[hansioux]

warhead, on Jan 14 2005, 11:49 AM, said:

The Byzantine called Tang Tabgach because their embassy sent eastward to search for an alliance against the arabs in the 630s met a group of western turks which called Tang Tabgach, so thats how the byzantines called it.

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Tang Tabgach <-- That's a group of western turks? Besides, if that was a group of Turks, why would the Byzantines call China by that name? It's not like the eastern romans didn't know about Turks.

[Yun]

No, what Warhead meant is that the Western Turks called the Tang "Tabgach", as in they referred to the Tang empire as the Tabgach (Tuoba?).

[hansioux]

Yun, on Jan 15 2005, 12:49 AM, said:

No, what Warhead meant is that the Western Turks called the Tang "Tabgach", as in they referred to the Tang empire as the Tabgach (Tuoba?).

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Ok, got it.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Yes, since the Wei was such an influencial state that even after its collapse, the turkic people still called its successor states as Tabgach.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

The only people that might refered to the Tang empire as Tang is perhaps the leading clans of the turks which enters direct diplomatic negotiation with the Tang.

[Yihesan]

Warhead, I didn't ask the name of the Tuoba's dynasty in China, I asked how the original Tuoba tribe of the Xianbei people named itself.

[JDuvall]

Is anything known about the wives and mothers of any of these Tujue/Gok Turk/Turuk rulers. Specifically, there's a question being discussed on another forum/news group about the possibility of the Xi-Wei princess who was married first to Bumin, and then apparently to Istemi, being the mother of the Tujue princes who became the mother of the Homizd IV of Persia (r. 579-590). Are there any sources which might address this issue?

Thanks.

Jeff Duvall

[Yun]

Jeff, I was invited to that group by Ford Mommaerts-Browne, and read the discussion. I have looked through the Zhou Shu records on the Western Wei emperors (there are none in the Wei Shu), and also their description of Persia (Bosi), but there is no mention of Princess Changle's daughter being married off to the Sassanians. However, this is not surprising, since Princess Changle's descendants would not be considered part of the Western Wei aristocracy.

Could you elaborate on the Sassanian record of Homizd IV's mother? On Mommaerts-Browne's chart, she is indicated as 'Kayen of Turmania'.

I'd also be very pleased if you could provide a link to Valentin C. Golovachev's "Matricide Among the Touba-Xianbei and its
Transformation During the Northern Wei", which you said was available online.

[JDuvall]

Yun,

Here's the link for the Golovachev article: http://www.clas.ufl....nal/volume%202/

I found it on the Early Medival China webpage. You should also be able to find a couple of article there by Dr. Jennifer Holmgren. In addition, a number of Holmgren's articles on the Northern Wei dynasty and its successor states have been compiled and published in book form under the title *Marriage, Kinship and Power in Northern China* (Variorum, 1995).

The marriage between Istemi's daughter (called Kayen of Turkmania in Ford's charts) and Khosrow/Chosroes I of Persia (r. 531-579) seems to be widely accepted -- you can find references to it in any number of sources both online (via Google) as well as in print, but they are all, as far as I can determine so far, secondary sources and I've not yet had a chance to check the notes (etc.) to see what primary sources such claims are being based upon. One such source, which I have on hand, is Rene Grousset's *The Empire of the Steppes: A History of Central Asia* (1939, rprnt. Rutgers University Press, 1997). The same holds true for placing this same princess (i.e. Istemi's daughter) as the mother of Khosrow/Chosroes I's son and successor, Hormizd/Hormazd IV "the Turk" (r. 579-590).

My concern, once I began looking more closely at this possible link between the Persian Sassanids and Western Wei/Norther Wei (which might in turn prove to be a link between various Western dynasties and China), was whether or not it was even remotely possible (chronologically) for the Western Wei princess to have been the grandmother of Hormizd/Hormazd IV given the fact that most of the sources I've seen so far seem to indicate that Istemi's marriage to Chang-lo/Changle would have taken place after his brother's death in 552/553. I gather that it was perfectly acceptable practice among the Turkish Khans for the successor sons/brothers of a dead Khan to select various wives, concubines, etc., out of his harem and add them to their own (so it would be plausible that Istemi would have taken the Western Wei princess as his wife following his brother's death), but I'm not sure a child of such a marriage (assuming it didn't take place until 552/3) would have been old enough to pass along to Khosrow/Chosroes I of Persia early enough for their child to be Hormizd/Hormazd IV. In short, the daughter Istemi sent to Persia could just as likely been born to another of his wives, concubines, etc. And that's why I was curious about knowing whether or not any Chinese sources say anything about the other wives (as well as the mothers) of these early Tujue/Gok-Turk/Turuk Khans.

I'll see if I can gather together a bibliography on the marriage between Persia and the Turks and Hormizd/Hormazd IV's mother being the daughter of Istemi and post it here when time permits.

Jeff

Yun, on May 6 2005, 09:42 PM, said:

Jeff, I was invited to that group by Ford Mommaerts-Browne, and read the discussion. I have looked through the Zhou Shu records on the Western Wei emperors (there are none in the Wei Shu), and also their description of Persia (Bosi), but there is no mention of Princess Changle's daughter being married off to the Sassanians. However, this is not surprising, since Princess Changle's descendants would not be considered part of the Western Wei aristocracy.

Could you elaborate on the Sassanian record of Homizd IV's mother? On Mommaerts-Browne's chart, she is indicated as 'Kayen of Turmania'.

I'd also be very pleased if you could provide a link to Valentin C. Golovachev's "Matricide Among the Touba-Xianbei and its
Transformation During the Northern Wei", which you said was available online.

[Grand Genealogist]

Yihesan, on May 31 2004, 05:49 AM, said:

Here are the list of Tujue ( Türük / Gök Türk / Tujue 突厥 ) rulers:

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Do you know of any source for a genealogy of this dynasty, with OR without the Khazar Khagans?

This post has been edited by Grand Genealogist: 14 March 2008 - 02:42 PM

[Yihesan]

Unfortunately, not yet...

General Zhaoyun or any other mods, please re-sticky this thread.

[kaixin]

I wonder if there is any sort of connection between the Tujue royal name of "Ashina" with "Attila" of the Huns? Both groups are reputed to be descended from the Xiongnu.

[Yihesan]

There probably aren't such a connection. The Ashina appeared in the Southern Altais, Attila's lineage continued as the Bulgar khans in the Pontic Steppes.

[kaixin]

There are also quite a few Tujue (Gokturk) rulers with the title "Arsila". I still think there is some kind of connection with "Attila" of the Huns.

[Yihesan]

Well "Arsila" is a modified form in one of the Gök Türks' neighbors' languages, it's original form is Arslan (Lion).