70 replies to this topic

[Minty]

I have a question. It is said by many Chinese that Japanese or Korean have evolved from Han, Chinese, why many Chinese claimed this? I have read that Japanese genetically is not close to Chinese some Japanese looks Caucasoid or Polynesian and if more than 40% of that race is not looking Chinese, then does the claim of identity in east Asia still hold?

[Mei Houwang]

I have a question. It is said by many Chinese that Japanese or Korean have evolved from Han, Chinese, why many Chinese claimed this? I have read that Japanese genetically is not close to Chinese some Japanese looks Caucasoid or Polynesian and if more than 40% of that race is not looking Chinese, then does the claim of identity in east Asia still hold?

No one claim Japanese/Koreans "evolved" since everyone has already came down with the fact that all three groups of people belong to the same species. The closest thing said is that "Japanese and Korean culture evolved from Chinese culture". Japanese people did come from mainland China though WAY before recorded history.

[soltung]

australoids are basically those peoples who settled in coastal Asia and Oceania after leaving Africa...
mongoloids are descended from peoples who moved inland from south/south-east Asia...probably related to australoids...

western groups are descended from another branch that probably left Africa after Australoids...

Austroloids look more "african". And I think you are overstretching the relation between austroloids and the ainu. At what point do they stop being austroloid and become their own race?

Maybe the ancient austroloids are the ancestors of Western groups as well. But who are the ancestors of Mongoloids?

[Minty]

Only the NATIVE Japanese Ainu people look Caucasoid,the rest of Japanese look more Mongoloid.

Why you say Ainus look caucasoids? I think they are closer to aboriginals. So I heard in the Japanese population only 50 percent of the Japanese look similar to chinese and Korean. The other 40 percent is of Ainu/Jomon descendant and 10 percent is polynesian. So if more than 40% of that race is not looking chinese, then does the claim of identity in east asia still hold?

The answer is deep-seated SINOCENTRIC MENTALITY as ancient China was the " supreme cultural center " for the region for over 2000 years,there is a renmant of SINOCENTRICISM among some modern day Chinese.

Ancient HUAXIA people of upper Yellow River Basin and DONG-YI clans of China's Shandong Peninsula were the TWO ORIGINS of Han Chinese later included northern/northeastern nomadic tribes plus a few other Mongoloid ethnicities over a span of time evolved to what's modern day Han Chinese,which is more a cultural identity than a monolithic ethnicity since it's a genetically " Heinz 57 ".

It's historic fact though,Koreans and Japanese migrated from Asia continent,but these two nationalities are mostly of northern nomadic stock plus a percentage of the population is of Han Chinese ancestry.At least 50% Japanese population share classic Tungusic-Manchu looks with Koreans of Paekche/PUYO origin.My Japanese friend knowledged there is admixture of Polynesian blood among her people.A small percentage of Koreans and Japanese DO LOOK KINDDA northern and coastal region Han Chinese,some Koreans can trace their family Chinese heritage to China' Shandong Peninsula.Only the NATIVE Japanese Ainu people look Caucasoid,the rest of Japanese look more Mongoloid.

It's true Japanese are more genetically closer to Koreans than the diluted modern-day Han Chinese,most of Japanese " gene pool " derived from Korea's ancient southern kingdoms due to geographic proximity.

Koreans and Japanese are NE Asians based on their Mongoloid origins of northeastern nomadic on the Asia continent.

Do you have links to where you got these information from?

Edited by Minty, 31 March 2006 - 07:56 AM.

[soltung]

Ainu/Jomon are mixed between paleo-Siberian and Austronesian...many traces of their genes are found in northeast Asian populations inc. Japanese and Korean, but much less in Han and southern Chinese...in prehistory they would also have inhabited many areas of coastal China (e.g. Shandong)...modern Japanese and Koreans are descended from mixtures between Ainu/Jomon and Mongoloid types (inc. Han Chinese)...

Why you say Ainus look caucasoids? I think they are closer to aboriginals. So I heard in the Japanese population only 50 percent of the Japanese look similar to chinese and Korean. The other 40 percent is of Ainu/Jomon descendant and 10 percent is polynesian. So if more than 40% of that race is not looking chinese, then does the claim of identity in east asia still hold?
Do you have links to where you got these information from?

[Minty]

^Thanks

According to a study of gene (blood), there are two Mongorians.
Nothern Mongorians are Japanese or Native Americans.
(Japanese or Native Americans are "Old" Mongorians.Inuit are "New" Mongorians.)
Southern Mongorians are Chinese,Filipinos,Malayans.
Tamil in India are mixed.
The origin of gene (blood) of Japanese was from near the Lake Bikal, one of a gene hunter,Matsumoto Hideo said.
DNA of Jomon people were mainly (90%) the same as DNA of people who lived near the Lake Bikal.

There is this claimed that:
Old Mongorians have wet ear wax,and New Mongorians have dry one.

Well but I am Han, Chinese and I do not have dry but wet ear waxes. I wonder does this mean this theory is false or are there some other explanations to this. In my family tree my lineage and descent do not traced back to any mixing with Japanese or North American Indians.

[DearCoolZ]

Ainu/Jomon are mixed between paleo-Siberian and Austronesian...many traces of their genes are found in northeast Asian populations inc. Japanese and Korean, but much less in Han and southern Chinese...in prehistory they would also have inhabited many areas of coastal China (e.g. Shandong)...modern Japanese and Koreans are descended from mixtures between Ainu/Jomon and Mongoloid types (inc. Han Chinese)...

source?

ainus were active in around hokkaido and sakhlin area,they never set a foot in the korean pennisula.
Koreans are desceded from the siberians,as you can see they resemblances to eachother.

japanese have ainu bloods in them as you can see from theiy hairness body and face while koreans have very little facial and body hairs.

^Thanks

According to a study of gene (blood), there are two Mongorians.
Nothern Mongorians are Japanese or Native Americans.
(Japanese or Native Americans are "Old" Mongorians.Inuit are "New" Mongorians.)
Southern Mongorians are Chinese,Filipinos,Malayans.
Tamil in India are mixed.
The origin of gene (blood) of Japanese was from near the Lake Bikal, one of a gene hunter,Matsumoto Hideo said.
DNA of Jomon people were mainly (90%) the same as DNA of people who lived near the Lake Bikal.

There is this claimed that:
Old Mongorians have wet ear wax,and New Mongorians have dry one.

Well but I am Han, Chinese and I do not have dry but wet ear waxes. I wonder does this mean this theory is false or are there some other explanations to this. In my family tree my lineage and descent do not traced back to any mixing with Japanese or North American Indians.

you are very wrong. there are paleo-mongoloids(siberians),north mongoloids(han chinese,japanese and korean) and south mongoloids(Thais,Vietnamese,laotian etc).
clearly the japanese doesn't look anything alike the native americans.

malays and filipinos are malayo-polynesians not so mongoloid,infact more of austroloids with a bit mixture of southern mongoloid.


I'd like to read your academic sources for your claim.

[Minty]

source?

ainus were active in around hokkaido and sakhlin area,they never set a foot in the korean pennisula.
Koreans are desceded from the siberians,as you can see they resemblances to eachother.

japanese have ainu bloods in them as you can see from theiy hairness body and face while koreans have very little facial and body hairs.
you are very wrong. there are paleo-mongoloids(siberians),north mongoloids(han chinese,japanese and korean) and south mongoloids(Thais,Vietnamese,laotian etc).
clearly the japanese doesn't look anything alike the native americans.

malays and filipinos are malayo-polynesians not so mongoloid,infact more of austroloids with a bit mixture of southern mongoloid.
I'd like to read your academic sources for your claim.

http://www-bsac.eecs...of_Japanese.pdf
http://www.genome.or...ull/14/10a/1832

http://www.medscape....stract/11543902


For some reason the last link didn't work work when I click on it, so I decided to paste it:

Genetic link between Asians and native Americans: evidence from HLA genes and haplotypes.
Medscape Newsletters

Sign Up To Receive
Medscape Best Evidence
Key journal articles ranked for newsworthiness and clinical relevance in each specialty, linked to Medline abstracts.
Hum Immunol. 2001; 62(9):1001-8 (ISSN: 0198-8859)
Tokunaga K; Ohashi J; Bannai M; Juji T
Department of Human Genetics, Graduate School of Medicine, University of Tokyo, Tokyo, Japan. tokunaga@m.u-tokyo.ac.jp

We have been studying polymorphisms of HLA class I and II genes in East Asians including Buryat in Siberia, Mongolian, Han Chinese, Man Chinese, Korean Chinese, South Korean, and Taiwan indigenous populations in collaboration with many Asian scientists. Regional populations in Japan, Hondo-Japanese, Ryukyuan, and Ainu, were also studied. HLA-A, -B, and -DRB1 gene frequencies were subjected to the correspondence analysis and calculation of DA distances. The correspondence analysis demonstrated several major clusters of human populations in the world. "Mongoloid" populations were highly diversified, in which several clusters such as Northeast Asians, Southeast Asians, Oceanians, and Native Americans were observed. Interestingly, an indigenous population in North Japan, Ainu, was placed relatively close to Native Americans in the correspondence analysis. Distribution of particular HLA-A, -B, -DRB1 alleles and haplotypes was also analyzed in relation to migration and dispersal routes of ancestral populations. A number of alleles and haplotypes showed characteristic patterns of regional distribution. For example, B39-HR5-DQ7 (B*3901-DRB1*1406-DQB1*0301) was shared by Ainu and Native Americans. A24-Cw8-B48 was commonly observed in Taiwan indigenous populations, Maori in New Zealand, Orochon in Northeast China, Inuit, and Tlingit. These findings further support the genetic link between East Asians and Native Americans. We have proposed that various ancestral populations in East Asia, marked by different HLA haplotypes, had migrated and dispersed through multiple routes. Moreover, relatively small genetic distances and the sharing of several HLA haplotypes between Ainu and Native Americans suggest that these populations are descendants of some Upper Paleolithic populations of East Asia.

Subject Headings
Major Subject Heading(s) Minor Subject Heading(s) CAS Registry / EC Numbers
Alleles
Asia, Southeastern
Asian Continental Ancestry Group [genetics]
European Continental Ancestry Group [genetics]
Far East
HLA Antigens [genetics]
HLA-D Antigens [genetics]
Haplotypes [genetics]
Histocompatibility Antigens Class I [genetics]
Humans
Indians, North American [genetics]
Japan
Models, Genetic
Multivariate Analysis
Polymorphism, Genetic
Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't
0 (HLA Antigens)
0 (HLA-D Antigens)
0 (Histocompatibility Antigens Class I)


PreMedline Identifier: 11543902

Edited by Minty, 01 April 2006 - 05:16 PM.

[DearCoolZ]

your source didn't say anything about the two "mongorians" of yours,nor did it say northern mongorians are japanese or native american and neither did it say the southern mongorians being chinese,filipino and malayans.

you should see the native malays and filipines yourself and tell me if they look like chinese or not.


granted,i will provide pics for you

native malayans,do they look anything like chinese?i don't even know how did you come up with the idea that chinese and malayans are both southern mongoloid

QUOTE(Minty @ Mar 31 2006, 04:18 PM)

^Thanks

According to a study of gene (blood), there are two Mongorians.
Nothern Mongorians are Japanese or Native Americans.
(Japanese or Native Americans are "Old" Mongorians.Inuit are "New" Mongorians.)
Southern Mongorians are Chinese,Filipinos,Malayans.
Tamil in India are mixed.
The origin of gene (blood) of Japanese was from near the Lake Bikal, one of a gene hunter,Matsumoto Hideo said.
DNA of Jomon people were mainly (90%) the same as DNA of people who lived near the Lake Bikal.

There is this claimed that:
Old Mongorians have wet ear wax,and New Mongorians have dry one.

Well but I am Han, Chinese and I do not have dry but wet ear waxes. I wonder does this mean this theory is false or are there some other explanations to this. In my family tree my lineage and descent do not traced back to any mixing with Japanese or North American Indians.

[Karakhan]

Since the thread now encompasses ethnicities beyond the state of China (Ainu, Malays, Japanese, etc), I'm going to move it out of the Chinese ethnicity section.

[Minty]

ainus were active in around hokkaido and sakhlin area,they never set a foot in the korean pennisula.
Koreans are desceded from the siberians,as you can see they resemblances to eachother.

japanese have ainu bloods in them as you can see from theiy hairness body and face while koreans have very little facial and body hairs.

http://www.hdgumdo.com/

The Samurang, under the command of general Uel Ji Moon Duk, fended off 2 million soldiers during the invasion of the Sui Dynasty. They also defeated 600,000 Tang soldiers at the Ahn Shi battle under the command of general Yang Man Choon. Some of the Samurang moved to Japan and they were known as Samurai as the pronunciation has been altered to accommodate the Japanese alphabet" ......

clearly the japanese doesn't look anything alike the native americans.

http://www-personal....wn3/brown99.pdf

Interestingly, an indigenous population in North Japan, Ainu, was placed relatively close to Native Americans in the correspondence analysis. taken from:http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/11543902

The origin of gene (blood) of Japanese was from near the Lake Baikal, one of a gene hunter, Matsumoto Hideo said.

Pg 442 homeland of Japan is from Baltic lake, Siberia
http://www-bsac.eecs...of_Japanese.pdf

your source didn't say anything about the two "mongorians" of yours,nor did it say northern mongorians are japanese or native american and neither did it say the southern mongorians being chinese,filipino and malayans.

you should see the native malays and filipines yourself and tell me if they look like chinese or not.
granted,i will provide pics for you

native malayans,do they look anything like chinese?i don't even know how did you come up with the idea that chinese and malayans are both southern mongoloid

But it does suggest Japanese people is not in the same group as Southern Chinese, native Taiwanese, Philippines and Thaïs, Indonesians...etc Native Taiwanese are similar to Malay, they are both descendants of Polynesians of a sort I think. P442 of http://www-bsac.eecs...of_Japanese.pdf

This idea of old and new Mongoloid are brought to my attention from a Japanese person, but I don't know exactly where it came from. But I find this theory weird that's why I am asking for opinions of it.

But there are morphological results stating the southern han is closer to general Japanese population including both jomon and yayoi, but in terms of Morphology and genetics, many Japanese are remote to han Chinese people, and scientists believe lumping all together is misleading , because some Japanese looks Caucasoid or Polynesian than Chinese.

Edited by Minty, 02 April 2006 - 01:30 PM.

[Minty]

All this "Samurang" stuff makes me crack up.

Ok, but this is the only link I can find between Koreans and Ainus. Like I said before I got this idea from somebody else and I can't find any other links that suggest this.

Does anybody know?

Also those who said there is no link between Ainu and Koreans besides their appearance is there any other prove? Because although some people are saying Chinese, Koreans and Japanese look alike but others say they don't, and genetically it is not quite the same.

http://www.kumanolif...istory/dna.html

Reported from DNA Analytic thinking.
Actual Japanese are intermixture of

1 Japanese 4.8%
2 Korean 24.2%
3 Chinese 25.8%
4 Ainu (Native Northern Japanese) 8.1%
5 Okinawa people (Native Southern Japanese) 16.1%
6 Other 21%

Where as Koreans are the blends of:
Korean 40.6%

Edited by Minty, 02 April 2006 - 01:51 PM.

[Gubook Janggoon]

Just as a note. The Samurang are a fabrication of the martial art "Haedong Gumdo". There are no historical references to Samurang in any of the old texts. The Gyeongdang or the Seonbae were probably the closest Goguryeo got to any sort of military organization.