82 replies to this topic

[somechineseperson]

Now according to the pronunciation of Old Chinese, which was used during the Zhou Dynasty (1122/1121 - 256 BC), Shang Di is pronunced as "Zhandai" or probably "Shandai", similar to the pronunciation of the word in today's Catonese dialect. (Catonese speakers here verify this for me, how do you pronunce 上帝?)

But in the Hebrew Old Testament, God is sometimes referred to by the Hebrew name "El Shaddai" (literally this means Almighty, in Hebrew, the term LORD Almighty would be Yahweh El Shaddai). Notice the similarity in the prounication between "El Shaddai" and "Shandai". In addition, we know the meanings of these two names are very similar as well, for the Chinese God and the Hebrew God share many attributes. So is this a mere coincedence of history? What do you think?

Edited by somechineseperson, 05 November 2005 - 03:35 PM.

[jwrevak]

Now according to the pronunciation of Old Chinese, which was used during the Zhou Dynasty (1122/1121 - 256 BC), Shang Di is pronunced as "Zhandai" or probably "Shandai", similar to the pronunciation of the word in today's Catonese dialect. (Catonese speakers here verify this for me, how do you pronunce 上帝?)

But in the Hebrew Old Testament, God is sometimes referred to by the Hebrew name "El Shaddai" (literally this means Almighty, in Hebrew, the term LORD Almighty would be Yahweh El Shaddai). Notice the similarity in the prounication between "El Shaddai" and "Shandai". In addition, we know the meanings of these two names are very similar as well, for the Chinese God and the Hebrew God share many attributes. So is this a mere coincedence of history?

Probably.

[saltnlight]

I read an interesting book about the ancient chinese characters caring biblical accounts of the fall and the flood (even salvations or sacrifice). When you think of it though, it make sense if the language is confused during the tower of babel and all people spread out after that, then they'll be caring the traditions and the stories with them (their "oral" traditions about the creation, the fall, the flood, etc). Anyway, El Shaddai already means "God Almighty" ^^ Nothing is "mere coincidence".

[Feiyu]

Shaddai in the bible is not god’s name but rather a description -it's an adjective.
There are several interpretation to what it means :
Shaddai can be related to breasts and thus describing god as the source from which we feed.
Some think it comes from the root ש.ד.ד which means powerful
The common interpretation is shaddai being composed out of two words sh שֶׁ- and dai- דַּי - which roughly translate as “that which is enough”, something like ‘he who encompasses everything’.
So I think there is no basis for comparison with the Chinese

Edited by Feiyu, 06 November 2005 - 08:58 AM.

[somechineseperson]

Shaddai in the bible is not god’s name but rather a description .
There are several interpretation to what it means :
Shaddai can be related to breasts and thus describing god as the source from which we feed.
Some think it comes from the root ש.ד.ד which means powerful
The common interpretation is shaddai being composed out of two words sh שֶׁ- and dai- דַּי - which roughly translate as “that which is enough”, something like ‘he who encompasses everything’.
So I think there is no basis for comparison with the Chinese

I think the root meaning of El Shaddai is probably "all-powerful", as in Almighty. But still, El Shaddai is used as one of the names for God in the Old Testament.

[esse]

I can't see any connection to be honest. The concept of God in these two world are so different it's impossible to build any bridge.

[somechineseperson]

I can't see any connection to be honest. The concept of God in these two world are so different it's impossible to build any bridge.

Sorry for asking you a personal question, are you a Christian?

Please tell me in what ways do you think they are so different? Thanks.

Edited by somechineseperson, 06 November 2005 - 08:04 PM.

[MengTzu]

Phonetic similarities without the regards for meaning of words are insufficient for etymological studies. "Shangdi" doesn't mean "almighty."

[esse]

Sorry for asking you a personal question, are you a Christian?

Please tell me in what ways do you think they are so different? Thanks.

I am an agnostic-come-atheist, but that has nothing to do with the question here.

The most important thing about the God in Judaism and all its varieties, inclusing all Christian flavors and both Islam isn't just a label, but also a metaphysical being who was responsible for the very creation of this universe (and the extremely significant role science can't with any reason permanently dislodge him of); whereas Shangdi was a humanbeing after generation of practicing good virtue and behaviors was chosen to preside over a "heavenly bureaucracy of deities"(mirroring a bureaucracy of an imperial court) to watch over all earthly matters, not the mention at the same time share that power with the Buddhas from the west.

The bibbles themselves can be irrelevant (products of humanbeings), but Judaistic God will retain his significance as we keep asking the ultimate question (why are we here? What's the meaning of life?); whereas Shangdi was a creation of Taoism's superstitious wing, with a touch of Confucianism, and later with Buddhism's superstition thrown in the mix as well to explain daily phenomena, such as rain, storm, volcanoe, e.t.c... Later under influence from Buddhism, it also demonstrated the idea of hell and reincarnation.

I prefer the lores of Chinese deities anyday over the bibblical lores though -- just more entertaining. "Journey to the West" (Xi you ji) and "Deities making" (Feng shen) are just more fun to read than the bibble.

[DaMo]

I was actually going to post this "Shaddai/ShangDi" connection claim as an example of overzealous Christian evangelists seeing sonnets in fishnets. But it looks like someone got to it before me.

Shaddai = Sha (one who is, that which is) + Dai (sufficient, enough)
Shang Di = Shang (high, above, over) + Di (lord)

[Yun]

DaMo, Somechineseperson can hardly be considered an evangelist. He is not even sure if he wants to be a Christian. Call him a theological theorist if you will, but to use him as an example of overzealous evangelists is to set up a straw man to knock down.

[somechineseperson]

I am an agnostic-come-atheist, but that has nothing to do with the question here.

The most important thing about the God in Judaism and all its varieties, inclusing all Christian flavors and both Islam isn't just a label, but also a metaphysical being who was responsible for the very creation of this universe (and the extremely significant role science can't with any reason permanently dislodge him of); whereas Shangdi was a humanbeing after generation of practicing good virtue and behaviors was chosen to preside over a "heavenly bureaucracy of deities"(mirroring a bureaucracy of an imperial court) to watch over all earthly matters, not the mention at the same time share that power with the Buddhas from the west.

The bibbles themselves can be irrelevant (products of humanbeings), but Judaistic God will retain his significance as we keep asking the ultimate question (why are we here? What's the meaning of life?); whereas Shangdi was a creation of Taoism's superstitious wing, with a touch of Confucianism, and later with Buddhism's superstition thrown in the mix as well to explain daily phenomena, such as rain, storm, volcanoe, e.t.c... Later under influence from Buddhism, it also demonstrated the idea of hell and reincarnation.

I prefer the lores of Chinese deities anyday over the bibblical lores though -- just more entertaining. "Journey to the West" (Xi you ji) and "Deities making" (Feng shen) are just more fun to read than the bibble.

1. The Judaic God is the Creator of the universe. So is Shangdi. Read the wikipedia entry on Shangdi. Shangdi is not a human being. You have confused Him with the "jade emperor", which is a later Buddhist invention.

2. Shangdi was not "invented" by Daoism. Read the wikipedia entry on Shangdi. Shangdi is China's earliest deity, dating back to more than a thousand years before Daoism came into existence.

3. "Shangdi sharing authority with Buddha" was a much later Buddhist invention. Buddhism wasn't around when Shangdi was first worshipped.

4. If the "lores" are merely myths that do not reflect on reality, then the "lores" are ultimately meaningless and useless no matter how "fun" they are. "Fun" is not a criteria when searching for the Truth. "Journey to the West" and "Feng Shen Yan Yi" are just novels, perhaps interesting to read, but have no real significance. The Bible on the other hand, is not meant to be read as a fatansy novel. That is not the purpose of the Bible.

5. Shangdi govern over a multitude of natural and ancestral spirits who act as His ministers. In a similar way the Judaic God also govern over a multitude of angelic beings who act as His messengers.

[qrasy]

Now according to the pronunciation of Old Chinese, which was used during the Zhou Dynasty (1122/1121 - 256 BC), Shang Di is pronunced as "Zhandai" or probably "Shandai", similar to the pronunciation of the word in today's Catonese dialect. (Catonese speakers here verify this for me, how do you pronunce 上帝?)

Cantonese of Shang4 di4 =seung6 dai3
but Cantonese is not ancient enough. The second Yin category shows that there were no voicing. In Middle Chinese it was not d-.
copying from Starostin's Old Chinese reconstruction, it shows something like
*dangq-*teks

by the way I never heard of Chinese deity as "supereme creator".

1. The Judaic God is the Creator of the universe. So is Shangdi. Read the wikipedia entry on Shangdi. Shangdi is not a human being. You have confused Him with the "jade emperor", which is a later Buddhist invention.

From another thread I saw you wrote you have edited the Wikipedia entry majorly... But by the way Jade Emperor does not seem Buddhism invention.. More like Dao or Confucian.
And how could Jade Emperor be human being?

2. Shangdi was not "invented" by Daoism. Read the wikipedia entry on Shangdi. Shangdi is China's earliest deity, dating back to more than a thousand years before Daoism came into existence.

Hm... Isn't it "Tian" that is the earliest "deity"?

3. "Shangdi sharing authority with Buddha" was a much later Buddhist invention. Buddhism wasn't around when Shangdi was first worshipped.

I've never heard anyone worshipping Buddha as "supereme creator of universe".

4. If the "lores" are merely myths that do not reflect on reality, then the "lores" are ultimately meaningless and useless no matter how "fun" they are. "Fun" is not a criteria when searching for the Truth. "Journey to the West" and "Feng Shen Yan Yi" are just novels, perhaps interesting to read, but have no real significance.

The two "novels" were made by "altering" the true stories.

The Bible on the other hand, is not meant to be read as a fatansy novel. That is not the purpose of the Bible.

Yeah, the bible is supposed to be a serious story book.

5. Shangdi govern over a multitude of natural and ancestral spirits who act as His ministers. In a similar way the Judaic God also govern over a multitude of angelic beings who act as His messengers.

never heard of this.

Edited by qrasy, 08 November 2005 - 04:11 AM.

[USC]

Now according to the pronunciation of Old Chinese, which was used during the Zhou Dynasty (1122/1121 - 256 BC), Shang Di is pronunced as "Zhandai" or probably "Shandai", similar to the pronunciation of the word in today's Catonese dialect. (Catonese speakers here verify this for me, how do you pronunce 上帝?)

But in the Hebrew Old Testament, God is sometimes referred to by the Hebrew name "El Shaddai" (literally this means Almighty, in Hebrew, the term LORD Almighty would be Yahweh El Shaddai). Notice the similarity in the prounication between "El Shaddai" and "Shandai". In addition, we know the meanings of these two names are very similar as well, for the Chinese God and the Hebrew God share many attributes. So is this a mere coincedence of history? What do you think?

quite close in Cantonese, it's "Siong-dai"
but seldom Jewish use El Shaddai, but only Yahweh as their only God.

[somechineseperson]

by the way I never heard of Chinese deity as "supereme creator".

Well sorry to say this, but there are probably a lot of things you haven't heard. I've never heard of many things too. This cannot be a criteria for judging whether or not I am right.

From another thread I saw you wrote you have edited the Wikipedia entry majorly... But by the way Jade Emperor does not seem Buddhism invention.. More like Dao or Confucian.
And how could Jade Emperor be human being?

It certainly isn't a Confucian invention. There are both religious Daoist and Buddhist elements in this.

According to myths, the jade emperor was indeed a human being who rose to the heavenly court as its ruler as the reward after an extremely long period of Buddhist-type 修炼.

Hm... Isn't it "Tian" that is the earliest "deity"?

I think Tian and Di/Shangdi refer to the same Supereme Deity. "Di" was used earlier though.

I've never heard anyone worshipping Buddha as "supereme creator of universe".

That's because Buddhist philosophy thinks that the universe had no beginning in time. (Which by the way is an idea that is not supported by current scientific evidence) But actually in ancient Chinese myths the buddha had more authority than the jade emperor.

The two "novels" were made by "altering" the true stories.

Greatly altered, I would add.

never heard of this.

See for example http://www.newadvent...then/04223b.htm