204 replies to this topic

[Tyler]

I created this thread for any question at all about the Late Han (nothing before the yellow turbans) and Three Kingdoms Dynasties. Anything about its rulers, its economy, its beginning, or its end. Your question should be answered quickly, so test us or help us answer some questions.

[Ghost_of_Han]

I always hear questioning that Sun family in Wu was not realted Sun Tzu. But seems to say with out a doubt in the Robert Moss transltion of Three Kingdoms that Sun family in Wu were without a doubt realted to Sun Tzu. If I remeber right don't they both come from the same region? Any one have any evidence or direct soucres to confirm or denine this? Or any thing at all?

[Bryan]

Well, one thing that you must always be careful with is to not take everything in the novel as fact... not saying you do, but just that one has to be careful with the novel. Anyways, while I'm not sure about what any secondary sources say, but Sun Jian's Sanguo Zhi biography says this:

Sun Jian had the style Wentai and was a man from Fuchun in Wujun. It was very likely that he was a descendant of Sun Wu.

[Tyler]

How common is it if to people of the same surname then have the same style?

[Ghost_of_Han]

Well its just strange to me that they wouldn't know for sure. I mean he was pretty famous and I don't think the family would forget a man like that. I think Sun Tzu was famous in his time. An example from the Three Kingdoms is Kong Rong he is said to be a descendant of Confucius. But like Bryan said that just might be the novel.

But I do know that during the end of Han Aidi's reign there was a man named Kong Guang, who was the 14th descendant of Confucius. And this is about 500 years after Conufucius's life, this family had a vivid memeroy and a family tree (I assume) of their liniage. This is why I find it strange that they aren't sure about Sun Tzu.

Liu Ce, in the Three Kingdoms they use the saying "Same family of 500 years ago" or somthing like that. But it means if you have the same surname but no blood connection you say that your family was realted over 500 years ago.

[Shadowfax]

But I do know that during the end of Han Aidi's reign there was a man named Kong Guang, who was the 14th descendant of Confucius. And this is about 500 years after Conufucius's life, this family had a vivid memeroy and a family tree (I assume) of their liniage.

I think there is a singer in Taiwan right now who is a descendent of Confucius. :mellow:

I think maybe some of these famous people's descendent had married into his wife's house and take her name. Thus they no longer use the same last name and people forget them.

[Tyler]

Zhuge Liang and Pang Tong were some of the Greatist minds of the Three Kingdom Era. But I remember them haveing the same teacher. Who was the teacher of these two and was he just as smart if not smarter as them.

[Bryan]

I have looked around and while so far I have yet to find that they had the same teacher (I can't remember if they even had a teacher or not...); however, I think that you may be thinking of the mountain recluse Sima Hui, Water Mirror...

[Gweilo]

Wasn't Dian Wei that really tough fighter who got killed rather early in the novel? Forgive me if that isn't the right guy, I am working from memory.

My question is: do the texts allude to anyone being a tougher personal combat fighter than him? Maybe Guan Yu? I am by no means an expert on all the generals, and I have no doubt this question has been hashed out countless times before, but I was curious on what the general consensus of the ancient texts was.

Thanks. :D

[Bryan]

Well, Gweilo, you would definitely not be wrong in that this question has been hashed out before... On with the question, then. Well, this question is not a simple one to answer, as personal favorites become involved, and then you have those who use the Sanguo yanyi as a bible, so to speak. Regardless, whether one hates him or not, Lu Bu would most definitely be in the running; while his prowess was respected by pretty much everyone at the time, his loyalty was the question of the day, so to speak. Guan Yu, another who was respected, has been the object of much debate, regarding his abilities. In the novel, Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Guan Yu slays countless generals, some who were real, and some who were fictional. Most of these generals Yu never killed, let alone "dueled" (a extremely common event in the novel, which is almost never in actual historical sources, such as the Sanguo Zhi, even though it too has it's flaws...). There is also Xu Chu of Qiao, whom Cao Cao compared to Fan Kuai, a personal guard of Liu Bang, and in truth, it is said that Xu Chu "always accompanied him [Cao Cao], never leaving his sight". In the Sanguo Zhi, it says that

When the attack on Zhang Xiu was made, [Xu Chu]led the attack; it was calculated that he beheaded ten thousand men.

. That excerpt has sparked some debate, as well, I think, as to whether he took those heads during the battle or after. If I think of any more, I'll post them, but at the moment I have to run...

[Ghost_of_Han]

Well its can be viewed as opinion or not, but people on other forums in the Three Kingdoms argue for a long time about this, and doesn't really mean anything. Dian Wei was used most for defensive stuff along with Xu Chu. So you can't really fairly compare them to generals that went out in the heat of battle headlong. But Dian Wei was said extremly strong. In protecting Cao Cao he fought to the death, when he lost his weapon he picked up two bodies (that he had killed) and swung them around using them as weapons. Finally he was shot down by arrows (I think), but even after his death no one would go past his corpse on foot cause he was that intimadating. This is all according to the novel also.

[Tyler]

Once he was dead the troops barged on threw and attacted I'm sure. The novel is known to lie.

[Tyler]

Can anyone share some info on Zhuge Liang's and Sima Yi's child hood. Historical info please.

[Gweilo]

Thanks guys, I'm happy, we can lay the 'toughest fighter' debate to rest now. :P

[Bryan]

Well, actually, Ghost of Han, it wasn't arrows that killed him:

Dian Wei battled at the gate preventing the traitors from entering. The troops then entered from the other gates. At the time Dian Wei had about ten or so men; they all fought a desperate battle; each fought like ten men. The traitors numbered many and were coming from front and rear. Dian Wei using his long crescent halberds attacked left and right destroying ten or more. The surrounding area littered with many casualties and dead. Dian Wei received over ten cuts, yet he continued to fight despite lacking troops. Dian Wei held onto two traitors underneath his arms, killing them. The remaining traitors dared not to advance any further. Dian Wei continued attacking the traitors, killing numerous men. His wounds took its toll, he let out a great cry and then died.

From his SGZ bio ^

As for info on Zhuge Liang and Sima Yi's childhoods, I can give you what it says in Zhuge Liang's Sanguo Zhi bio:

Zhuge Liang had the style Kongming and was from Yangdu in Langya. He was a descendant of Zhuge Feng, who had been the Colonel Director of Retainers during the Han. His father Zhuge Gui, styled Jungong, was Commandery Assistant in the last days of the Han. Zhuge Liang was orphaned early. His uncle Zhuge Xuan was appointed Grand Administrator of Yuzhang by Yuan Shu and took Zhuge Liang and his younger brother Zhuge Jun with him. Then the Han Court reviewed the appointment and sent Zhu Hao to replace Zhuge Xuan. Because Liu Biao was an old acquaintance of his, Zhuge Xuan went to serve him. After his uncle's death, Zhuge Liang tilled the fields, delighting in reciting the Ode to Liangfu. He was eight chi tall and frequently compared himself to Guan Zhong and Le Yi. At the time noone would acknowledge that he had such ability. Only Cui Zhouping of Boling and Xu Shu of Yingchuan, who were friendly with Zhuge Liang, regarded that it was indeed as he said.

I have yet to find a translated version of Sima Yi's Sanguo Zhi bio, unfortunately... although I know where to find the complete SGZ online, it's in Chinese...