177 replies to this topic

[Yun]

We're discussing possible changes now on http://www.chinahist...hp?showforum=26

[snowybeagle]

There are some mid-level ranks without the HanYüPinYin equivalents of the Chinese characters. Can someone clarify what these titles are suppose to be?

[General_Zhaoyun]

There are some mid-level ranks without the HanYüPinYin equivalents of the Chinese characters. Can someone clarify what these titles are suppose to be?

I've aded all the chinese characters to the equivalent rank.

Citizen (Shumin 庶民 ) 0
Magistrate (Xianling 县令) 5
Prefects (Taishou 太守) 10
Provincial Governor (Cishi/Dudu 刺使/都督) 30
Commandant (Shi Chijie 使持节)50
Chief Commandant (Jie Dushi 节度使) 80
Minister of the Guard (Hujun Zhongwei/Jinjun Tongshuai 护军中尉/禁军统帅) 100
Imperial Inspector (Jian Yushi 监御史) 150
Grand Mentor (Taishi 太师) 200
Grand Guardian (Taibao 太保) 300
Grand Tutor (Taifu 太傅) 400
Undersecretary (Shangshu Lang 尚书郎) 550
Chief State Secretary (Shangshu Ling 尚书令) 875
Supreme Censor (Da Sikong/Yushi Dafu 大司空/御史大夫) 1000
Grand Marshal (Da Sima/Taiwei 大司马/太尉) 1200
Prime Minister (Situ/Chengxiang 司徒/丞相) 1500
Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝) 2000

If you're interested in chinese bureaucratic rank, please refer to
http://fany419.blogm...Code=1000246303

[Yun]

(Situ/Chengxiang 司土/丞相)

土 is the wrong word.

Prefects (Taishou 太守) 10

It should be Prefect, without the 's'.

Commandant (Shi Chijie 使持节)50
Chief Commandant (Jie Dushi 节度使) 80

Shi chijie was not really a rank on its own, but rather an addition to a rank to indicate that the bearer had the authority to execute officials up to prefect level. Also, Jiedushi and Cishi did not exist as ranks at the same time. However, since the system is just for fun, we don't have to be too particular

[General_Zhaoyun]

Thanks yun for the correction..

Btw, do you know what is the chinese character for the rank

Executive State Secretaries (Shangshu Puye) ?

That is from your post
http://www.chinahist...p?showtopic=126

[Liang Jieming]

Cool, I just found out I'm a Supreme Censor (Sikong/Yushi Dafu 大司空/御史大夫)!

[Yun]

The 'pu' is the one in 'puren' (servant), and the 'ye' is the character that is usually pronounced as 'she', and means 'shoot' (as in 'she jian' for shooting arrows). The comp I'm using right now doesn't have Chinese characters.

BTW, Chinese official ranks are so complex and changed so much over history that I don't think it would help to make any lists here on CHF. But there are good Chinese-language dictionaries of official ranks available in the PRC (I bought one that was extremely cheap), while in English the best source (though the translation is different from mine) is Charles Hucker's thick and expensive "Dictionary of Official Titles in Imperial China".

Another good source on Han official ranks is Han Bielenstein's The Bureaucracy of Han Times, which is out of print but can be found in libraries.

[General_Zhaoyun]

So, I guess "Executive State Secretaries (Shangshu Puye 尚书仆射)" ? Is the chinese character correct?

Yeah, I agree chinese bureaucratic title/rank is really complex. I ought to get a dictionary of it.

[Yun]

So, I guess "Executive State Secretaries (Shangshu Puye 尚书仆射)" ? Is the chinese character correct?

Yes, that's right. Will you be using it in the Ranking System?

[General_Zhaoyun]

Yeah.. perhaps, I'll add that in..

[BlueDragonMagik]

I've aded all the chinese characters to the equivalent rank.

Citizen (Shumin 庶民 ) 0
Magistrate (Xianling 县令) 5
Prefects (Taishou 太守) 10
Provincial Governor (Cishi/Dudu 刺使/都督) 30
Commandant (Shi Chijie 使持节)50
Chief Commandant (Jie Dushi 节度使) 80
Minister of the Guard (Hujun Zhongwei/Jinjun Tongshuai 护军中尉/禁军统帅) 100
Imperial Inspector (Jian Yushi 监御史) 150
Grand Mentor (Taishi 太师) 200
Grand Guardian (Taibao 太保) 300
Grand Tutor (Taifu 太傅) 400
Undersecretary (Shangshu Lang 尚书郎) 550
Chief State Secretary (Shangshu Ling 尚书令) 875
Supreme Censor (Da Sikong/Yushi Dafu 大司空/御史大夫) 1000
Grand Marshal (Da Sima/Taiwei 大司马/太尉) 1200
Prime Minister (Situ/Chengxiang 司徒/丞相) 1500
Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝) 2000

If you're interested in chinese bureaucratic rank, please refer to
http://fany419.blogm...Code=1000246303

I think this is such a "cool" ranking system. ... My Chinese is so so bad. ... Is there a English translation out there.

Another question: Once a member hits over 1200 notes ... , can he make up his own title?

[General_Zhaoyun]

I think this is such a "cool" ranking system.  ... My Chinese is so so bad. ... Is there a English translation out there.

Another question:  Once a member hits over 1200 notes ... ,  can he make up his own title? 

No.. only when a member hits over 2500 post will he be able to choose his own custom title. He'll have to ask admin to change for it.

[snowybeagle]

I seem to be some sort of censor..what do I do?  Ban books?

The above quote from Gubook was taken from his introduction to new member LüFengxian in Member's Introduction.

I think it would be useful to give clarification in this thread (not the title) on the traditional job scope of some of the titles.

Gubook, FYI, the Censor, the English title of the Chinese title 大司空/御史大夫 was adopted based on an ancient Roman political office.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censor for the duties of the Roman Censor.

Perhaps our experts could shed more light.

From what I could gather, during the Qin and Early Western Han dynasty,
the prime ministership was divided into three portfolios -
(1) ChengXiang (丞相), usually considered as the main Prime Minister, though the actual duties/powers differ throughout history.
(2) YüShiDaFu (御史大夫), responsible for monitoring the performance and conduct of various officials, probably equivalent to the Permanent Secretary of the Civil Service or Public Service. Traditionally considered as the First Deputy Prime Minister
(3) TaiWei (太尉), the highest ranking official to assist the Emperor to manage the military affairs of the entire country. This position was open to civilians, and hence, a modern comparison would be Minister of Defence or Secretary of Defence rather than Grand Marshal, which connote the office bearer to be from the military.

Under Emperor Wu of Han (武帝), the TaiWei was retitled as DaSiMa (大司马).
Under Emperor Cheng of Han (成帝), YüShiDaFu was retitled as DaSiKong (大司空), which is Gubook's current title at the time of this posting.

Under Emperor Ai of Han (哀帝), last ruler of Western Han, the ChengXiang was retitled as DaSiTu (大司徒).

The prefix Da (大) meaning major, great(er) or superior was later removed during the Eastern Han Dynasty.

[Yun]

I translated Taiwei/Da Sima as 'Grand Marshal' partly because it sounds nice, but also because it was originally the highest military officer in the Qin and Western Han, and commander-in-chief of the army. The position was only given to civilians later on because it was purely honorific by the time of the Western Jin, authority over military affairs having been transferred to the State Secretary of the Army (Wubing Shangshu). However, in the late Northern Song under Song Huizong, Taiwei was revived as the highest military rank, which is why you see it in the Water Margin.

GZ, I've found out from research that the Grand Mentor was actually a higher rank than Grand Tutor and Grand Guardian. Grand Guardian was the lowest. So think you'll have to make adjustments on the status of the three Grands.

The Grand Mentor (Taishi) was originally the highest military officer in the Western Zhou - it would thus be better translated in that period as Grand Commander. The Spring and Autumn states converted it into one of the ruler's advisors, and the Qin abolished it. The Western Han revived it grouped it together with the Grand Tutor and Granf Guardian.

[Gubook Janggoon]

Wait..so I count people? That's not cool...must acheive next rank!