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Tao Qian


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#16 MengTzu

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Posted 07 January 2005 - 03:17 AM

(because Celestial Master Daoism, which Tao's family supposedly believed in, contained Mohist elements)

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This is very fascinating. What Mohist elements does Celestial Master Daoism contain?

#17 Yun

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Posted 07 January 2005 - 06:43 AM

This is the relevant passage from the essay:

简言之, 墨家学派在先秦为显学, 其组织比较严密, 思想主张亦为下层民众所偏爱。所以虽历经秦人坑火和汉代独尊儒术的打击, 一度在学术领域湮没无闻, 但它的很多社会思想, 却在秦汉以后逐渐形成的原始道教教义中保存下来并凝结在道教早期经典《太平经》中。陶渊明受墨派思想影响的主要途径, 分析起来, 当与其祖传的宗教信仰有关。如陈寅恪先生所指出, 陶氏家族为溪人之后, 世传天师道信仰(参见《金明馆丛稿初编·〈魏书司马睿传〉江东民族条释证及推论》),其家族中, 不乏持律甚严的道教徒。对这一家族的某些成员而言, 祖传的信仰虽并不明确表现为入道的形式, 但教义中蕴含的哲学理论却会在其思想行为方式上打下极深的印记。象渊明曾祖陶侃和渊明本人, 就属于后一种情况。(关于天师道教义中保存的墨家思想及陶侃与陶渊明在各方面受墨派影响的诸多表现等问题, 当作专文阐述, 此不赘言)


Translation: To put it simply, Mohism was an important school of thought in the Pre-Qin period, with a more structured form of organisation for its members and an exceptional appeal to the commoners. Because of this, even though it was persecuted by the Qin and marginalised by the primacy of Confucianism in the Han, and vanished out of sight temporarily, much of its teaching on social justice was preserved in the Daoist religion that took shape after the Qin and Han, in particular in the early Daoist classic "Taiping Jing". If we analyse the main source of Tao Yuanming's influence by Mohist thought, it should be the tradtional religious beliefs of his clan. Chen Yinke has pointed out that the Tao clan were descended from Xi aborigines, and had followed Celestial Master Daoism for generations. There was no lack of serious practicing Daoists in Tao Yuanming's family. For some members of the family (like Tao Yuanming), the ancestral religion may not have led them to identify themselves as Daoists, but the philosophical essence of the religion would still have made a deep impression on their worldview and behaviour. This was the case for Yuanming's great-grandfather Tao Kan and Yuanming himself. (With regard to the Mohist influences preserved in Celestial Master Daoism and the various manifestations of Mohist influence in the actions of Tao Kan and Tao Yuanming, this will be examined in a separate essay and not elaborated on here.)
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#18 Guest_rigdaddy_*

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Posted 07 January 2005 - 09:56 AM

wow, this is really fascinating me - and has backed up one of my original observations when i first looked at this poem. On the one hand his desire to escape the "dusty net" would logically show naturalistic ideals etc. however, this is if you see "dusty net" to be metaphorical of the urban life he was retreating from. On the other hand, it could be metaphorical for governmental corruption. Thus meaning he was retreating fomr an amoral government, meaning he also had Confucian views as well. The essays you gave links to were fascinating too, i think Cheng Yinke really answered my query in his essay, saying Tao was not a true Taoist, but merely outwardly Confucian and inwardly taoist, which makes perfect sense when you read much of poetry. I have also been looking into whether he was a poet of nature, retreat or individualism, as he "[came] back again to what is natural", yet he was retreating from a corrupt government (or rather, retreating from a life he did not enjoy in favour of one he did), yet once home he spent much of his time drinking wine and dinging with his neighbours (admittedly he did later became entangled in severe poverty, but this did not stop him from enjoying his wine).
Yuanming is a troublesome character to study as, depending one whose translation you choose to read, in my case i have prefer to use either Arthur Waley's or James Hightower's), you can have differeing interpretations on this intiguing figure. unfortuantely my Chinese is very basic at the moment i cannot read his poems in their original language, which I am sure would throw up yet more interpretations.




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