47 replies to this topic

[LYY]

The Kangxi emperor and the Jesuits argued that ancestor sacrifices were merely an expression of filial piety, and not religious worship. Confucius was a great sage and teacher and it was justified to revere him. After numerous meetings with Cardinal Mezzabarba, the Pope's envoy, the emperor ascertained that the Vatican was not going to budge, and wrote:
"How can these narrow-minded Western people understand the greater wisdom of the Chinese? After all, none of them can read Chinese books, and their speech and opinions are mostly quite laughable. I have read their message, and it turns out to be no different from the little heresies of the Buddhist monks and Daoist priests. There could be no greater degree of nonsensical talk. In future there will be no further need for Westerners to propagate their religion in China; it will be enough to ban them, lest greater trouble arise."

Original Chinese: 只说得西洋人等小人，如何言得中国人之大理？况西洋人等，无一人通汉书者，说言议论，令人可笑者多。今见来臣告示，竟与和尚道士异端小教相同。彼此乱言者，莫过如此。以后不必西洋人在中国行教，禁止可也，免得多事。

Kangxi allowed the Jesuits to go to the Vatican to present their case, but they too failed to change the Pope's mind. In 1716, Kangxi placed a ban on Christianity. In 1720, his successor the Yongzheng emperor intensified the ban, ejecting all missionaries, closing down all churches, and ordering Chinese Christians to renounce the religion on pain of death. The ban was never strictly enforced through campaigns of persecution, unlike in Japan during the 17th century. Some missionaries remained active in secret on the southern coast over the next hundred years or so. But the influence of the Jesuits at the Qing court was ended.

interesting ...

i think typical chinese may have no problem to pay respect to Jesus and God, just as they do the same to their ancestors, Buddha and all philosophical Gurus ... and all the ancient god and goddess. I call this messiness in unity ...

[Tong]

Why would Kangxi become a Christian? It didn't offer much from Taoism, Buddhism, Confuism other than myths and dogmas. I don't think he even wanan serve your God as a Emporer himself eheh.

[Hoa Phau]

kangxi wanted to become a christian. maybe he thinks that christianity is the path to western equipment. the jesuits give him anything mechanical, like the japanese daimyos, they baptise because of gunpowder, so did he?

maybe no. he's fit to be a christian. if i am he, i would rather be an orthodox instead.

[Rong Qin Wang]

The Manchu emperors were patrons of many religions, and different things to different communities. To the Han, they were Neo-Confucians. To the Tibetans and Mongols, they were Lamaist Buddhists and they also patronised the worship of the Mongol war god Mahakala. It was a way of holding a multi-ethnic empire together. I guess they didn't do anything to accommodate the Hui Muslims because Islam works too differently.

The Kangxi emperor's receptiveness to the Christianity of the Jesuits was probably also part of his interest in their culture, and wanting to be a patron to the Chinese Christians. When the Vatican started saying that ancestor worship and Christian belief are incompatible, and that Shangdi and God are not the same thing, he quickly lost interest. After all, he had to maintain the shrines of his imperial ancestors, and make the ritual sacrifices to Heaven, in order to protect his legitimacy.

No Chinese emperor could have become a Christian and remained emperor for long. The weight of tradition was just too great, and he would have lost the allegiance of his entire political and cultural elite.

I think there is a case for this thread being moved to the Chinese Philosophy, Religion and Mythology section. The religious beliefs of the Qing emperors is actually a very interesting topic.

Zunjing de Yun the Sage-King,

This topic is extremely interesting! When I read some accounts in historical novels regarding Emperor Kang Xi being on good terms with the Christians, I have always assumed those passages were fictional since I can never ever imagine a Chinese Emperor possibly accepting some Christian philosophies. I don’t mean to be anti-Christians. However, I have always associated Christians with the Western cultures. Since the Qing was so much against the Westerners, I just assumed they would have never paid any attention to a Western religion.

I surmise Emperor Kang Xi was much more tolerant of the Westerners since he always had a passion for learning Western technologies! Perhaps this was because he was cured of small pox by Western doctors? Also, Emperor Kang Xi was reportedly proclaimed as the Crown Prince under the suggestion of a Western official, who insisted on Kang Xi being the successor as he had survived an attack of small pox.

Hmm, I had no idea Manchu Emperors were patrons of various religions to different communities. Well, I have always considered Neo-Confucianism as more of a philosophy rather than an actual religion. Were there differences between regular Buddhists and Lamaist Buddhists? Did Lamaist Buddhists come from Tibet ? The Manchurians were undoubtedly assimilated by the Han cultures, and did promote many religions and cultures as a way of holding together a multi-ethnic empire. I must admit they have done a fairly good job.

I completely agree that Christian beliefs were too drastically different than normal Chinese traditions for any Chinese Emperor to think about converting! Even though he may have been much more benevolent and tolerant, Kang Xi was still a Chinese/Manchurian Emperor in every way!

However, despite being tolerant and in support of various cultures and religions, I believe the religion beliefs of Manchu Emperors never really changed! Were not they Buddhists and Confucians? I mean Confucianism reached its peak during the middle reigns and latter parts of Qing Dynasty. I only assumed Buddhist beliefs were common in Qing Dynasty since there was a rumor that Emperor Shun Zhi actually gave up his throne and became a monk after losing his beloved Concubine Dong-E. Regardless of the validity of this rumor, it certainly proved Emperor Shun Zhi had always been a patron of Buddhism. Also, almost all Huang Tai Hou after Xiao Zhuang were commonly being addressed as “Lao Fo Ye” aka “Old Buddha.” Based on the information I have provided, I don’t really think my premise sounds that ridiculous! Or I could be completely biased as I am totally incorrect? Anyway, I am really interested in this subject; therefore, I would really appreciate it if you can please further elaborate on some of the issues or please direct me to as many relevant sources as possible!

Xie Xie,

[Old Man]

No opium war, no unequal treaties, no bloody civil war, one can always dream with hindsight...
Could an Emperor as conscious of his human responsibilities as Kangxi embrace lightly a foreign faith, whatever its merits, and impose it to his subjects? The fact is that he chose not to.
And Yongzheng, who also had a very high sense of duties, did not hesitate to curb the propagation of Christianity because he thought it was threatening the stability of the Chinese Empire. Duty is the Emperor's (or Government's) highest form of charity.

Previously posted on 15 April 2012 - 07:47 AM


There wasn’t any opium war or even banning of opium trade, no unequal treaties nor major civil war as Taiwan was united back to China during the Kangxi reign. Anyway, civil war had nothing to do with the Christians unless there was a Chinese Christian uprising.

It was the church's intolerance and arrogance during the inquisition era over China that result the Kangxi’s decision to ban Christianity in China.

If and only if, Kangxi was a Christian, ask yourself this question: would you ban your religion and discriminate all your Christian subjects. The obvious answer will be NO.

Edited by Old Man, 29 May 2012 - 09:54 PM.

[Old Man]

Zunjing de Yun the Sage-King,


I surmise Emperor Kang Xi was much more tolerant of the Westerners since he always had a passion for learning Western technologies! Perhaps this was because he was cured of small pox by Western doctors? Also, Emperor Kang Xi was reportedly proclaimed as the Crown Prince under the suggestion of a Western official, who insisted on Kang Xi being the successor as he had survived an attack of small pox.

Previously posted as #34 on 15 April 2012 - 08:01 AM

Perhaps is not a good example, because it could also be speculation. Emperor Kangxi 康熙帝 (1654-1722) was never cured of smallpox by Western doctors neither Kangxi was proclaimed as the Crown Prince under the suggestion of a Western official. If you have concrete evidence, please present them. Actually, no one would imagine that a common Chinese country girl, who became palace attendant and close confidante of the Empress “Dowager” during Emperor Shunzhi’s reign, provided the cure of Kangxi’s smallpox.

According to Wikipedia, “The process of vaccination was discovered by Edward Jenner in 1796, who acted upon his observation that milkmaids who caught the cowpox virus did not catch smallpox. Prior to widespread vaccination, mortality rates in individuals with smallpox were high—up to 35% in some cases”. Unquote

If the smallpox vaccination was discovered 1796, it must be the Chinese method that cure the young prince, Kangxi, which palace attendant saw and learn from the village elders’ method of treating the small pox patients.

Further to Wikipedia, “ During the pre-vaccination history, “the first clear reference to smallpox inoculation was made by the Chinese author Wan Quan (1499–1582) in his Douzhen xinfa (痘疹心法) published in 1549. Inoculation for smallpox does not appear to have been widespread in China until the reign era of the Longqing Emperor (r. 1567–1572) during the Ming Dynasty. In China powdered smallpox scabs were blown up the noses of the healthy. The patients would then develop a mild case of the disease and from then on were immune to it. The technique did have a 0.5-2% mortality rate, but that was considerably less than the 20-30% mortality rate of the disease itself”. Unquote

[Old Man]

Previously posted as #35 on 17 April 2012 - 03:49 AM


file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/User/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image002.gifxng, on 28 March 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

Moreover, the Shang Ti is different from the Christian god.

Christian god have concepts such as one lifetime, salvation in believing jesus, creating human in x days etc which are different from Shang Ti. Unquote



You are right. Shangdi is different from the Christian god. See below article written by Jiang Rinto: Shangdi _ A View of Lingusitic Discussion.



Shangdi: A View of Linguistic Discussion
Written by Jiang Rinto
Thursday, 21 July 2011 13:56

Question: Shangdi means God, the Chinese ancestors had worshiped for thousands of years Shangdi. Is it true the conclusion that the ancient Chinese people actually have to know first monotheistic religions than others?


Culture-Tionghoa.Net | First of all, I have appealed to the penyimak my writing is to release the first of each religious fanaticism. Because this is just purely my discussion of linguistic terms, without intending to cause further dispute. In fact, through this paper I hope to attenuate the friction between the opinion that it believed that the ancient Chinese Shangdi nothing to do with the Christian Trinity and that nullify the earlier conviction.

Shangdi means it is a God, but only limited to Christians.

The spread of important religions in the world to China caused the words to God and other religious terms to look for a counterpart in Mandarin vocabulary. Each of these religions and then decide one word in Mandarin is considered appropriate to represent God, among them: Islam: Zhenzhu (真主), Catholic: Tianzhu (天主), Christian: Shangdi (上帝) - European missionaries, Christian: Shen (神) or the Zhu (主) - American missionaries

Zhenzhu and Tianzhu not problematic, because at that time is not an overused word, but another when Shangdi or Shen, by coincidence Shangdi is also a word to refer to several meanings in Mandarin in the old-fashioned.

To see clearly the difference, I describe the second point:

Shangdi in antiquity

Shangdi in ancient times is the word to refer to the sky. When ever read traditional Chinese belief that once I send it, then we should know that the sky was not symbolize God, not a spirit or entity. The concept of heaven (Tian) in the traditional Chinese belief is actually encompasses all of nature the sky. In ancient times, Chinese people only know the ancestors of two of nature, heaven and nature of human nature (earth). Spirit beings who died is believed to be heading to the natural sky. Thus, a tribute to the sky was not a tribute to God as conceived in other religions.

Shangdi in ancient times can also mean the previous emperor. Confucian emphasis on respect for the ancestors, the emperor who considered running a mandate from heaven to rule the world of nature as well as to respect the previous emperors as an ancestor. Perhaps many do not know if any emperor during the last 2000 years each has a name bio (temple), which is a unique name as a symbol of honor after they died.

Shangdi in Taoism


Taoism also adopted the term Shangdi to refer to Yu Huang Da Di (Jade Hong Tay Te), which is sometimes called the Yu Huang Shangdi. Yu Huang Shangdi is the Taoist Jade Emperor, supreme deity in the sky.
Xuan Tian Shang Ti is also known as Shangdi in Taoism. This is the Taoist god of war.

Shangdi as the Lord


Shangdi as the only true God is used exclusively by the missionaries during the spread of Christianity in China. After researching again, I just know that God is the term for new Shangdi is on the Ming (Century 14 ~ 17), are commonplace, yet the understanding to know when the reform took place Martin Luther (16th century).

From here, it is clear that God is Shangdi as other than the definition of Shangdi in ancient times. Still, there are many who confuse the two. This phenomenon can be my little analogy to the story below:

"A person reading the story Samkok, and found that in several battles, the soldiers used Qiang (枪). He gasped and thought that he found something very important, which may be missed by historians of the world. Then he took the conclusion that the Chinese have been using guns since 1800 years ago. Well, there was evidence Samkok stories and write them down outright if it means qiang gun these days. "

He was not wrong about the Qiang as a gun in this day and age, but he was mistaken about the age Samkok Qiang, who is actually pointing to the spear. Qiang vocabulary emerged as a new gun after gun found thousands of years later. So, in today's Qiang refers to two objects, but in ancient times only one object.

The same story can also be applied in problems of Shangdi and God (Trinity) is a previous discussion. Hopefully a simple review of history through this linguistic point of view can make the penyimak can more clearly distinguish between Shangdi, and Shangdi Shangdi. Do not get mixed up between Shangdi, and Shangdi Shangdi.

Rinto Jiang
Culture-Tionghoa.Net |

INTERNAL LINKS:
http://iccsg.wordpre...i-segi-linguis/

[Old Man]

I don't think embracing Christianity has any relation to the fact that it was foreign. Buddhism was foreign, and it was embraced by many emperors. The last emperor of Ming did in fact embrace Christianity temporarily.

Previously posted as #36 on 20 April 2012, 02:56 AM

Sorry, can you please explain what do you meant by “The last emperor of Ming did in fact embrace Christianity temporarily”?

That was not what I read from “Movers and Shakers of Knowledge in China during the Ming-Qing Period by Kent Deng”:

“[Johann Adam Schall] von Bell [(汤若望, 1592–1666)], a German-born Jesuit, came to China in 1622. He was the successor of Johannes Schreck by the invitation of the then Ming Premier Xu Guanqi (徐光启). In 1623 he took advantage of repairing a piano for Emperor Chongzhen (崇禎) to try, unsuccessfully, to persuade the emperor to convert to Christianity. His biography was included in Zhao Erxun. 1927. 清史稿”…

In terms of cultural influence measured by religious conversion, what the Jesuits achieved was marginal compared to the Buddhist monks since the first century A.D.

Many emperors converted to Buddhism but none to Christianity… Unquote.

[Old Man]

Previously posted as #37 on 23 April 2012 - 10:12 PM



file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/User/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image002.gifmohistManiac, on 21 January 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:
Video on [God in Ancient China]

[Uploaded by sadsack1957 on Oct 2, 2011
Chinese characters and how they relate to the Book of Genesis]


This Christian program says that Kangxi emperor was Christian… Unquote

This Christian program claiming Emperor Kangxi a converted Christian was a great disappointment and failure. Nothing in the program was new but the same old repeat & repeated articles which have been disproved or debunked, from time and time again.

Most of what he claimed in the program was answered in my reply to inca’s post in the “Chinese Origin in the Bible” thread: http://www.chinahist...e/page__st__135 . It was highly speculative to be real.

It is also highly speculative and untrue, just mentioning one sentence claiming Kangxi was a converted Christian whereby historian and Jesuit’s records shown Kangxi never convert to Christianity.

Let me give you an example.

Julia Gillard, the current Prime Minister of Australia respects all religions and cultures and when visiting a Chinese temple, she offered 3 joss sticks incense offering to the Chinese deities. This certainly does not mean, she believes in Taoism or Confucianism, but respects the culture and heritage of the Chinese.

She was born a Christian, brought up in a Christian society and greatly appreciates the Christian value and belief and always asked all immigrants to Australia to accept and respect and adopt Christian values in Australia.

When asked in a 2010 interview, this is what she said and quoted in wikipedia:

“Gillard was brought up in the Baptist tradition, but is not religious. In a 2010 interview when asked if she believed in God, Gillard stated: "No I don't ... I'm not a religious person ... [I'm] a great respecter of religious beliefs but they're not my beliefs." … Unquote

Likewise, Kangxi response to Pope Clement’s decree wrote in 1721:

”Reading this proclamation, I have concluded that the Westerners are petty indeed. It is impossible to reason with them because they do not understand larger issues as we understand them in China. There is not a single Westerner versed in Chinese works, and their remarks are often incredible and ridiculous. To judge from this proclamation, their religion is no different from other small, bigoted sects of Buddhism or Taoism. I have never seen a document which contains so much nonsense. From now on, Westerners should not be allowed to preach in China, to avoid further trouble.
From China in Transition, 1517­1911, Dan J. Li, trans. (New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1969), p. 22.” Unquote

So Kong Hee sounds like Kangxi and what’s so great about it? Nowadays, fathers still named their children like Jesus, Adam, Eve or Eva, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Tai Shan or Tai San and so on. What’s the fuss?

Why do some Christians so paranoid about the Chinese character of lamb and anything slightly related to it? Is lamb god’s hidden agenda for their religion? The messiah is lamb of god? I am not sure but Rev. Kong Hee may know better.

If the program is re-posted on “Chinese Origin in the Bible”, I will endeavour to answer some of the issues raised especially on the subject of Mount Tai and Chinese “border sacrifices”.

[Old Man]

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/User/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image002.gifmohistManiac, on 21 January 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:
Video on [God in Ancient China]

[Uploaded by sadsack1957 on Oct 2, 2011
Chinese characters and how they relate to the Book of Genesis]


This Christian program says that Kangxi emperor was Christian… Unquote




Comment on some other issues raised in the video.

1. “Sima Qian recorded that Huangdi actually built an altar in Tai Shan which is the mountain in Shandong province to worship Shangdi God, the one Supreme God”. Unquote

Did Huangdi built an altar in Taishan to worship Shangdi? Possibly ‘No’, but did he set up an altar to worship Shangdi and other gods, the answer would be ‘Yes’. Was Shangdi God, the Supreme God, it is most unlikely and according Edward T.C. Werner in Chapter IV of Myths and Legend of China:

“Worship of Shang Ti

"… Shang Ti was worshipped by the emperor and his family as their ancestor, or the head of the hierarchy of their ancestors. The people could not worship Shang Ti, for to do so would imply a familiarity or a claim of relationship punishable with death. The emperor worshipped his ancestors, the officials theirs, the people theirs. But, in the same way and sense that the people worshipped the emperor on earth, as the ‘father’ of the nation, namely, by adoration and p. 95 obeisance, so also could they in this way and this sense worship Shang Ti. An Englishman may take off his hat as the king passes in the street to his coronation without taking any part in the official service in Westminster Abbey. So the ‘worship’ of Shang Ti by the people was not done officially or with any special ceremonial or on fixed State occasions, as in the case of the worship of Shang Ti by the emperor. This, subject to a qualification to be mentioned later, is really all that is meant (or should be meant) when it is said that the Chinese worship Shang Ti.
As regards sacrifices to Shang Ti, these could be offered officially only by the emperor, as High Priest on earth, who was attended or assisted in the ceremonies by members of his own family or clan or the proper State officials (often, even in comparatively modern times, members of the imperial family or clan). In these official sacrifices, which formed part of the State worship, the people could not take part; nor did they at first offer sacrifices to Shang Ti in their own homes or elsewhere”… Unquote

According to legend, during the war with Chiyou, Huangdi returned to Taishan and set camp there. There he had a dream and immediately after waking up, he set up an altar to worship the Queen Mother of the West and went for another campaign with Chiyou. After the defeat of Chiyou and united other tribes, Huangdi returned to Taishan to offer sacrifices for its meritorious service and held a memorial ceremony for Yan Di.

Huangdi did built an altar and temple on a mountain top to worship his ancestor gods, Shangdi, but not on Taishan. Hence, when one read articles on Border Sacrifice moved from Taishan to the Tiantan (Temple of Heaven) in Beijing, it is utterly nonsense.

2. His other claims that “Sima Qian also recorded in his historical records a by a Han dynasty scholar: Well the Chinese “上帝者, 天之别名也, 神無二主”; Shangdi is another name for Tian. The spirits do not have two Lords_ Shi Ji (Vol 28, Book 6, Page 624)” but which version of his work did Kong Hee referring to?

I have glanced through 史記, 卷二十八 封禪書 第六 (Shiji Chapter 28 No. 6) but was unable to find the alleged quotation: “上帝者, 天之别名也, 神無二主”.

3. Kong Hee also claimed “Now, there is also a song found in the classic, in the collected statues of the Ming dynasty: “Of old in the beginning there was the great chaos, without form and dark. The five planets had begun to revolve, nor two lights to shine. In the midst of it there existed neither form nor sound. You, O Spiritual Sovereign, came forth in Your sovereignty, and first separate the impure from pure. You made heaven; You made earth; You made man. All things become alive with reproducing power”.

Which Ming’s collected statues, was he referring? The song was likely to be composed by Christian Missionary than Ming’s scholars. The above song which Kong Hee was referring was found in "Faith of our Fathers" (God in Ancient China) by Chan Kei Thong (p 35).

One will notice that the video’s title/heading is “God in Ancient China” and the song was from “God in Ancient China” Faith of our Fathers.

Both Chan Kei Thong and Kong Hee are Singaporeans which could tell us something else.

4. Apart of my comment in my last post, those who would like read more about Biblical Errancy’s "Genesis and Chinese characters", one can log on to:
http://etb-biblical-...reation chinese

by Edward T. Babinski - Biblical Errancy

Edited by Old Man, 29 May 2012 - 10:02 PM.

[Hooly]

The answer is simple, ... Christianity is a foreign religion because Jesus Christ was not Han Chinese (he was a Jew from the Galilee, which makes him a non-Hebrew Jew!), it's as simple as that. I'm Chinese and therefore can never be Christian. And before someone says it, yes, Buddhism is foreign as well, not of Chinese soil but the teachings of the Buddha are universal, beyond ethnicity as well as time and space.

Everything a Han Chinese needs philosophically and spiritually can be found in our native Chinese traditions starting with the Zhou Dynasty. Non-Han ideologies are merely pale shadows of what the Hundred Schools of Thought created.

All these so-called Chinese Christians are merely what the ancient Greeks called 'Medizers'.

Edited by Hooly, 31 May 2012 - 02:41 PM.

[mohistManiac]

The answer is simple, ... Christianity is a foreign religion because Jesus Christ was not Han Chinese (he was a Jew from the Galilee, which makes him a non-Hebrew Jew!), it's as simple as that. I'm Chinese and therefore can never be Christian. And before someone says it, yes, Buddhism is foreign as well, not of Chinese soil but the teachings of the Buddha are universal, beyond ethnicity as well as time and space.

Everything a Han Chinese needs philosophically and spiritually can be found in our native Chinese traditions starting with the Zhou Dynasty. Non-Han ideologies are merely pale shadows of what the Hundred Schools of Thought created.

All these so-called Chinese Christians are merely what the ancient Greeks called 'Medizers'.

Christianity has had a long history in China beginning with Nestorian Christianity in the sixth century. There were already Chinese Christians back then although most were believers in either Daoism or Buddhism.

[Hooly]

Christianity has had a long history in China beginning with Nestorian Christianity in the sixth century. There were already Chinese Christians back then although most were believers in either Daoism or Buddhism.

Were Nestorians Christians? Says who? My Catholic friends would call Nestorians 'heretics', Evangelical Protestants would consider them degenerate Easterners, Orthodox Christians would consider them 'schismatics' for breaking away from Constantinople, Mormons think all Christians have fallen away and Joseph Smith arrived to restore the 'True Church'. The fact that there were Nestorians so far east in China is because they were persecuted by their fellow Christians in the West. That does not make them Chinese in any sense. Thank God the T'ang Dynasty Proscription of foreign religions ended this first phase of the Christian invasion of China.

Edited by Hooly, 31 May 2012 - 03:54 PM.

[mohistManiac]

Were Nestorians Christians? Says who? My Catholic friends would call Nestorians 'heretics', Evangelical Protestants would consider them degenerate Easterners, Orthodox Christians would consider them 'schismatics' for breaking away from Constantinople, Mormons think all Christians have fallen away and Joseph Smith arrived to restore the 'True Church'. The fact that there were Nestorians so far east in China is because they were persecuted by their fellow Christians in the West. That does not make them Chinese in any sense. Thank God the T'ang Dynasty Proscription of foreign religions ended this first phase of the Christian invasion of China.

All this bashing of things which were part of China is a bit childish, sort of like Red Sox versus Yankees but it nonetheless raises an important point. It shows that whatever is most faithfully adopted becomes in essence the religion of the state. In western Europe it has traditionally been Christianity. In the Middle East it has traditionally been Islam. In the East it has traditionally been Buddhism. But anyways...a selective group which makes it into China means they are foreign at first only because they have arrived from a separate country. Later on they find the means to coexist with the majority and obey the laws of the state but continue to be able to exercise their religious rights.

[Hooly]

Later on they find the means to coexist with the majority and obey the laws of the state but continue to be able to exercise their religious rights.

You've never heard of the Thirty Year's War (Catholics vs. Protestants) ... or the Crusades (Christian vs. Muslim) or the Sunni vs. Shia conflict?? Or the Muslim destruction of Buddhist and Hindu India? The Taliban destroyed the Buddha statues in Bamiyan only a decade ago. This destruction occurs whenever a Semitic religion takes hold, Catholic Conquistadors in South America, Protestants in North America, Muslims in India and the Middle East, indeed Christians when they took over Europe during Constantine's 'conversion'.

No, I draw the line at Semitic religions, my tolerance ends with the spawn of Abraham. His children (Jews, Christians and Muslims), not to mention his grandchildren (Marxists, Socialists, Communists, Fascists, neo-conservatives, etc) have caused nothing but destruction and sorrow to the world. Look at the evidence.

Edited by Hooly, 31 May 2012 - 05:35 PM.