82 replies to this topic

[大泽升龙]

It is very interesting this topic was brought up again. Thanks a lot! I think the proposition in the title is false. However, there were indeed many interesting coincidences and possible connections between ancient China and west on this concept.

A faux evidence:
In Zhou literature, most of the time 帝 Di was used as 古帝 Gudi which sounds like Danish Gud or English God.

Some lexical comparisons:
帝 di (God) - 天 tian (heaven) - 神 shen (god)
Sumerian dingir - Turkish tanri - Mongolian tenger - Chinese tian - Hungarian isten - Chinese shen

The pictographic affinity:
In Oracle bone script, the writing of 帝 looks very similar to the Sumerian word for deity 米 dingir, which resembles a bunch of radiant light rays.

[DaMo]

Again, folk etymology ... assuming a combination of characters is a meaningless transliteration when it is a meaningful linguistic construct.

古 gu and 帝 di mean ancient and lord respectively. Claiming that 古帝 GuDi is related to Germanic Gud/Gott/God is in fact based on the same flawed principle as is claiming that 上帝 ShangDi is related to Semitic Shaddai.

[Old Man]

Quote:
大泽升龙 Posted 08 September 2008 - 04:18 PM
Some lexical comparisons:
帝 di (God) - 天 tian (heaven) - 神 shen (god)
Sumerian dingir - Turkish tanri - Mongolian tenger - Chinese tian - Hungarian isten - Chinese shen

The pictographic affinity:
In Oracle bone script, the writing of 帝 looks very similar to the Sumerian word for deity 米 dingir, which resembles a bunch of radiant light rays. Unquote.

FYI in Chinese, 帝 di means emperor/s and metaphorically meaning godly or godlike - 天 tian can mean sky or heaven - 神 shen meaning god/s.

There is no Chinese word for deity for Bible God or “supreme creator”. The missionaries adopted the words 上帝 Shangdi (meaning “emperor/s above”) for their Bible God.

"The writing of 帝 looks very similar to the Sumerian word for deity 米 dingir" is truly dishonest and definitely doesn’t look similar at all. The writing of 米 (mee) in Chinese is the word for rice. Don’t tell me that the Chinese 米 (mee) came from the Sumerian word for deity 米 dingir. Is it why, we Chinese eat lots and lots of “Sumerian deity” 米?

Quote:
somechineseperson Posted 10 November 2005 - 06:18 PM
The worship of Shangdi was a classical religious belief going back to the earliest times. Shang Shu, the earliest history text in ancient China, states that the earliest Chinese kings "offered sacrifice to Shangdi". Unquote.

That doesn’t prove that, he/they is the Bible God.

Walter A. Fairservis, Jr, in his book “The Origins of Oriental Civilization” published by The New American Library wrote:

“…We thus have in Shang China a vast animistic world in which lived not only one’s own ancestors but those of kings, warriors, sages _ any of whom could play a role in one’s life.

In additional there were the spirits of Nature, which needed attention at certain times. One of these is a vague but seemingly all-powerful deity named “Ti” or “Shang Ti”, who may have been the first ancestor of the Shang or perhaps of the Chinese themselves…” Unquote.

Why the earliest Chinese kings "offered sacrifice to Shangdi" but why not its citizens? Does it tell something else?
“Shangdi” is Shang emperors’ ancestral “gods” and the gods that the Shang people worshipped were the "San Huang Wu Di 三皇五帝". Even to this day, the Chinese still worship "San Huang Wu Di 三皇五帝".

Quote
somechineseperson Posted 10 November 2005 - 05:43 PM
The ancient rulers sacrificed to a personal Supereme God officially called - Huang Tian Shang Di. Literally it means "Supereme Soverign God of Heaven". To this day there is a spirit tablet addressed to Huang Tian Shang Di in Beijing's Temple of Heaven, which was first constructed in 1420 AD. Unquote.

Please supply information to where it said “The ancient rulers sacrificed to a personal Supreme God officially called - Huang Tian Shang Di” (皇天 上帝).

You will be surprised most ordinary Chinese have never heard of Huang Tian Shang Di unless they have visited the Temple of Heaven 天壇 in Beijing. Even my relatives and I never heard of Huang Tian Shang Di until I was in my late sixties when Christian evangelists tried to convert me into Christianity. Unlike Huang Tian Shang Di, Yuan Tian Shangdi (玄天上帝) and the Pure August Jade Emperor (玉皇上帝) are worshipped among the Chinese throughout the world.

So the Ming Emperor first built “The Temple” in 1420AD and called it 天壇 “the Sacrificial Altars to the Heaven/s” which the Westerners later refer the complex as Temple of Heaven. Ming emperors were Han Chinese and 天壇 “Temple of Heaven” and Forbidden City were built according to Taoist principles.

The question is, did the Ming emperor place the Huang Tian Shang Di spirit tablet in the temple? The present tablet is not by Ming emperors but of Qing emperors.

The Qing Emperors who replaced the Ming Dynasty in 1644 AD were Buddhists and royalty from Manchuria. Obviously when they reinstalled their ancestral godly tablet (祖仙神位 “Zuxian Shen-Wei”) in the Temple of Heaven, they would call the ancestors the “Past Emperors of the Sovereign/Royal Heaven” so we have 皇天 上帝, or "Heavenly Sovereign Shang-di "; Shang-di meaning past godly emperors.

Why the Huang Tian Shang Di spirit tablet is Qing emperors' ancestral godly tablet 祖仙神位?

Firstly, only the emperor’s direct families worshiped this tablet but not its citizens.

Secondly, the Huang Tian Shang Di spirit tablet is placed alongside with former eight Qing emperor spirit tablets in the Imperial Vault of Heaven in the Temple of Heaven.

Thirdly, Daoism was officially banned in China during the Qing Dynasty although its officials kept a closed eye to the practice. Also Christianity was banned for at least a century in China by Qing Emperor Kangxi.

How can the Qing emperors allowed the Supreme Creator of Christianity tablet be displayed in the Temple of Heaven with their former eight emperor godly tablets when they banned Christianity?

Surely, the Supreme God officially called - Huang Tian Shang Di- is not the "keeper" of past Qing emperors but the ancestral godly tablet 祖仙神位.

Edited by Old Man, 30 June 2011 - 09:45 PM.

[Old Man]

Quote: "Tablets of Huang Tian Shang Di” (皇天 上帝) and former eight Qing emperors".


When one logon to various websites of the Imperial Vault of Heaven in the Temple of Heaven, what one gets is the description of Huang Tian Shangdi tablet 皇天上帝 神位 but hardly any mention of the former eight Qing emperor tablets maybe because of self-interest in trying to hide the truth or no one actually knows. Some websites may include a photo or two of the former emperor tablets without even saying a word on emperor names or mention what they were.

For the interest of many viewers including me, the name of the emperors and what were inscribed in their tablets should be documented for all including the future generations before they (emperors on the tablets) are all forgotten.

It will be appreciated if the experts specialising on this thread especially those from Beijing and perhaps China History Forum management can share their knowledge with us in this matter.

Photos of the tablets of Huang Tian Shang Di” (皇天 上帝) and former eight Qing emperors below:

http://www.panoramio.../photo/28291397
by cqjlpgdr08.08.08.
This photo is selected for Google Earth [?] - ID: 28291397

and

http://en.wikipedia....aven_Inside.jpg
File:Temple of Heaven Inside.jpg
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Old Man]

[quote name='Old Man' timestamp='1310384802' post='5004718']
Quote: "Tablets of Huang Tian Shang Di” (皇天 上帝) and former eight Qing emperors".

Edward Harper Parker’s “Ancient China Simplified ( http://www.authorama...plified-13.html ) on Chapter XII - Ancestral Worship” wrote:
“Ancestral halls varied according to rank, the Emperor alone having seven shrines; vassal rulers five; and first-class ministers three; courtiers or second-class ministers had only two; that is to say, no one beyond the living subject’s grandfather was in these last cases worshipped at all. From this we may assume that the ordinary folk could not pretend to any shrine, unless perhaps the house- altar, which one may see still any day in the streets of Canton…

The King of Ts’u who died in 560 B.C. said on his death-bed: “I now take my place in the ancestral temple to receive sacrifices in the spring and autumn of each year.” …I will simply erect there a temple to my ancestors, thanking them for the success.”…

After the death in 210 B.C. of the First August Emperor, a discussion arose as to what honours should be paid to his temple shrine: it was explained that “for a thousand years without any change the rule has been seven shrines for the Son of Heaven, five for vassal princes, and three for ministers.” In the year 253, after the conquest of the miserable Chou Emperor’s limited territory, the same Ts’in conqueror “personally laid the matter before the Emperor(s) Above in the suburb sacrifice";–which means that he took over charge of the world as Vicar(s) of God(s). The Temple of Heaven (outside the Peking South Gate), occupied in 1900 by the British troops, is practically the “suburb sacrifice” place of ancient times…” Unquote


Did the Ming emperors have seven ancestor tablets apart of the main ancestral tablet; I was unable to find any documentation. But under the Qing dynasty, there were eight former emperor 皇帝 tablets and a main ancestral tablet 皇天 上帝 祖仙神位 which are still displayed in the Temple of Heaven.

The Manchu, who were not Han Chinese, had different customs than the Ming resulting “8” ancestor tablets instead of “7” in the Temple of Heaven?

Perhaps, when Manchu took over from Ming in 1644 AD and replaced the Ming’s ancestral tablets, they placed the Qing child emperor’s (順治皇帝) ancestral tablet on the throne and eight other 八旗; bāqí hereditary princes/kings’ ancestral tablets to show child emperor’s respect to the 八旗; bāqí princes/kings and hope to gain loyalty from them in return. It also signified the unity of the Manchu nation.

When Emperor Shunzhi (順治皇帝) at the age of six ascended to the throne of China, his reign was dominated by the regent prince Dorgon 多爾袞, who, because of his own political insecurity within the Manchu power structure, under his own control in the name of the emperor at the expense of other contending Manchu princes, many of whom eventually were demoted or imprisoned under one pretext or another. It took another seventeen years before the Qing’s final conquest of whole of China.

As the 八旗; bāqí military hereditary princes lost power either by demotion or imprisonment, their ancestral tablets were eventually replaced with former eight Qing emperors 皇帝 of China. Please do not hold against me on this assumption but if you have better explanations or find other documentations of why ‘8” tablets instead of ancient rule “7”, please share them with us.

In 1656 AD, Emperor Shunzhi (順治皇帝), built another Hall of Ancestral Worship (Fengxian Palace) to the east of the imperial palaces in the Forbidden City, where the emperors of Qing could also worshipped their ancestral memorial tablets.

If the tablets still exist in the Hall of Ancestral Worship (Fengxian Palace) and/or historians had documented them, the Fengxian Palace’s tablets can be compared with the Temple of Heaven’s ancestral tablets.


Below is the photo of the tablets of Huang Tian Shang Di” (皇天 上帝) and former eight emperors 皇帝 in Qing Dynasty:

http://www.panoramio.../photo/28291397

-北京天坛公园-皇天上帝

by cqjlpgdr08.08.08.

This photo is selected for Google Earth [?] - ID: 28291397

[Old Man]

I think the root meaning of El Shaddai is probably "all-powerful", as in Almighty. But still, El Shaddai is used as one of the names for God in the Old Testament.

Shaddai was a late Bronze Age Amorrite city on the banks of the Euphrate River, in northern Syria.

In the vision of Balaam recorded in the Book of Numbers 24:4 and 16, the vision comes from Shaddai along with El. In the fragmentary inscriptions at Deir Alla, though Shaddai is not, or not fully present, shaddayin appear, less figurations of Shaddai. These have been tentatively identified with the sedim of Deuteronomy 34:17 and Psalm 106:37-38, as Canaanite deities.

Shaddai was modified to the name of God meaning "the almighty" later in the Book of Job.

In early translations Shaddai was translated to "Almighty". The root word "shadad" (שדד) means "to overpower" or "to destroy" giving Shaddai the meaning of "destroyer" as one of the aspects of God.

Read about Shaddai in http://en.wikipedia....Judaism#Shaddai .

Other reference is in http://www.hebrewbab...fm?itemid=45299 :

EL SHADDAI is usually translated as GOD ALMIGHTY.

EL SHADDAI is a combination of two elements: El, meaning GOD (Alcalay, R. The Complete Hebrew English Dictionary. Jerusalem: Massada. 90) and Shaddai meaning ENOUGH. SHADDAI is a combination of two words:

SHE meaning WHO (Alcalay, R. The Complete Hebrew English Dictionary. Jerusalem: Massada. 2511)
and DAI meaning ENOUGH (Alcalay, R. The Complete Hebrew English Dictionary. Jerusalem: Massada. 427).

SHADDAI means ENOUGH, SELF-SUFFICIENT (Hagigah 12a).

SHADDAI may also be from the Akkadian sadu, meaning MOUNTAIN (Klein, Ernest. 1990. A Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language. Jerusalem: University of Haifa. 641),
or the Hebrew sadeh, meaning BREAST, the usual translation being PROVIDER, SUSTAINER (Klein, Ernest. 1990. A Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language. Jerusalem: University of Haifa. 641).

SHADDAI would then be translated respectively as MOUNTAIN or BREAST [PROVIDER, SUSTAINER]. Unquote

Conclusion: I totally agree with Feiyu there is no basis for comparison with the Hebrew’s “Shaddai” to Chinese “Shangdi”; both are as vague as ever.

[Old Man]

[quote name='JesusOneCreator' timestamp='1220573891' post='4950214']
I, myself, have come across the same question. It was when I discovered that the chinese character for the word "righteousness" consists of the word "lamb" + "me" (or "self") with "lamb" placed on top of "me". How the character for "me" is formed itself is amazing, if you remember Adam's two sons Cain and Abel. God only accepted Abel's offering, and not Cain's. So, Cain was jealous of Abel, so he stabbed Abel with a spear, hence killing him. The character "me" or "self" consists of the character for "hand" + "Spear".


Sorry, I cannot find Cain stabbing Abel with a spear in Genesis 4.

Genesis 4 states:
4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD
4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand
4:12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. … Unquote


Genesis 4:3-5 states God liked Abel’s dead animal offering better than Cain’s fruits and vegetables but God did not give any reason. Why, is it probable that the Abel's offering involved something with pain, blood and gore?

Genesis 4:8 states "Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him." Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice more than Cain's vegetables, Cain killed his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy. Where does the spear came from?

Genesis 4:11 – 12, 16-17 states "A fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth." As a punishment for killing Abel, God says Cain will be "a fugitive and a vagabond." Yet in just a few verses (4:16-17) Cain will settle down, marry, have a son, and build a city. This is not the activity one would expect from a fugitive and a vagabond.

Someone please explain what the population was in the so-called city and where does Cain’s wife came from?

[Old Man]

God created everything, including the moral law. The moral law is good both by definition and by an experiential argument - we know that obeying the moral law in general would be constructive and vice versa. So from the goodness of the created thing i.e. the moral law we can make an inference that the Creator is also good.

Daniel Florien on June 21 2009 in Christianity, God, Morality wrote:

I had a pretty terrible father growing up. He was a violent drunk who treated my mom badly and made me feel miserable.

I hated him.

Some people have worse fathers. But none of them can hold a candle the “Heavenly Father” in the Bible…

Read his blog on http://unreasonablef...-ever-imagined/