82 replies to this topic

[somechineseperson]

Accelerated by endorsement from the very emperor himself Romans were worshipping a pretty generic pagan god -- the sun god, who was in no way could compete with this new and very sophisticated religion in the long run anyway.

It must also be said that the one most responsible for speading early Christianity, one of Christ's most senior and important disciples wasn't a Jew, but a Roman. After Christ was killed, he and his followers hung around Israel and Syria for a while, and finally settled in Rome.

Scholars in the ancient Greco-Roman world did not take the pagan idol-worshipping religion seriously. But the philosophers knew of Logos, the Word, which as the New Testament of the Bible says is Jesus Christ.

Apart from the pagan idols, some of the ancient Greek and Roman philosophers knew of God. Plato believes God dwells in the absolute and eternal realm of forms and created the material world by projecting "shadows" of the absolute forms into the physical world. Aristotle sees God as the Prime Mover or First Cause of the universe. Their ideas would have influences on later Christian thinkers, such as St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas.

Some philosophers in ancient China also knew of God. Confucius and Mozi see God as the Source of moral law and political authority. Mohist ethics is fundamentally based on Mozi's belief in a just God who rewards goodness and punishes evil. Laozi sees God as the Mother of the universe, the Great Dao which brought heaven and earth into being. And in the Chinese Bible, Logos or Word is translated as Dao, and Jesus Christ is the Dao in human flesh.

[esse]

Sure. For example the "China" section in the article http://www.homestead...s/universal.pdf

Color me unimpressed.

While there are numerous Chinese myths regarding creation, as there are many variants of creation myths in the Western world, the official and in a sense orthodox version of how the universe was created in ancient China comes from the ceremonial texts used in the annual sacrificial ceremonies conducted by the Chinese rulers for Shangdi. It is from these texts that we know in the official religion of ancient China, Shangdi is held up as the Creator of everything.

And what tribe would that be from? Ancient kings held sacrifices to Heaven and Earth -- an abstract concept without form, at least not in human form like Judaistic notion of God.

Not really. Religious Daoism only came into existence as a native Chinese response to the arrival of Buddhism, and its institutional structure was closely modelled on that of the Buddhists. Before religious Daoism there was only philosophical Daoism, which was not really a religion but a philosophical system like Platonism in the ancient Greco-Roman world. At any rate the worship of Shangdi predates both by many centuries.

OK, the Taoists QinShuihuang sent to acquire elixir too must have been product of later Taoists' imagination.

My ideas are not primarily based on the Daode Jing. However, it would be wrong in my view to say that there was certainly "no deity" in Daoism. For in the Daode Jing it is said:

Before the creation of heaven and earth,
There existed an incomprehensible One.

The "One" is what Laozi would call Dao, which is the Mother of the universe.

An abstract form, a singularity as product of philosophically thinking about the absolute origin of it all, not the same as Judaistic concept of an almighty.

The concept of Dao is in many ways similar to the concept of Logos in Greek philosophy, and literally in the Bible it is said:

In the beginning there was the Logos.
The Logos is with God, the Logos is God. He was with God at the very beginning.

Many of early Christian, especially the more literate ones were Greek -- they could have just stole the name and misconstrued a concept. The New Testament, or whatever materials that were used to compile the NT was in Greek before it was translated to Latin.

Just how on earth can you reconcile monotheism with polytheism that the Greeks apparently followed? Try to explain Zeus, Hera, Athena, Aphrodite, Diana, Hermes, Apollo ... how do those fit in your bibblical universe?

[somechineseperson]

And what tribe would that be from? Ancient kings held sacrifices to Heaven and Earth -- an abstract concept without form, at least not in human form like Judaistic notion of God.

Tribe? That would be the Han Chinese people. The majority ethnicity in China.

You are mistaken. The ancient rulers sacrificed to a personal Supereme God officially called - Huang Tian Shang Di. Literally it means "Supereme Soverign God of Heaven". To this day there is a spirit tablet addressed to Huang Tian Shang Di in Beijing's Temple of Heaven, which was first constructed in 1420 AD.

OK, the Taoists QinShuihuang sent to acquire elixir too must have been product of later Taoists' imagination.

Not sure about this. But it's possible.

An abstract form, a singularity as product of philosophically thinking about the absolute origin of it all, not the same as Judaistic concept of an almighty.

But Laozi does refer to the Dao as the Mother of the universe.

But I do agree there is a difference between speculation and logic-based philosophy and revelation-based religion. We simply cannot know much about the True God ourselves through reason alone, without Divine Revelation.

Many of early Christian, especially the more literate ones were Greek -- they could have just stole the name and misconstrued a concept. The New Testament, or whatever materials that were used to compile the NT was in Greek before it was translated to Latin.

Just how on earth can you reconcile monotheism with polytheism that the Greeks apparently followed? Try to explain Zeus, Hera, Athena, Aphrodite, Diana, Hermes, Apollo ... how do those fit in your bibblical universe?

Originally Logos is a philosophical concept. But the Christian claim is that Logos, the Origin of all things, literally became human and came to earth as Jesus Christ.

Scholars in ancient Greece did not take the polytheistic religion seriously. They only believed in the philosophical God.

[esse]

Tribe? That would be the Han Chinese people. The majority ethnicity in China.

The concept of Han Chinese as a culture only started well into Han. The concept of Han as an ethnic group was probably just premodern.

We're talking about ancient time. Shang was probably of different ethnical and cultural stock than Zhou, people of Chu weren't the same as those of central states, e.t.c...

You are mistaken. The ancient rulers sacrificed to a personal Supereme God officially called - Huang Tian Shang Di. Literally it means "Supereme Soverign God of Heaven". To this day there is a spirit tablet addressed to Huang Tian Shang Di in Beijing's Temple of Heaven, which was first constructed in 1420 AD.

1420 AD was a few thousand years and a couple religions removed from ancient time.

Not sure about this. But it's possible.

This is getting tiresome. Why don't you just admit the simple fact that Taoism predates Buddhism in China and let this one go.

But Laozi does refer to the Dao as the Mother of the universe.

A metaphor.

Scholars in ancient Greece did not take the polytheistic religion seriously. They only believed in the philosophical God.

Bold claim. Ancient Greek philosophers were closer to atheism than monotheism.

[somechineseperson]

The concept of Han Chinese as a culture only started well into Han. The concept of Han as an ethnic group was probably just premodern.
We're talking about ancient time. Shang was probably of different ethnical and cultural stock than Zhou, people of Chu weren't the same as those of central states, e.t.c...

Ok. Huaxia people then. The term "Huaxia" was used to denote the Chinese ethnic group from the earliest times, as the Shang Shu attests.

Most historians agree that both the Shang and the Zhou were Chinese peoples, like both Myceneans and Ionians were Greek peoples.

1420 AD was a few thousand years and a couple religions removed from ancient time.

The worship of Shangdi was a classical religious belief going back to the earliest times. Shang Shu, the earliest history text in ancient China, states that the earliest Chinese kings "offered sacrifice to Shangdi".

This is getting tiresome. Why don't you just admit the simple fact that Taoism predates Buddhism in China and let this one go.

Philosophical Daoism did predate Buddhism. But as an organised religion Daoism only dates back to the Eastern Han Dynasty, after Buddhism arrived in China from India.

A metaphor.

Maybe. Maybe not. How can you be so sure?

Bold claim. Ancient Greek philosophers were closer to atheism than monotheism.

Wrong. The three greatest ancient Greek philosophers, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, all believed in the existence of God. They were not atheists.

Edited by somechineseperson, 10 November 2005 - 07:48 PM.

[esse]

Ok. Huaxia people then. The term "Huaxia" was still to denote the Chinese ethnic group from the earliest times, as the Shang Shu attests.

Most historians agree that both the Shang and the Zhou were Chinese peoples, like both Myceneans and Ionians were Greek peoples.

More apt analogy would be Dorians and Hellens.

The worship of Shangdi was a classical religious belief going back to the earliest times. Shang Shu, the earliest history text in ancient China, states that the earliest Chinese kings "offered sacrifice to Shangdi".

Which really was convincing as a proof that he was a monotheist as opposed to pagan god.

Philosophical Daoism did predate Buddhism. But as an organised religion Daoism only dates back to the Eastern Han Dynasty, after Buddhism arrived in China from India.

Han Wudi himself looked for elixir to live forever.

Maybe. Maybe not. How can you be so sure?

Because he went on and told no further tale of this "mother".

Wrong. The three greatest ancient Greek philosophers, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, all believed in the existence of God. They were not atheists.

Proof?

[somechineseperson]

Which really was convincing as a proof that he was a monotheist as opposed to pagan god.

Shangdi is the Supereme God. All other spirits are just His ministers.

The ancient Chinese did not know much about God. All they knew were:

1. God is the Creator
2. God is the "parent of mankind"
3. God is Good
4. God is not represented by images or idols
5. God rewards goodness and punishes evil
6. God is the Ultimate Source of moral law and political authority
7. God is Supereme
8. Probably also that God is eternal and infinite

Han Wudi himself looked for elixir to live forever.

There were Daoist magicians during the Western Han era, but no organised Daoist religion.

Because he went on and told no further tale of this "mother".

He did not say much about the Dao anyway.

Proof?

Read books that talk about their philosophical ideas.

St. Augustine commented on Socrates:

“Socrates . . . saw that man had been trying to discover the causes of the universe, and he believed that the universe had its first and supreme cause in nothing but the will of the one supreme God; hence he thought that the causation of the universe could be grasped only by a purified intelligence.
That is why he thought it essential to insist on the need to cleanse one’s life by accepting a high moral standard . . . “

Like Confucius in China, Socrates believed he was sent on a special mission by God to "sting the lazy bull that is Athens". (Probably not the exact quote, which I can't remember)

Plato believed God dwells in the absolute realm of forms and created the physical realm by projecting "shadows" of forms in the absolute realm. He believes in teleology, that all things are created for a purpose, and because God is Good essentially all things are created for a good purpose.

Aristotle believed God is the Prime Mover or First Cause. St. Aquinas' First Cause proof originally came from Aristotle.

As with the ancient Chinese philosophers like Confucius, Laozi and Mozi, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle did not know much about God. But they did believe in the existence of God. They were certainly not atheists.

Edited by somechineseperson, 11 November 2005 - 08:06 AM.

[esse]

Shangdi is the Supereme God. All other spirits, ancestral and natural, are His ministers.

The ancient Chinese did not know much about God. All they knew were:

1. God is the Creator
2. God is the "parent of mankind"
3. God is Good
4. God is not represented by images or idols
5. God rewards goodness and punishes evil
6. God is the Ultimate Source of moral law and political authority
7. Probably also that God is eternal and infinite

Extrapolate enough, you might even get the 10 commandments from ancient Chinese teaching.

There were Daoist magicians during the Western Han era, but no organised Daoist religion.

Whoopth, look. The goalpost magically moved

He did not say much about the Dao anyway.

Not at all, only the whole darn book.

Read books that talk about their philosophical ideas.

I've actually read *some* of their materials for my philosophy class and for kicks. The idea that they were some sort of predated Chritian were just preposterous. Even suggesting that they would believe in a notion such as Judaistic god is absurb.

St. Augustine commented on Socrates:

“Socrates . . . saw that man had been trying to discover the causes of the universe, and he believed that the universe had its first and supreme cause in nothing but the will of the one supreme God; hence he thought that the causation of the universe could be grasped only by a purified intelligence.
That is why he thought it essential to insist on the need to cleanse one’s life by accepting a high moral standard . . . “

Like Confucius in China, Socrates believed he was sent on a special mission by God to "sting the lazy bull that is Athens". (Probably not the exact quote, which I can't remember)

Plato believed God dwelled in the absolute realm of forms and created the physical realm by projecting "shadows" of forms in the absolute realm. He believes in teleology, that all things are created for a purpose, and because God is Good essentially all things are created for a good purpose.

Aristotle believed God is the Prime Mover or First Cause. St. Aquinas' First Cause proof originally came from Aristotle.

As with the ancient Chinese philosophers like Confucius, Laozi and Mozi, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle did not know much about God. But they did believe in the existence of God. They were certainly not atheists.

Extrapolation, extrapolation, extrapolation. Read the original materials rather than the Christian intepretation of them.

[somechineseperson]

Extrapolate enough, you might even get the 10 commandments from ancient Chinese teaching.

I do think they knew these attributes about God though.

Whoopth, look. The goalpost magically moved

No, I did mean organised religion.

Not at all, only the whole darn book.

1. The Daode Jing is very short anyway, probably the shortest ancient Chinese text.
2. If you read the Daode Jing you will find that Laozi does not say much about the Dao directly, which is what I meant.

I've actually read *some* of their materials for my philosophy class and for kicks. The idea that they were some sort of predated Chritian were just preposterous. Even suggesting that they would believe in a notion such as Judaistic god is absurb.
Extrapolation, extrapolation, extrapolation. Read the original materials rather than the Christian intepretation of them.

They did not know much about God. But if you think they were atheists you are being intellectually irresponsible. I am studying a bit of western classics at the moment as a part of my course. Actually just today one of my supervisors was talking about Plato's and Aristotle's beliefs in God. My supervisor graduated in classics.

[DaMo]

Plato believed God dwelled in the absolute realm of forms and created the physical realm by projecting "shadows" of forms in the absolute realm. He believes in teleology, that all things are created for a purpose, and because God is Good essentially all things are created for a good purpose.

Speaking of Plato and the supposed "goodness" of God, surely you've heard of the Euthyphro Dilemma.

If God created the universe, he HAS to be "good", and everything he created HAS to be have been created for a "good purpose". If God sets down the ground rules, he gets to decide what is "good" and "bad". Unless, of course, God decides that "good" is "bad" and vice-versa; but that would make no difference, really. There is no way to verify that God cares for man's well-being, because it is he who defines what man's well-being means, no matter how much man has to personally suffer and sacrifice in the process. Claiming that God is "good" is like saying that an absolute dictator's reign is legal.

[Yun]

Speaking of Plato and the supposed "goodness" of God, surely you've heard of the Euthyphro Dilemma.

As I understand it (and I have read the Dialogue for Philosophy class before), the Euthyphro Dilemma resulted from the existence of legends about the Greek gods and goddesses doing very un-good things. In that context Euthyphro made himself a very easy target for Socrates.

[MengTzu]

Extrapolate enough, you might even get the 10 commandments from ancient Chinese teaching.

Actually it is easy to find 7 (or 6, depending which way you count them) of the ten commandments in Chinese culture. Chinese culture certainly teaches that we 1) honor our parents, 2) do not commit murder, 3) do not commit adultery, 4) do not steal, 5) do not bear false witness, 6) do not covet neighbor's wives, and 7) do not covet neighbor's properties. All of these are very easily found in Confucian, Taoist, and Buddhist writings.

[DaMo]

As I understand it (and I have read the Dialogue for Philosophy class before), the Euthyphro Dilemma resulted from the existence of legends about the Greek gods and goddesses doing very un-good things. In that context Euthyphro made himself a very easy target for Socrates.

Greek deities and demigods are a different matter; their actions can easily be described as good or bad. I'm talking about the application of this dilemma to the God being, who is believed to have created everything.

[somechineseperson]

Speaking of Plato and the supposed "goodness" of God, surely you've heard of the Euthyphro Dilemma.

If God created the universe, he HAS to be "good", and everything he created HAS to be have been created for a "good purpose". If God sets down the ground rules, he gets to decide what is "good" and "bad". Unless, of course, God decides that "good" is "bad" and vice-versa; but that would make no difference, really. There is no way to verify that God cares for man's well-being, because it is he who defines what man's well-being means, no matter how much man has to personally suffer and sacrifice in the process. Claiming that God is "good" is like saying that an absolute dictator's reign is legal.

"If God created the universe, he HAS to be "good"

Actually not necessarily strictly speaking. If we don't consider any other points, then God could also be completely non-normative, i.e. amoral. "Good" and "Bad" are not the only two alternatives.

But the point of philosophical argument is not empty speculation, but rather to affirm what we already know and from them infer what we do not yet know.

I hope you agree that there exists a natural moral law in human society, what the ancient philosophers called "natural law". (Even non-theistic religions like Buddhism believe there is a moral law) God created everything, including the moral law. The moral law is good both by definition and by an experiential argument - we know that obeying the moral law in general would be constructive and vice versa. So from the goodness of the created thing i.e. the moral law we can make an inference that the Creator is also good.

[Feiyu]

I find that a lot of this theorizing is actually based more on a kind of Chinese pride that insists that if Christianity is the true religion, the Chinese can't have been wrong for so long. So they must have been right at first and then went wrong along the way.

I think you are right that there is some Chinese pride involved. A little bit of bible research will show that Shaday and Shangdi have absolutely nothing in common even if we accept the highly debatable idea that the early Chinese worshiped the Jewish god.
Interestingly I encountered a similar kind of theory a few years ago in Israel. I met an orthodox Jew who was into martial art. He tried to convince me that martial arts were invented by the Jews and made their way through India to China. One of the arguments went like this , the word 氣 is pronounced ‘khi’ in Korean (is that right?) which sort of resembles the Hebrew word חי which can also mean ‘life’ (though to mean life it should be read khai and not khi)….