47 replies to this topic

[mohistManiac]

You've never heard of the Thirty Year's War (Catholics vs. Protestants) ... or the Crusades (Christian vs. Muslim) or the Sunni vs. Shia conflict?? Or the Muslim destruction of Buddhist and Hindu India? The Taliban destroyed the Buddha statues in Bamiyan only a decade ago. This destruction occurs whenever a Semitic religion takes hold, Catholic Conquistadors in South America, Protestants in North America, Muslims in India and the Middle East, indeed Christians when they took over Europe during Constantine's 'conversion'.

No, I draw the line at Semitic religions, my tolerance ends with the spawn of Abraham. His children (Jews, Christians and Muslims), not to mention his grandchildren (Marxists, Socialists, Communists, Fascists, neo-conservatives, etc) have caused nothing but destruction and sorrow to the world. Look at the evidence.

So how do things you bring up relate to what I've said about Nestorian Christianity?

[f0ma]

I fear we're drifting slightly from the point here. Generally, I don't think nationality/ethnicity (not culture/tradition) hinders belief. One can be any nationality/ethnicity and have any belief. In Kangxi's case - from what I can gather - he didn't believe, for reasons that have already been stated. But, perhaps if Christianity had been allowed to flourish, instead of being suppressed, it could have become a more integral part of Chinese society, perhaps allowing a later Emperor to adopt it - kind of like what Mohist was saying. I don't claim to be very knowledgeable on this subject, but I'm just trying to drag us a bit back on topic - religious criticism could lead to dangerous waters.

Edited by f0ma, 01 June 2012 - 10:20 AM.

[Hooly]

So how do things you bring up relate to what I've said about Nestorian Christianity?

Because if Nestorian Christianity were allowed to flourish in China (and thank God it wasn't!!), then it would have meant the end of Chinese civilization as we know it. Just as Western Civilization was basically ended when Constantine adopted Christianity, and despite the heroic efforts of Julian the Apostate, it allowed a fanatic like Theodosius I to make it the state religion of Rome, banning the great civilizations of pagan Greece and Rome, causing the Dark Ages. Islam has basically wiped out the civilizations of Egypt and Mesoptamia, as it attempted to do against Hindu India, as the Catholic Conquistodores did to the Inca, Aztec and Maya.

Christians infiltrated once with the Nestorians, and they failed. They tried again during the reign of the latter Ming and Qing under the Kangshi reign, and they failed again. Next came the Taipings with their genocidal war against the Han, fortunately they were beaten with the loss of millions of lives. And we see today, again the Christians seek to infiltrate, undermine and destroy Chinese civilization. Do you see how relentless these Semitic religions are? whether Crusaders, Taipings, Jesuits, Al Qaeda, Taliban, Nestorian, etc....

Bottomline: these Semitic religions are DANGEROUS.

Edited by Hooly, 04 June 2012 - 01:46 PM.

[mohistManiac]

Because if Nestorian Christianity were allowed to flourish in China (and thank God it wasn't!!), then it would have meant the end of Chinese civilization as we know it. Just as Western Civilization was basically ended when Constantine adopted Christianity, and despite the heroic efforts of Julian the Apostate, it allowed a fanatic like Theodosius I to make it the state religion of Rome, banning the great civilizations of pagan Greece and Rome, causing the Dark Ages. Islam has basically wiped out the civilizations of Egypt and Mesoptamia, as it attempted to do against Hindu India, as the Catholic Conquistodores did to the Inca, Aztec and Maya.

Christians infiltrated once with the Nestorians, and they failed. They tried again during the reign of the latter Ming and Qing under the Kangshi reign, and they failed again. Next came the Taipings with their genocidal war against the Han, fortunately they were beaten with the loss of millions of lives. And we see today, again the Christians seek to infiltrate, undermine and destroy Chinese civilization. Do you see how relentless these Semitic religions are? whether Crusaders, Taipings, Jesuits, Al Qaeda, Taliban, Nestorian, etc....

Bottomline: these Semitic religions are DANGEROUS.

So we still tend to think Nestorian Christianity as a form of Christianity. That's my original point that Christianity ventured into China since early times. However since it's bubble was burst by some intolerant figures in early Chinese history obviously every time Christianity enters China what people won't realize is it has to try that much harder to account for its lowly amount of followers and ultimately on some level it gets bad pr because of this. Christianity possibly won't flourish in China for a great long time but eventually speaking it will become native to a whole bunch of people just as Buddhism and Islam had.

[Hooly]

So we still tend to think Nestorian Christianity as a form of Christianity. That's my original point that Christianity ventured into China since early times. However since it's bubble was burst by some intolerant figures in early Chinese history obviously every time Christianity enters China what people won't realize is it has to try that much harder to account for its lowly amount of followers and ultimately on some level it gets bad pr because of this. Christianity possibly won't flourish in China for a great long time but eventually speaking it will become native to a whole bunch of people just as Buddhism and Islam had.

There's only room for one foreign religion, namely Buddhism ... the others should be suppressed and/or expelled.

You're an optimist mohistManic, ... especially it seems when it comes to these Semitic religions of Christianity and Islam. Look at the current troubles in Europe with the Muslims, ... what do you get? Londonistan, Anders Breivik reactions, the call for Sharia Law, the riots in the French suburbs by Muslim youth, etc, etc.

I don't want to see this in China.

[mohistManiac]

There's only room for one foreign religion, namely Buddhism ... the others should be suppressed and/or expelled.

You're an optimist mohistManic, ... especially it seems when it comes to these Semitic religions of Christianity and Islam. Look at the current troubles in Europe with the Muslims, ... what do you get? Londonistan, Anders Breivik reactions, the call for Sharia Law, the riots in the French suburbs by Muslim youth, etc, etc.

I don't want to see this in China.

No more an optimist than when the Zhou settled upon the lands of central China and claimed sovereignty in the name of heaven's mandate. The fact that dissimilar religions can exist within a territory shows the flexibility of its peoples to balance each other and provide security in this slightly uncertain mode of existence. Is that not how the world works?

[Hooly]

No more an optimist than when the Zhou settled upon the lands of central China and claimed sovereignty in the name of heaven's mandate. The fact that dissimilar religions can exist within a territory shows the flexibility of its peoples to balance each other and provide security in this slightly uncertain mode of existence. Is that not how the world works?

The world perhaps ... but not China. That is why China's civilization and people have survived and maintained an unbroken link from the beginnings of our civilization. Where Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece and Rome are essentially and fundamentally gone, China endures. Why? Because only we have maintained our language, religion, writing, genetic integrity, i.e. we speak, revere, write and look like our ancestors. Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece and Rome (and perhaps India) can't say the same thing unfortunately.

Why add disruptive elements that will break our continuity ... whether Christianity, Marxism, Islam, etc?? Let the rest of the world dabble with new fangled ideologies, cults and religions, ... China is eternal.

[mohistManiac]

The world perhaps ... but not China. That is why China's civilization and people have survived and maintained an unbroken link from the beginnings of our civilization. Where Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece and Rome are essentially and fundamentally gone, China endures. Why? Because only we have maintained our language, religion, writing, genetic integrity, i.e. we speak, revere, write and look like our ancestors. Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece and Rome (and perhaps India) can't say the same thing unfortunately.

Why add disruptive elements that will break our continuity ... whether Christianity, Marxism, Islam, etc?? Let the rest of the world dabble with new fangled ideologies, cults and religions, ... China is eternal.

So China is not part of the world? because it is eternal? What a hogwash. The reason why Chinese civilization has survived is because it is "Chinese" something which can reinvent itself and continue to be called Chinese so long as somebody reinvents it every new dynasty which comes along.

[Hooly]

So China is not part of the world? because it is eternal? What a hogwash. The reason why Chinese civilization has survived is because it is "Chinese" something which can reinvent itself and continue to be called Chinese so long as somebody reinvents it every new dynasty which comes along.

The world's cultures are in danger, besieged by an onslaught of multiculturalism ... it's destroying Europe (with Muslim / Third World immigration), it's diluting America with Hispanics, and now China, with strange non-Han religions. Is it hogwash to want to protect one's people and 'This Culture of Ours' ??

[mohistManiac]

The world's cultures are in danger, besieged by an onslaught of multiculturalism ... it's destroying Europe (with Muslim / Third World immigration), it's diluting America with Hispanics, and now China, with strange non-Han religions. Is it hogwash to want to protect one's people and 'This Culture of Ours' ??

Hogwash. What are you doing communicating with me in English for? So what do you want, first century China? Be a loyalist? Not have technology? The world's cultures will only be in danger in a state which proposes to wipe out ethnic differentiation for the sake of saying what's the difference? Like a China whose people are keen to believe they are just one family.

[Hooly]

Hogwash. What are you doing communicating with me in English for? So what do you want, first century China? Be a loyalist? Not have technology? The world's cultures will only be in danger in a state which proposes to wipe out ethnic differentiation for the sake of saying what's the difference? Like a China whose people are keen to believe they are just one family.

But China is one big family ... we traditionally called ourselves 'The One Hundred Surnames' ... all descended from the Yellow Emperor.

You can't change genetics, you can't change human nature ... birds of a feather and all that.

And why shouldn't I communicate in English?, it's a great language of a great people ... you misconstrue love of one's people and culture with hatred of others, the difference between patriotism and xenophobia. Shouldn't the English love England (and not want a Muslim takeover) and the Chinese love China (and not want a Christian takeover) ?? It's a simple question, with a yes or no answer.

Edited by Hooly, 06 June 2012 - 02:57 PM.

[mohistManiac]

But China is one big family ... we traditionally called ourselves 'The One Hundred Surnames' ... all descended from the Yellow Emperor.

You can't change genetics, you can't change human nature ... birds of a feather and all that.

And why shouldn't I communicate in English?, it's a great language of a great people ... you misconstrue love of one's people and culture with hatred of others, the difference between patriotism and xenophobia. Shouldn't the English love England (and not want a Muslim takeover) and the Chinese love China (and not want a Christian takeover) ?? It's a simple question, with a yes or no answer.

It's an empty promise in the age of globalization which appeared in world history since the time all continents became occupied by western powers. You can change genetics you can even change your sex if you want these days.

No, it is you who gives excuses about his own shortcomings. You should not communicate in English because if you truly want to stop liberal immigration policies then you must first prevent people from wanting to learn anything different beyond what they already know and have available within their own republics, nations, borders, etc. Let alone learning something as universal as English. But obviously you do like the English language and have associated it with a great people. In fact you might want to live in English speaking societies but pray tell why the English, for one example, should nilly willy just let anyone go to school and learn proficiency of their awesome language in their land? Why should the English let you practice shaving on their whiskers? Oh can it be because they are a multicultural society?

For China to preserve its true integrity it must absolutely allow its tradition to continue. Mandate of heaven. If that means allowing previous barbarians to come in and try ruling then so be it. If that means allowing some peoples to go towards Christianity then so be it. If those Christians can do incredible work for China, so be it. I am reminded of many public figures in China whose allegiance to their very different ethnic family members allow for variable feedback to the one party system whose success would not have been even slightly possible without them.

Edited by mohistManiac, 06 June 2012 - 05:36 PM.

[Hooly]

For China to preserve its true integrity it must absolutely allow its tradition to continue. Mandate of heaven. If that means allowing previous barbarians to come in and try ruling then so be it. If that means allowing some peoples to go towards Christianity then so be it. If those Christians can do incredible work for China, so be it. I am reminded of many public figures in China whose allegiance to their very different ethnic family members allow for variable feedback to the one party system whose success would not have been even slightly possible without them.

A liberal viewpoint ... it's already destroying the European Union, this denial of human nature for the purpose of a better tomorrow and an end to war.

And no, absolutely NOT ... Christians CAN'T do incredible work for China, they seek to infiltrate, undermine and destroy China, ... as they infiltrated, undermined and destroyed Rome (despite the heroic efforts of Julian the Apostate), Egypt, the Aztec, Maya and Incan civilizations ... as they attempted to do in Japan (thank God for the Tokugawas) and China in years past (Nestorians, Jesuits, Taipings, etc). Christians are so like their Muslim cousins, but at least the Muslims are honest about their intentions and motives, at least Al Qaeda, Islamic Jihad, the Taliban are open about it, ... they want to impose Sharia Law on Western civilization and reestablish the Caliphate, I hope Western Civilization, including English civilization survives because I like it, just as I love Chinese civilization and don't want to see it infiltrated, undermined and destroyed like Rome under Constantine and Theodosius I.

Or do you deny history?

[mohistManiac]

A liberal viewpoint ... it's already destroying the European Union, this denial of human nature for the purpose of a better tomorrow and an end to war.

And no, absolutely NOT ... Christians CAN'T do incredible work for China, they seek to infiltrate, undermine and destroy China, ... as they infiltrated, undermined and destroyed Rome (despite the heroic efforts of Julian the Apostate), Egypt, the Aztec, Maya and Incan civilizations ... as they attempted to do in Japan (thank God for the Tokugawas) and China in years past (Nestorians, Jesuits, Taipings, etc). Christians are so like their Muslim cousins, but at least the Muslims are honest about their intentions and motives, at least Al Qaeda, Islamic Jihad, the Taliban are open about it, ... they want to impose Sharia Law on Western civilization and reestablish the Caliphate, I hope Western Civilization, including English civilization survives because I like it, just as I love Chinese civilization and don't want to see it infiltrated, undermined and destroyed like Rome under Constantine and Theodosius I.

Or do you deny history?

A liberal viewpoint ... it's already destroying the European Union, this denial of human nature for the purpose of a better tomorrow and an end to war.

And no, absolutely NOT ... Christians CAN'T do incredible work for China, they seek to infiltrate, undermine and destroy China, ... as they infiltrated, undermined and destroyed Rome (despite the heroic efforts of Julian the Apostate), Egypt, the Aztec, Maya and Incan civilizations ... as they attempted to do in Japan (thank God for the Tokugawas) and China in years past (Nestorians, Jesuits, Taipings, etc). Christians are so like their Muslim cousins, but at least the Muslims are honest about their intentions and motives, at least Al Qaeda, Islamic Jihad, the Taliban are open about it, ... they want to impose Sharia Law on Western civilization and reestablish the Caliphate, I hope Western Civilization, including English civilization survives because I like it, just as I love Chinese civilization and don't want to see it infiltrated, undermined and destroyed like Rome under Constantine and Theodosius I.

Or do you deny history?

Mandate of heaven is a tradition of the Chinese state. The natural course of change for China has been to allow those whom were at the time better suited to rule it, to rule it. Han Xianbei Mongol Manchu, conservative, liberal, communist, capitalist have all been different things but could be united within the Chinese framework.

Religion doesn't carry with it the promise of working better but neither does religion carry with it seeds of destruction. We can ask how does religion actually destroy the state entities holding membership in the EU? We can give all sorts of excuses to scapegoat a certain segment of the population and never arrive at the true nature of the problem. The problem was one of interconnectedness and the downfall of their currency, not their most popular religions.

A theory of destruction caused by widespread religious programs where you attempt to posit some more successful trait of domination within a particular religion lacks insight with regards to multicultural controls as I have stated earlier. As a result, all it shows is the possibility of inherent aggressive behavior of some individual state and not necessarily the wills of its singular religion and ideology. If the state was equally divided amongst followers of a multitude of types as China has traditionally been then many controls will be set in place thereby reducing its desire and capacity to unleash havoc onto the rest of the world.

[Hooly]

Mandate of heaven is a tradition of the Chinese state. The natural course of change for China has been to allow those whom were at the time better suited to rule it, to rule it. Han Xianbei Mongol Manchu, conservative, liberal, communist, capitalist have all been different things but could be united within the Chinese framework.

Religion doesn't carry with it the promise of working better but neither does religion carry with it seeds of destruction. We can ask how does religion actually destroy the state entities holding membership in the EU? We can give all sorts of excuses to scapegoat a certain segment of the population and never arrive at the true nature of the problem. The problem was one of interconnectedness and the downfall of their currency, not their most popular religions.

A theory of destruction caused by widespread religious programs where you attempt to posit some more successful trait of domination within a particular religion lacks insight with regards to multicultural controls as I have stated earlier. As a result, all it shows is the possibility of inherent aggressive behavior of some individual state and not necessarily the wills of its singular religion and ideology. If the state was equally divided amongst followers of a multitude of types as China has traditionally been then many controls will be set in place thereby reducing its desire and capacity to unleash havoc onto the rest of the world.

Your interpretation of the Mandate of Heaven is too broad and too liberal. The Mandate of Heaven was invented by the Zhou to justify their conquest of the Shang. The founding fathers of the Zhou would never countenance Mongols and Manchus (let alone Christians and Muslims and Marxists) holding Heaven's Mandate. Confucius himself praised one of our greatest leaders, Duke Huan of Qi (齊桓公) for repelling barbarians (尊王攘夷). Heaven (天) is the God of the Zhou and therefore of the Han Chinese alone (Jews have YHWH, Christians have Jesus and Muslims have Allah).

And I see you're a multiculturalist par excellence. And allowing a China "equally divided amongst followers of a multitude of types" is a recipe for disaster, it would lead to the shattering of unity on so many fronts as these mutually incompatible groups stay loyal to their own type and group. This is why Buddhism is okay in my opinion, the religion largely died out in India and has become more East Asian than Indian. This is not true Christians, Communists, Muslims, capitalists, liberals, these groups maintain more loyalty to outside forces than they do for China and Chinese civilization. For example, the neo-cons in America have hijacked American foreign policy, especially in the last Administration. What was the result of this cabal taking control of a Presidency? ... two wars, record high deficits, decline of influence, economic disaster. And for what purpose do these neo-cons plunge America into all this chaos?? For Zionist ideology and the State of Israel of course!! I suppose I can't blame them, they must put their loyalty towards their ethno-religious group ahead of the country of their birth and homeland, ... but still, come on. I don't want to see the same in China, that's all. Chinese Catholics more loyal to the Vatican than to China. Chinese Muslims bowing towards Mecca instead of Mount Tai. Chinese Communists visiting the house of Karl Marx instead of the Temple of Confucius in Shantung.

Wouldn't you agree ??