. The truth is, China probably have more religion than all of Europe and middle east combined.
The book Feng Shen Yang Yi actually portrays it quite well, Tong Tien Jiao Zhu belong to a whole separate religion.

And modern FaLun Gong is also a totally different religion. Li Hong Zhi claims that he practiced both Daoism and Buddhism because these are the two greatest ways in the universe.Yet he also mentions a third religion(which he claim to be so rare nowadays that most people haven't herd about it), but he was fortunate to meet one of these practitioners and learn that religious practice. He claim thato if all 3 is practiced, the practitioner would achieve Dao beyond that of Tathagata. lol

In China, religion is simply religion, the whole purpose of religion is to cultivate one's Dao or De. There is no emphasize on faith. One Chan Buddhist of 8th century said to his student to meditate and enlighten by themselves without outside help: "if you see the buddha, kill the buddha"
I would call chan buddhist a native Chinese religion, since it doesn't emphasize on the teacher Buddha, but different chan master themselves. If Christianity is considered a separate religion from Judaeism there is absolutely no reason why Chan Buddhism should be the same as original Buddhism.

#17 Wujiang

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 11:39 AM

I agree with warhead. Daoism in its original state was not a religion by any means of the word. It just an explaination of how the mind works. Which was why I said that the native chinese religion was religious daoism.
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#18 Borjigin Ayurbarwada

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 11:55 AM

well, lets not leave out the "hidden" religious cults. They might very well have their own scripture, and all those that became extinct in the past. China certainly had more than just one religion, even many Buddhist sutras were created by later high Buddhist masters not originally in the Pali cannon. They also reached transcendal experience and wrote their own texts. This is the same for Daoist masters such as Zhang Bo ., who practiced both Daoism and Buddhism.

He wrote the "Enlightened way" which still exist today. It was said that during the Tang dynasty Zhang practiced the way of immortal and achieved the ability of Wu Zhong Shen You, transformation, levitation and astral projection.

There was another Chan Buddhist master who was known to have meditated to the degree that he is able to project his "Shen"(spirit) out of his body and travel thousands of li instaneously.
So Zhang had a meeting with that Chan Master. They both sat down, meditated and both of their Shen flew out of their body. The Chan Master's shen reached 1000 li away first, while Zhang's spirit drifted there, then Zhang said to the Chan master, there is lotus flower down there, we each pick one up and bring it back.
So they both reentered their body and sneezed. Their shen and their form reattached, Zhang asked the Chan master where his flower was, the Chan master put out his hand but their was nothing, Zhang then took out his hand with the flower in it. Zhang laughed and said to the Chan master, "I have never enjoyed the astral trip as much as today, its the first time that I traveled together with another master, the two of us are so highly cultivated that its rare to see such abilities."


Later his students asked Zhang why he was able to bring back the flower while the Chan master couldn't

Zhang replied, the Daoists stress Ming(body cultivation) while the Buddhists stress Xin(sudden enlightenment)
I practice both while the Chan master only practice the latter. Because he only practice Xin, he could not bring back the flower since his astral projection is not physical, his spirit is thus a Ying spirit. I cultivate the Daoist Ming and thus was able to create reality out of illusion(the famous Wu Zhong Shen You) thus I was able to bring back the flower. So my spirit is a Yang spirit.

He wrote down the practice in his book and it is recorded that when he was burned there were hundreds of "She Li Zi" from his bones.

#19 Borjigin Ayurbarwada

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 11:55 AM

well, lets not leave out the "hidden" religious cults. They might very well have their own scripture, and all those that became extinct in the past. China certainly had more than just one religion, even many Buddhist sutras were created by later high Buddhist masters not originally in the Pali cannon. They also reached transcendal experience and wrote their own texts. This is the same for Daoist masters such as Zhang Bo ., who practiced both Daoism and Buddhism.

He wrote the "Enlightened way" which still exist today. It was said that during the Tang dynasty Zhang practiced the way of immortal and achieved the ability of Wu Zhong Shen You, transformation, levitation and astral projection.

There was another Chan Buddhist master who was known to have meditated to the degree that he is able to project his "Shen"(spirit) out of his body and travel thousands of li instaneously.
So Zhang had a meeting with that Chan Master. They both sat down, meditated and both of their Shen flew out of their body. The Chan Master's shen reached 1000 li away first, while Zhang's spirit drifted there, then Zhang said to the Chan master, there is lotus flower down there, we each pick one up and bring it back.
So they both reentered their body and sneezed. Their shen and their form reattached, Zhang asked the Chan master where his flower was, the Chan master put out his hand but their was nothing, Zhang then took out his hand with the flower in it. Zhang laughed and said to the Chan master, "I have never enjoyed the astral trip as much as today, its the first time that I traveled together with another master, the two of us are so highly cultivated that its rare to see such abilities."


Later his students asked Zhang why he was able to bring back the flower while the Chan master couldn't

Zhang replied, the Daoists stress Ming(body cultivation) while the Buddhists stress Xin(sudden enlightenment)
I practice both while the Chan master only practice the latter. Because he only practice Xin, he could not bring back the flower since his astral projection is not physical, his spirit is thus a Ying spirit. I cultivate the Daoist Ming and thus was able to create reality out of illusion(the famous Wu Zhong Shen You) thus I was able to bring back the flower. So my spirit is a Yang spirit.

He wrote down the practice in his book and it is recorded that when he was burned there were hundreds of "She Li Zi" from his bones.

#20 somechineseperson

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 01:22 PM

Highly exaggerated. In the year 1992, offical stastics is about 12 millions.


1.That was 1992, this is 2005. During this time even the official numbers have increased.
2.A lot of Christians in China are "underground" Christians, who don't get included in the official census.

#21 Borjigin Ayurbarwada

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 02:29 PM

"1.That was 1992, this is 2005. During this time even the official numbers have increased.
2.A lot of Christians in China are "underground" Christians, who don't get included in the official census."

Last time I checked which is this year, the percentage of Christians is still only 1, less than Islam.

#22 somechineseperson

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 04:25 PM

"1.That was 1992, this is 2005. During this time even the official numbers have increased.
2.A lot of Christians in China are "underground" Christians, who don't get included in the official census."

Last time I checked which is this year, the percentage of Christians is still only 1, less than Islam.


Islam doesn't have the same degree of influence on modern Chinese culture. Virtually no Han Chinese is a Muslim, whereas Christian influence in China began 400 years ago during the Ming-Qing transition period. (Christianity actually arrived in China much earlier in 635 AD, which is earlier than the entry of Islam into China, but the medieval Chinese Christian tradition did not survive) The only major Islamic influence in China is certain types of Muslim food, popular especially in the northwestern regions. I came from the city of Xi'an and the city is famous for its different types of Muslim food.

Your sources are not accurate due to the large amount of "underground" Christians who are not registered on official censors.

#23 Borjigin Ayurbarwada

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 05:59 PM

um 635 is not earlier than the introduction of Islam. Which occured around the same time.

If you want to count underground Christians, then I bet there are even more underground Buddhists and Muslims. The entire ethnic Hui is probably full of "underground" religious sects.


"Virtually no Han Chinese is a Muslim"

There is a whole group of Han thats Muslim, because they are so abundant they became another ethnic group, called the Hui.
The thing are several Muslim ethnic groups of China, and they are alot more influential than Christianity.

#24 MengTzu

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 01:01 AM

This is one of the most mis-understood concepts. Daoist simply means someone cultivating the way, originally, it means anyone practicing religion, including Buddhists. So Yes Buddhism IS Daoism, and so is Christianity.


Previously you opposed somechineseperson for claiming that Dao is the same as the Christian God. Such a view might indeed be seeing the East through the Western lense. But you're doing the same thing in opposite -- you're interpreting other religions through a Chinese construct. This is a glaring double standard.

Let's have a simple arithmatic game.

Officially registered Buddhists are about 100 million, Daoists 25000, Muslin 25 millions, Christians 12 million.

As you said ,there are lots of undergound christians, right? And the total amount is about the ten times of that official stastics. According to you logic, there also might a lot of underground Buddhists, Daoists, Muslims.

The underground
Buddhists : 1 billion,
Daoists: 0.25 million
Muslin: 250 millions,
Christians: 0.1 billion.
aethists: 0.8 billion.

Well, about the aethists, I just focused on the CCP members, there are 80 millions, so underground aethists would be 800 millions.

So, the total population in China would be about 2.2 billions.

There must be addtional 2.2-1.3=0.9 billion chinese underground. It's great! :lol: :lol:



An important note: I suspect that a lot of the 100 million Chinese Buddhists practice a form of religiosity that mixes various aspects of Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism, and folk religion, but chose Buddhism as a convenient label.

Another thing to mention is this: some might wonder why Confucianism doesn't even have a number, and Taoism has such a small number. My belief is that the former was considered a formal, organized religion, and the latter probably tends to consider only the initiated (novices, priests) as real members. As I mentioned, most people, I suspect, practice a mix of Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism (these three comprise of the three pillars of Chinese religious thought), and folk religion, but convenient call it Buddhism.

#25 LYY

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 01:46 AM

...
An important note: I suspect that a lot of the 100 million Chinese Buddhists practice a form of religiosity that mixes various aspects of Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism, and folk religion, but chose Buddhism as a convenient label.

Another thing to mention is this: some might wonder why Confucianism doesn't even have a number, and Taoism has such a small number. My belief is that the former was considered a formal, organized religion, and the latter probably tends to consider only the initiated (novices, priests) as real members. As I mentioned, most people, I suspect, practice a mix of Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism (these three comprise of the three pillars of Chinese religious thought), and folk religion, but convenient call it Buddhism.


To a large extent, what is pointed out is close to reality in my opinion.

One point to add from the dichotomical (yin/yang) aspect, we can further categorize the mix practice into few groups:

Taoism (yin) / Confucianism (yang)
Taoism (yin) / Confucianism-Buddhism [入世佛教] (yang)
Buddhism [出世佛教]-Taoism (yin) / Confusionism(yang)
Buddhism [出世佛教] (yin) / Buddhism [入世佛教] (yang)
Buddhism [出世佛教] (yin) / Taoism (yang)
etc ...

Edited by LYY, 20 October 2005 - 01:46 AM.


#26 somechineseperson

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 07:11 AM

Previously you opposed somechineseperson for claiming that Dao is the same as the Christian God. Such a view might indeed be seeing the East through the Western lense. But you're doing the same thing in opposite -- you're interpreting other religions through a Chinese construct. This is a glaring double standard.
An important note: I suspect that a lot of the 100 million Chinese Buddhists practice a form of religiosity that mixes various aspects of Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism, and folk religion, but chose Buddhism as a convenient label.

Another thing to mention is this: some might wonder why Confucianism doesn't even have a number, and Taoism has such a small number. My belief is that the former was considered a formal, organized religion, and the latter probably tends to consider only the initiated (novices, priests) as real members. As I mentioned, most people, I suspect, practice a mix of Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism (these three comprise of the three pillars of Chinese religious thought), and folk religion, but convenient call it Buddhism.


The idea is not to see Chinese culture through Western lenses or vice versa, but to discover a common trans-cultural reality that underpins all cultures. And that is the Logos or Dao.

#27 MengTzu

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 01:33 PM

The idea is not to see Chinese culture through Western lenses or vice versa, but to discover a common trans-cultural reality that underpins all cultures. And that is the Logos or Dao.


I understand your reasoning. It is not an unusual one, but one embraced by many ecumenically minded individuals of various religions. The context of my post was to show that warhead was using a double standard: he accused you of using the Western lens, but he did the exact same thing with the Eastern lens.

#28 somechineseperson

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 04:44 PM

I understand your reasoning. It is not an unusual one, but one embraced by many ecumenically minded individuals of various religions. The context of my post was to show that warhead was using a double standard: he accused you of using the Western lens, but he did the exact same thing with the Eastern lens.


The great 17th century German scientist and philosopher Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, remembered most famously for his invention of caculus jointly with Issac Newton and his work in mechanical philosophy, was a sinophilliac who proposed an ecumenical alliance between Christianity and Confucianism that will benefit the world. This is his comment on China in his book Novissima Sinica: (personally I think he exaggerates)

I consider it a singular plan of the fates that human cultivation
and refinement should today be concentrated, as it were, in the two
extremes of our continent, in Europe and in Tshina (as they call it),
which adorns the Orient as Europe does the opposite edge of the earth.
Perhaps Supreme Providence has ordained such an arrangement, so that as
the most cultivated and distant peoples stretch out their arms to each
other, those in between may gradually be brought to a better way of
life. I do not think it an accident that the Muscovites whose vast
realm connects Europe with China and who hold sway over the deep
barbarian lands of the North by the shore of the frozen ocean, should
be led to the emulation of our ways through the strenuous efforts of
their present ruler and their Patriarch, as I understand it, in
agreement with him.

Now the Chinese Empire, which challenges Europe in cultivated area
and certainly surpasses her in population, vies with us in many other
ways in almost equal combat, so that now they win, now we. But what
should I put down first by way of comparison? To go over everything,
even though useful, would be lengthy and is not our proper task in this
place. In the useful arts and in practical experience with natural
objects we are, all things considered, about equal to them, and each
people has knowledge which it could with profit communicate to the
other. In profundity of knowledge and in the theoretical disciplines we
are their superiors. For besides logic and metaphysics, and the
knowledge of things incorporeal, which we justly claim as peculiarly
our province, we excel by far in the understanding of concepts which
are abstracted by the mind from the material, ie., in things
mathematical, as is in truth demonstrated when Chinese astronomy comes
into competition with our own. The Chinese are thus seen to be ignorant
of that great light of the mind, the art of demonstration, and they
have remained content with a sort of empirical geometry, which our
artisans universally possess. They also yield to us in military
science, not so much out of ignorance as by deliberation. For they
despise everything which creates or nourishes ferocity in men, and
almost in emulation of the higher teachings of Christ (and not, as some
wrongly suggest, because of anxiety), they are averse to war. They
would be wise indeed if they were alone in the world. But as things
are, it comes back to this, that even the good must cultivate the arts
of war, so that the evil may not gain power over everything. In these
matters, then, we are superior.

But who would have believed that there is on earth a people who,
though we are in our view so very advanced in every branch of behavior,
still surpass us in comprehending the precepts of civil life? Yet now
we find this to be so among the Chinese, as we learn to know them
better. And so if we are their equals in the industrial arts, and ahead
of them in contemplative sciences, certainly they surpass us (though it
is almost shameful to confess this) in practical philosophy, that is,
in the precepts of ethics and politics adapted to the present life and
use of mortals. Indeed, it is difficult to describe how beautifully all
the laws of the Chinese, in contrast to those of other peoples, are
directed to the achievement of public tranquility and the establishment
of social order, so that men shall be disrupted in their relations as
little as possible. Certainly by their own doing men suffer the
greatest evils and in turn inflict them upon each other. It is truly
said that "man is a wolf to man." Our folly is indeed great, but quite
universal. We exposed as we are to natural injuries, heap woes on
ourselves, as though they were lacking from elsewhere.

What harm, then, if some nation has found a remedy [for these
evils]? Certainly the Chinese above all others have attained a higher
standard. In a vast multitude of men they have accomplished more than
the founders of religious orders among us have achieved within their
own ranks. So great is obedience toward superiors and reverence toward
elders, so religious, almost, is the relation of children toward
parents, that for children to contrive anything violent against their
parents, even by word, is almost unheard of, and the perpetrator seems
to atone for his actions even as we make a parricide pay for his deed.
Moreover, there is among equals, or those having little obligation to
one another, a marvelous respect, and an established order of duties.
To us, not enough accustomed to act by reason and rule, these smack of
servitude; yet among them, where these duties are made natural by use,
they are observed gladly. As our people have noticed in amazement, the
Chinese peasants and servants, when they bid farewell to friends, or
when they first enjoy the sight of each other after a long separation,
behave to each other so lovingly and respectfully that they challenge
all the politeness of European magnates. What then would you expect
from the mandarins, or from Colai? Thus it happens that scarcely anyone
offends another by the smallest word in common conversation. And they
rarely show evidences of hatred, wrath, or excitement. With us respect
and careful conversation last for hardly more than the first days of a
new acquaintance--scarcely even that. Soon familiarity moves in and
circumspection is gladly put away for a sort of freedom which is
quickly followed by contempt, backbiting, anger, and afterwards enmity.
It is just the contrary with the Chinese. Neighbors and even members of
a family are so held back by a hedge of custom that they are able to
maintain a kind of perpetual courtesy.

#29 MengTzu

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 05:12 PM

The great 17th century German scientist and philosopher Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, remembered most famously for his invention of caculus jointly with Issac Newton and his work in mechanical philosophy, was a sinophilliac who proposed an ecumenical alliance between Christianity and Confucianism that will benefit the world. This is his comment on China in his book Novissima Sinica: (personally I think he exaggerates)


What's your point?

#30 somechineseperson

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 05:47 PM

What's your point?


Hey, I'm not trying to argue anything in this thread, just to relax and discuss some issues. Don't think I am always arguing with you. ;)




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