58 replies to this topic

[LYY]

Sawa, since you are Theravada Buddhist it would be interesting if you can point out the differences in logic and philosophy with Mahayana Buddhism, that will make this topic more complete.

Theravada / Mahayana - again this is dichotomy!

BTW, I am not fooling around.
The dichotomy just reflects samsara.

[urofpersia]

And from 2004's conference between the two branches:
http://www.mcu.ac.th...B/document.html

Sawa,

thank you very much for the information. Any other you care to share please do.

Its interesting to note that in the presentations, the speakers for Theravada (All Thais unless I am mistaken) more than half appear to be laypersons based on their titles, while for Mahayana all the speakers appear to be monks, mostly Chinese with one Korean.

[General_Zhaoyun]

In the article which I posted here (1st post), it mentioned about Nargajuna.

For those who are not well-informed about Nargajuna (龍樹 in Chinese), he was an Indian philosopher (c. 150-250 CE), the founder of the Madhyamaka (Middle Path) school of Mahāyāna Buddhism, and arguably the most influential Indian Buddhist thinker after the Gautama Buddha himself.

His writings were the basis for the formation of the Madhyamaka (Middle Way) school, which was transmitted to China under the name of the Three Treatise (Sanlun) School. He is credited with developing the philosophy of the Prajnaparamita sutras, and was closely associated with the Buddhist university of Nalanda.

Here are some information from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagarjuna

Nāgārjuna's primary contribution to Buddhist philosophy is in the development of the concept of śūnyatā, or "emptiness," which brings together other key Buddhist doctrines, particularly anatta and pratītyasamutpāda (dependent origination). For Nāgārjuna, it is not merely humans that are empty of ātman; all things are without any svabhāva, literally "own-nature" or "self-nature", and thus without any underlying essence; they are empty of being. This is so because they are arisen dependently: not by their own power, but by depending on conditions leading to their coming into existence, as opposed to being. Nāgārjuna was also instrumental in the development of the two-truths doctrine, which claims that there are two levels of truth in Buddhist teaching, one which is directly true, and one which is only conventionally or instrumentally true, commonly called upāya in later Mahāyāna writings. Nāgārjuna drew on an early version of this doctrine found in the Kaccāyanagotta Sutta, which distinguishes nītārtha (clear) and neyārtha (obscure) terms -

About Nagarjuna's logic, let me point out some example:

all things exist,
all things do not exist,
all things both exist and do not exist,
all things neither exist nor do not exist.

This can be expressed as a 4-valued logic, with the values labeled

True,
False,
Both,
None.


Let’s try to build a game as the one up above.

lady = true
There is a lady before you.

no lady = false
You know what a lady is, and know that there is not one before you.

lady and no lady = both
There is a lady before you, but you cannot interact with her.

neither lady nor not lady = none
You are unaware of the concept of “lady.”

[General_Zhaoyun]

For those who want to know more about basic buddhist doctrine, I should contribute some here:

4 Noble Truths

The 4 noble truths were first taught in Buddhism when Sakyamunia Buddha was delivering his first sermon at deer Park around 500 BC. It is a fundamental teaching .

The 4 noble truths are:

1. Life is subjected to suffering (Dukka)
Suffering is an intrinsic part of life also experienced as dissatisfaction, discontent, unhappiness, impermanence.

2. Suffering is caused by attachment and craving

3. There is a way out of this suffering (which is to eliminate attachment and craving)

4. The way (path) that leads out of this suffering is Noble Eightfold Path


The Noble Eightfold Path

The Noble Eightfold Path is a path leading to enlightenment. It is path aimed to develop one's morality, wisdom and Mental concentration.

From http://en.wikipedia...._Eightfold_Path

Wisdom

(pañña)

1. Right Understanding (or Right View, or Right Perspective) - samma ditthi

And what, monks, is right understanding? Knowledge with regard to sadness, knowledge with regard to the origination of sadness, knowledge with regard to the stopping of sadness, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the stopping of sadness: This, monks, is called right understanding.

2. Right Thought (or Right Intention, or Right Resolve) - samma sankappa

"And what is right thought? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness: This is called right thought.

Virtue (Ethical Conduct)

(sila)

3. Right Speech - samma vaca

"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, abstaining from divisive speech, abstaining from abusive speech, abstaining from idle chatter: This, monks, is called right speech.

4. Right Action - samma kammanta

"And what, monks, is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from stealing, abstaining from unchastity: This, monks, is called right action.

5. Right Livelihood - samma ajiva

"And what, monks, is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This, monks, is called right livelihood.


Concentration (Mental Development)

(samadhi)

6. Right Effort (or Right Endeavour) - samma vayama

"And what, monks, is right effort?

(i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen.

(ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen (rejects ineptitude).

(iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen (hopes).

(iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence (tries), upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance (strives), non-confusion (concentrates), increase (grows), plenitude (achieves), development (branches out), & culmination (flowers in) of skillful qualities that have arisen:

This, monks, is called right effort."

7. Right Mindfulness - samma sati

"And what, monks, is right mindfulness?

(i) There is the case where a monk remains focused on (his/her) body in & of itself... ardent, aware, & mindful...putting away greed & distress with reference to the world.

(ii) (He/she) remains focused on feelings in & of themselves...ardent, aware, & mindful...putting away greed & distress with reference to the world.

(iii) (He/she) remains focused on the mind in & of itself...ardent, aware, & mindful...putting away greed & distress with reference to the world.

(iv) (He/she) remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves...ardent, aware, & mindful...putting away greed & distress with reference to the world.

This, monks, is called right mindfulness."

8. Right Concentration - samma samadhi

"And what, monks, is right concentration?

(i) There is the case where a monk...not ardent, quite withdrawn from sensuality, but mindful and alert, enters in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from detachment, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation.

(ii) With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration; fixed single-pointed awareness free from directed thought & evaluation; assurance.

(iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & fully aware, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana which the Noble Ones declare to be "Equanimous & mindful, (he/she) has a pleasurable abiding."

(iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain...as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress...he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither in pleasure nor in pain.

This, monks, is called right concentration."

[General_Zhaoyun]

Dependent Origination
(chinese: 緣起, sanskrit:Pratitya-samutpada)

From: http://en.wikipedia....ent_origination

The doctrine of Pratitya-samutpada is Buddhism's primary contribution to metaphysics. Common to all Schools of Buddhism, it states that phenomena arise together in a mutually interdependent web of cause and effect. It is variously rendered into English as "dependent origination," "conditioned genesis," "dependent co-arising," "interdependent arising," etc.; (Pali paticca-samuppāda; Tib. rten cing 'brel bar 'byung ba).


General formulation

A general formulation of this concept goes:

With this as condition,
That arises.
With this NOT as condition,
That does NOT arise.

An example to illustrate:

You go on summer holiday to a hot climate, such as Arizona, Spain or Australia. It's a hot clear day and you're sunbathing by the hotel pool with the sun beating down on you. You will begin to feel hot, sweaty, uncomfortable, and soon feel thirsty. You go get yourself a drink to quench your thirst, and think "It's too hot to sit by the pool today, I'm going back to my hotel room where it's cooler, to read for a while".

With "hot summer sun" as condition,
Sweat, thirst and discomfort arises.
With "cool hotel room" as condition,
Sweat, thirst and discomfort do NOT arise.

This draws attention to the constant flux of "Coming to be, and Ceasing to be" that is happening all the time. All phenomena are subject to this unending interaction. And since all phenomena are dependent on other phenomena, they are all transient and impermanent.

Explanation of Dependent Origination

The enlightenment (Bodhi) of the Buddha Gautama was simultaneously his liberation from suffering and his insight into the nature of the universe – particularly the nature of the lives of ‘sentient beings’ (principally humans and animals). What the Buddha awakened to (Bodhi means ‘to awaken’) was the truth of dependent origination. This is the understanding that any phenomenon ‘exists’ only because of the ‘existence’ of other phenomena in an incredibly complex web of cause and effect covering time past, time present and time future. Because all things are thus conditioned and transient (anicca), they have no real independent identity (anatta) so do not truly ‘exist’, though to ordinary deluded minds this appears to be the case. All phenomena are thus fundamentally insubstantial and ‘empty’ (sunya). Wise human beings, who ‘see things as they are’ (yatha-bhuta-ñana-dassana), renounce attachment and clinging, transform the energy of desire into awareness and understanding, and eventually transcend the conditioned realm of form becoming Buddhas or Arahants.

The abiding of an awakened sage is not ‘in the world’ as such (cf. ‘The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the son of man has nowhere to lay his head’. Matt 8:20) but has its root and ground in the ‘unconditioned element’, ie. Nibbana. After his enlightenment, the Buddha Gautama referred to himself as the Tathāgata meaning 'one who comes from "thusness"' or 'the one thus gone' highlighting the ambiguous ontological status of one whose center of being is in the unconditioned realm. The Buddha called it Amarāvatī or ‘the abode of the deathless’ (cf. the expression ‘eternal life’ or ‘everlasting life’ used in the gospels).

With respect to the destinies of human beings and animals, dependent origination has a more specific meaning as it describes the process by which such sentient beings incarnate into any given realm and pursue their various worldly projects and activities with all the concomitant suffering involved. Among these sufferings are ageing and death. Ageing and death are experienced by us because birth and youth have been experienced. Without birth there is no death. One conditions the other in a mutually dependant relationship. Our becoming in the world, the process of what we call ‘life’, is conditioned by the attachment and clinging to certain ideas and projects such as having a family or making money. This attachment and clinging in turn cannot exist without craving as its condition. The Buddha understood that craving comes into being because there is sensation in the body which we experience as pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. When we crave certain things such as alcohol, sex or sweet foods it is the sensation induced by contact with the desired object that we crave rather than the object itself. Sensation is caused by contact with such objects of the senses. The contact or impression made upon the senses (manifesting as sensation) is itself dependent upon the six sense organs which themselves are dependent upon a psycho-physical entity such that a human being is. The whole process is summarised by the Buddha as follows:


English Terms
with Ignorance as condition, Mental Formations arise
with Mental Formations as condition, Consciousness arises
with Consciousness as condition, Name & Form arises
with Name & Form as condition, Sense Gates arises
with Sense Gates as condition, Contact arises
with Contact as condition, Feeling arises
with Feeling as condition, Craving arises
with Craving as condition, Clinging arises
with Clinging as condition, Becoming arises
with Becoming as a condition, Birth arises
with Birth as condition, Aging & Death arises

Sanskrit Terms
with Avidya as condition, Samskara arise
with Samskara as condition, Vijnana arises
with Vijnana as condition, Namarupa arises
with Namarupa as condition, Sadaytana arises
with Sadaytana as condition, Sprsa arises
with Sprsa as condition, Vedana arises
with Vedana as condition, Trsna arises
with Trsna as condition, Upadana arises
with Upadana as condition, Bhavana arises
with Bhavana as condition, Jati arises
with Jati as condition, JaraMarana arises

The thrust of the formula is such that when certain conditions are present, they give rise to subsequent conditions, which in turn give rise to other conditions and the cylical nature of life in Samsara can be seen. This is graphically illustrated in the Wheel of Life (Bhavacakra).

There appears to be widespread misunderstanding of the formula in relation to time scales. Many references made to Pratitya-samutpada are expressed over lifetimes. While this is true in the wider sense, more practically, this is to be seen as a daily cycle occurring from moment-to-moment throughout each day.

Pratitya-samutpada is one part of a group of Buddhist doctrines that work together to bring an end to suffering (duhkha) and the release from Samsara. These are:

* Three Fires
* Three Signs of Being
* Four Noble Truths
* Five Skandhas
* Karma (in parts)

Its necessary to refer to the above in order to fully understand and make use of Pratitya-samutpada.

For example, Avidya the first condition, its necessary to refer to Three Signs of Being for a fuller explanation and a better understanding of its fit and function within Pratitya-samutpada. Its also necessary to understand the Three Fires and how they fit in the scheme of things. A quick glance at the Wheel of Life (Bhavacakra), you will note that the Three Fires sit at the very centre, of the schemata, and drive the whole edifice.

Twelve Nidanas

One application of Dependent Origination is to the rebirth process and is known as the Twelve Nidanas or the Twelve Links of Conditioned Existence. In this application of pratitya-samutpada, each link is conditioned by the preceding one, and itself conditions the succeeding one. These cover three lives:

Former Life

* ignorance
* activities which produce karma

Current Life

* consciousness
* name and form (personality or identity)
* the twelve domains (5 physical senses + the mind + forms, sounds, ..., thoughts)
* contact (between objects and the senses)
* sensation (registering the contact)
* desire (for continued contact)
* attachment

Future Life

* becoming (conception of a new life)
* birth
* old age and death.

To understand this, it is necessary to study different sorts of conditions, because only one of them is called "causal condition". Per exemple, ignorance can determines activities as an "object condition" if one... decide to reduce ignorance.
And then because in this life one has been ignorant, and acted in such a way as to produce karma, the cycle continues round again.

Nibbana (Skt Nirvana) is often conceived of as stopping this cycle. By removing the causes for craving, craving ceases. So with the ceasing of birth, death ceases. With the ceasing of becoming, birth ceases... and so on until with the ceasing of ignorance no karma is produced, and the whole process of death and rebirth ceases. In fact the opportunity for change comes between the stages of sensation and desire, since as we saw above it is craving that drives the whole process. If one can simply experience sensations without desiring, then craving will not arise, and one can begin to be free from the cycle of birth and death.

[ih8eurocentrix]

how does one prevent suffering when attacked violently

[LYY]

how does one prevent suffering when attacked violently

八風吹不動
一庇過江來

[LYY]

About Nagarjuna's logic, let me point out some example:

all things exist,
all things do not exist,
all things both exist and do not exist,
all things neither exist nor do not exist.

This can be expressed as a 4-valued logic, with the values labeled

True,
False,
Both,
None.


Let’s try to build a game as the one up above.

lady = true
There is a lady before you.

no lady = false
You know what a lady is, and know that there is not one before you.

lady and no lady = both
There is a lady before you, but you cannot interact with her.

neither lady nor not lady = none
You are unaware of the concept of “lady.

When context changes due to Mind ...

The refinement of the aggregate of mind (Khanda) will inevitably transcend one's perception appropriate to the volition of one's mind.

For those who want to know more about basic buddhist doctrine, I should contribute some here:

4 Noble Truths

The 4 noble truths were first taught in Buddhism when Sakyamunia Buddha was delivering his first sermon at deer Park around 500 BC. It is a fundamental teaching .

The 4 noble truths are:

1. Life is subjected to suffering (Dukka)
Suffering is an intrinsic part of life also experienced as dissatisfaction, discontent, unhappiness, impermanence.

2. Suffering is caused by attachment and craving

3. There is a way out of this suffering (which is to eliminate attachment and craving)

4. The way (path) that leads out of this suffering is Noble Eightfold Path

1. Life is subjected to suffering (Dukka)
Taichi - entropy dependent

2. Suffering is caused by attachment and craving
Yang characteristic - +ve entropy

3. There is a way out of this suffering (which is to eliminate attachment and craving)
Yin characteristic - -ve entropy

4. The way (path) that leads out of this suffering is Noble Eightfold Path
Tao

Edited by LYY, 25 October 2005 - 05:09 AM.

[LYY]

HEAVEN: Wisdom-(pañña)
MAN:Concentration (Mental Development)-(samadhi)
EARTH(Reality) :Virtue (Ethical Conduct)-(sila)

Sila is virtually a practice in the Reality domain.
Samadhi is a domain requiring efforts, determination and patience in maintaining peace and mindfulness, and hence - MAN.
Pañña is the results of Sila and Samadhi resulting in an inertia and dispensing of peace and mindfulness, and the distillation of peace and mindfulness - WISDOM, and so the Heaven

[LYY]

xplanation of Dependent Origination

The enlightenment (Bodhi) of the Buddha Gautama was simultaneously his liberation from suffering and his insight into the nature of the universe – particularly the nature of the lives of ‘sentient beings’ (principally humans and animals). What the Buddha awakened to (Bodhi means ‘to awaken’) was the truth of dependent origination. This is the understanding that any phenomenon ‘exists’ only because of the ‘existence’ of other phenomena in an incredibly complex web of cause and effect covering time past, time present and time future. Because all things are thus conditioned and transient (anicca), they have no real independent identity (anatta) so do not truly ‘exist’, though to ordinary deluded minds this appears to be the case. All phenomena are thus fundamentally insubstantial and ‘empty’ (sunya). Wise human beings, who ‘see things as they are’ (yatha-bhuta-ñana-dassana), renounce attachment and clinging, transform the energy of desire into awareness and understanding, and eventually transcend the conditioned realm of form becoming Buddhas or Arahants.

see things as they are

=> 001001 (Hex 52), the blockage and reversal of entropy cycle, and hence a gateway to wisdom


renounce attachment and clinging

=> The breakdown of entropy cycle of 010101 <=> 101010 [Hex63 <=> Hex64]


transform the energy of desire into awareness and understanding

=> Living a life in accord with the Dao until the total elimination of ignorance, the root of the proliferation of Taichi.


transcend the conditioned realm of form

=> Transcend the cycle of 111111 (conditional) <=> 000000 (unconditional) [Hex1 <=> Hex2] and hence in unity with the Taichi, i.e. on the Dao.


The state of Buddhahood

=> you guess ...

[somechineseperson]

From the articles GZ posted:
There so many exaggerating claims that Confucius was agnostic, or that Confucianism initially rejected all things supernatural. The usual quote that we hear in support is "I do not know life, how do I know death?", but this is one quote. As a professor of mine once said, there are so many Confucian classical texts that have such diversity that it's easy to prove anything from them. Fact of the matter is that Confucianism isn't always consistent with most things. To unify Confucian thought is like trying to draw a pattern to connect a bunch of scattered dots, but no pattern would ever connect all the dots. It's probably safe to say that Confucianism is the accumulated intellectual effort of many individuals schooled in generally the same subjects and texts.

Confucius was perhaps much more skeptical than prophets like Moses, Jesus, and Muhammed, but certainly not as skeptical as the atheist, or even agnostic, philosophers. One of his sayings, though still isolated and stands on its own, gives us very interesting insight into the extremely complex and nuanced religious view of Confucius: "Honor the ghosts and spirits and distant yourself from them." This distancing of oneself from the spiritual might be itself a form of respect (recognizing our unworthiness,) and yet it might also be a form of hesitation to rely too much on the supernatural. Yet honor for the spirits and not depending too much on them are the two concepts that are perfectly harmonious for Confucius. Another instance is recorded in Li Ji, where Confucius taught that treating the dead as alive might not be logical, but treating the dead as dead is certainly not affectionate. Confucius then suggested that one can perform rituals and pour out his heart, but does not have to have full belief about the after life, and he would still be living according to ritual propriety.

Furthermore, Confucius often spoke of Heaven not unlike how Christians speak of a personal, loving God. Confucius also said that someone who has committed serious wrongs cannot find sure help through prayers to Heaven. Confucius once also spoke of Heaven in very naturalistic terms, that Heaven does not speak, and all things in nature are in order.

In brief, it is probably best to categorize Confucius as being somewhere between religious and skeptical. I'm sorry if I drew a tangent. Please continue discussion about Buddhism.

The "spirits" or "gui-shen" Confucius said one should distance oneself from clearly do not correpond to the Supereme God of Heaven, but refer to deceased human spirits and spirits of nature. Strictly speaking they are not really "supernatural", but are subject to the same natural order as humans. In ancient China before the arrival of Buddhism and the consequent idea of the "six realms", there were no notions of supernatural spirits, except maybe the Supereme God Shangdi, who is held at a much higher level than all of the other spirits.

In fact, strictly speaking does the term "supernatural" have much meaning at all? I thought everything in creation is subject to the natural order created by God. Only God is supernatural in the strictest sense I.e. above the natural order. Human beings may attribute the label "supernatural" to events they do not yet understand, due to the very limited knowledge of humans regarding the natural realm.

I have seen another variant translation of the verse "获罪于天，无所祷也", which is "If one sins against Heaven, there is no one else to pray to."

[LYY]

This is the understanding that any phenomenon ‘exists’ only because of the ‘existence’ of other phenomena in an incredibly complex web of cause and effect covering time past, time present and time future. Because all things are thus conditioned and transient (anicca), they have no real independent identity (anatta) so do not truly ‘exist’, though to ordinary deluded minds this appears to be the case. All phenomena are thus fundamentally insubstantial and ‘empty’ (sunya).

The complex web of cause and effect is not so complex in the local level, if we know the meaning of the saying 錯蹤複雜.

The structure of the Hexagram presents us with the comprehensive way to see our situations because an hexagram is consisting of dynamic lines of multi-dimensional reflecting in various 卦(Hexagram) in Yi. The proper apprehension of these 卦 will make you 八面玲瓏 in addressing an issue, so as to say.

錯卦
蹤卦
互卦
複雜

[LYY]

The Binary Tree (derived from the recursion of a Dichotomy) is a good reflection of the existence of phenomenon in Samsara. Any node in the binary tree will never exist alone. A node exists because of the existence of other nodes that form a complete order of Binary Tree. IOW a node has no real identity to be called its own, but a transient reflection of existence via the accumulation or dispersal of entropies of all the nodes in the web of the binary tree. All phenomena are thus fundamentally insubstantial and ‘empty’ (sunya)

[General_Zhaoyun]

LYY, thanks for your interesting use of I-Ching to apply to buddhist philosophy. Probably that makes buddhist philosophy slightly easier to understand with the diagram. But again I wonder whether such use of Daoism/I-Ching method to analyse Buddhism is indeed appropriate or accurate.

Bearing in mind that this thread talks about Buddhism philosophy, so please do not side-track and go too off-topic by always referring to hexagram or I-Ching.

how does one prevent suffering when attacked violently

The most conventional way is to run away. But buddhism advocated calmness in the face of danger. If attacked violently, it's your fear that is causing you suffering. If you can cultivate equanimity, your heart will not even move (cultivating courage) in the face of danger.