75 replies to this topic

[naruwan]

月氏 (or 月支) YueZhi, claimed by some non-Chinese sources to be the Jats, later known as Kushan (貴霜, one of the 5 YueZhi tribes) is said to be of Tocharian origin. By 1st century BCE, some of the YueZhi tribes were driving off by the 匈奴 Huns, to the Oxu river region. Which is in the general area referred by Greek Sources as Batria.

Now here is my question.

I have been taught since a young children that 月氏 is actually not pronounced as "YueZhi" but rather "RouZhi". As the first character is supposed to be the varient form of the character 肉. Those who knows Chinese Radicals will know, many words relating to the body, has a radical that looks closely similar to 月, but it is acutally written with 冫 in the middle instead of 二. For example, 脈 Palse, 臉 Face, 膽 Gul-Bladder, 肝 Liver, 肺 Lungs, 胃 Stomach, 腎 Kidneys.... the list goes on.

The character 肉, in this case 月, is pronounced as "Ba" in Traditional Chinese languages.

Therefore, 月氏 would sound like "BaChi" during Han dynasty. In YueZhi's case, it would sound like "GuaChi" in Han dynasty.

Now, is it just coinsident that "BahChi" sounds just like Bactria?

So here comes my question. Is Bactria so named by the Greeks because of 月氏? (unlikely since 月氏 only flead to Onux after Greeks has already arrived there.) Or is 月氏 so named because they were related to Batria?

Another possibility is that 月氏 is part of Tocharians. BaChi also sounds silimar to Tocha. Perhaps Tocharians is so named because they are from Bactria. When the Huns drove the 月氏 out, they fled towards where their ancestors were from?

Or all the names are simply unrelated?

In ancient times, travel between Bactria and Tarim is a popular route. DNA studies proved all Far East Asian originated from Iran. So, what's everyone's thoughts?

[naruwan]

Just to add, another related name of Batrians is the Tajik, which is now an ethenicity in Central Asian. Even in East Turkistan (XinJiang). Referred by present day Chinese as 塔吉克族 Tǎjíkè. Below is what wikipedia said about Tajik:

The word did not exist before the Turkic conquest of Central Asia. Even Persians in Iran who live in the Turkish-speaking parts of the country call themselvs "Tajik". The population of Tibet calls all Persians Tajik. Therefore, Tajik can be considered a synonym for Persian . It may have originated from Ta-Hia, the chinese name for ancient Bactria.

Jat is more associated with Scythians.

Sogdiana (粟特人) were also just around Bactria. These people actually moved all the way from Iran to ShanDong and established 渤海國 (Balhae) during Sui and Tang dynasty.

[Yun]

These people actually moved all the way from Iran to ShanDong and established 渤海國 (Balhae) during Sui and Tang dynasty.

Are you sure? I've always read that Balhae/Bohai was established in the Tang by Mohe/Malgals along with refugees from Koguryo. And it was not in Shandong but in northeast China.

[naruwan]

Are you sure? I've always read that Balhae/Bohai was established in the Tang by Mohe/Malgals along with refugees from Koguryo. And it was not in Shandong but in northeast China.

Sogdiana (粟特人)

粟末 in Traditional Han language (So Boat)

Wiki

渤海國（669年—926年），位於朝鮮半島北部及現時中國東北地區東部、舊日沿海州舊地。由粟末靺鞨酋長大祚榮所建立，初名「振國 (震國)」，其民族主體為粟末靺鞨... 渤海國是一個具有二重性的政權，它既是粟末靺鞨聯合高句麗等遺民建立的一個王國政權，同時又是唐朝管轄下的一個羈縻州。

Bohai (669 - 926) located in the northern part of Corean penisula and Northeastern part of China. Formed by SoBoatMoJie's chef DaZhouRon.....


隋書 SuiShu - 東夷 DonYi

靺鞨
　　靺鞨，在高麗之北，邑落俱有酋長，不相總一。凡有七種：其一號粟末部

MoJie, North of Koguryo, every village has a leader, they don't adhear to one rule. There are a total 7 tribes, one of them is call So Boat.

舊唐書 JioTangShu - 北狄 BeiDi

渤海靺鞨
　　渤海靺鞨大祚榮者，本高麗別種也。高麗既滅，祚榮率家屬徙居營州。

BoHai MoJie's first king, DaZhouRon was originally a minority in Koguryo. After Koguryo as destroyed, he lead his family and moved to 營州 (遼寧)


新唐書 SinTangShu - 北狄 BeiDi

渤海，本粟末靺鞨附高麗者，姓大氏。高麗滅，率眾保挹婁之東牟山，地直營州東二千里，南比新羅，以泥河為境，東窮海，西契丹。築城郭以居，高麗逋殘稍歸之。

BoHai, Originally from those SoBoat MoJie that was under Koguryo's command. After Koguryo ended, leadered let his followers to DongMouShan (吉林).....

Anyway, I read somewhere that at there height, they controled parts of 山東 Shan Dong. But you are right, they didn't start at Shan Dong, but they weren't too far from it either.

[qrasy]

Therefore, 月氏 would sound like "BaChi" during Han dynasty. In YueZhi's case, it would sound like "GuaChi" in Han dynasty.
Now, is it just coinsident that "BahChi" sounds just like Bactria?

I think the word "baʔ" is special to Min, I can't find similar reading of 肉 to it in Hakka or Cantonese (Hakka nyuk6, Cantonese yuk6); 肉 is also never read similar to it in any Sino-Xenic. (Sino-Korean yuk,yu; Sino-Japanese niku, juu; Sino-Vietnamese nhục)
月氏 does have a special reading, "月" is definitely 肉. 氏->(?)支.

Another possibility is that 月氏 is part of Tocharians. BaChi also sounds silimar to Tocha. Perhaps Tocharians is so named because they are from Bactria. When the Huns drove the 月氏 out, they fled towards where their ancestors were from?

Isn't the 'ch' in Tocharia pronounced like 'kh'? How are they similar?

Sogdiana (粟特人)
粟末 in Traditional Han language (So Boat)

Well, I don't think 粟末 and 粟特 are related; just by the first syllable. 粟末 is just part of 靺鞨.

Note that the voiced initials in Hokkien seem just denasalization from nasals, the real voiced initials as in Wu already went voiceless.

Anyway, I read somewhere that at there height, they controled parts of 山東 Shan Dong. But you are right, they didn't start at Shan Dong, but they weren't too far from it either.

Isn't 渤海 a name of a sea? And their country just started near the sea? (around Shandong, Hebei, Tianjin, Liaoning)? Or the names are just coincident?

Edited by qrasy, 12 December 2005 - 06:40 AM.

[DuncanHead]

So here comes my question. Is Bactria so named by the Greeks because of 月氏? (unlikely since 月氏 only flead to Onux after Greeks has already arrived there.) Or is 月氏 so named because they were related to Batria?

Bactria is so called by the Greeks simply as their pronunciation of Baktrish, which was its name in the Achaemenid period - it's on 6th-century BC Persian monuments. It may derive from bakhtar, "the west."

As for Tajik, the most common etymology is that it derives not from Bactria but from Tayy. The Tayy were an Arab tribe known to the Persians in the Sasanian period, and their tribal name became a synonym first for Arabs, and then after the Arab-Islamic conquest of Iran, for Muslims; ending up as Tajik meaning Muslim east Iranians instead of Muslim Arabs.

[Bao Pu]

Hi Naruwan

The character 肉, in this case 月, is pronounced as "Ba" in Traditional Chinese languages.

Therefore, 月氏 would sound like "BaChi" during Han dynasty. In YueZhi's case, it would sound like "GuaChi" in Han dynasty.

Now, is it just coinsident that "BahChi" sounds just like Bactria?

-- From the Western Zhou through the Sui Dynasties, both Rou and Yue had the initial "N". The rest may possibly resemble "actria" but ...

that's all I can contribute.

[Yun]

Sogdiana (粟特人)

粟末 in Traditional Han language (So Boat)

Considering that the Mohe 靺鞨 (Malgal in Korean) are usually identified as the ancestors of the Jurchen and Manchus, it's quite impossible for them to have had anything to do with the Sogdians. It's just a coincidental similarity in names between Sute and Sumo.

Isn't 渤海 a name of a sea? And their country just started near the sea? (around Shandong, Hebei, Tianjin, Liaoning)? Or the names are just coincident?

Bohai is indeed the name of that sea. The Bohai only started calling themselves as such after the Tang court enfeoffed their ruler as the Prince of Bohai. Before that, they referred to themselves as Mohe or as the kingdom of Zhen 振國 (震國).

Our thread on Bohai: http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=2535

As for Tajik, the most common etymology is that it derives not from Bactria but from Tayy. The Tayy were an Arab tribe known to the Persians in the Sasanian period, and their tribal name became a synonym first for Arabs, and then after the Arab-Islamic conquest of Iran, for Muslims; ending up as Tajik meaning Muslim east Iranians instead of Muslim Arabs.

I've heard on this forum that Tayy is also the origin of the Tang name for the Arabs, Dashi.

[naruwan]

Bactria is so called by the Greeks simply as their pronunciation of Baktrish, which was its name in the Achaemenid period - it's on 6th-century BC Persian monuments. It may derive from bakhtar, "the west."

As for Tajik, the most common etymology is that it derives not from Bactria but from Tayy. The Tayy were an Arab tribe known to the Persians in the Sasanian period, and their tribal name became a synonym first for Arabs, and then after the Arab-Islamic conquest of Iran, for Muslims; ending up as Tajik meaning Muslim east Iranians instead of Muslim Arabs.

Great info!! thank you, non-Chinese explainations is one thing I was hoping to get out of this.

[warlordgeneral]

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Edited by warlordgeneral, 31 March 2013 - 06:57 AM.

[naruwan]

Considering that the Mohe 靺鞨 (Malgal in Korean) are usually identified as the ancestors of the Jurchen and Manchus, it's quite impossible for them to have had anything to do with the Sogdians. It's just a coincidental similarity in names between Sute and Sumo.
Bohai is indeed the name of that sea. The Bohai only started calling themselves as such after the Tang court enfeoffed their ruler as the Prince of Bohai. Before that, they referred to themselves as Mohe or as the kingdom of Zhen 振國 (震國).

Our thread on Bohai: http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=2535
I've heard on this forum that Tayy is also the origin of the Tang name for the Arabs, Dashi.

Disregarding the connection because the Han translation 1 thousand years apart is not exactly the same is a little hasty don't you think?

粟末 is not pronounced as SuMo, rather SuBoat or SuBut.

粟特 is PRC 's translation. Historically 粟特 has been recorded as 昭武九姓 (The 9 Family names of ZhaoWu). They are 康(Samarkand)、安(Bukhara)、石(Tashkent)、曹(Kaputana)、米(Maymurgh)、何 (Kushanik)、史(Kishsh) and so on. It would not be surprising if they move to North East China, the reason is the fur trade. 黑貂 fur trading to the Sugdas is as important as silk. Following is a passage regarding Sugdas:

中亞古國名。即索格狄亞那。位於阿姆河﹑錫爾河之間﹐以澤拉夫尚河﹑卡什卡河流域為中心的地區(今蘇聯塔吉克與烏茲別克境內)﹐古波斯文寫作 Suguda ﹐Sugda ﹐漢文譯作粟弋﹑屬繇﹑蘇薤﹑粟特等。梵文作Surika﹐中古波斯文作Sulik﹐漢譯作窣利﹑速利﹑蘇哩等。“粟特”一詞﹐一說來自共同伊朗語的詞根﹐意為“閃耀”﹑“燃燒”﹔一說在塔吉克－波斯語詞彙中意為“聚水窪地”。隋唐時代所謂昭武九姓大多在這一地區。當地居民稱之為粟特人。操粟特語。

In Ancient Persian, they are known as Suguda, Sughda ,in Sanskrit as Surika, in mid-persian as Sulik. Sugda is said to mean Shine and Burn. In Tajik Persian, Sugda means low land that collects water.

I have been many Bohai artifacts in museams before, and they look very much like things from Central Asia.

I wish I can find pictures to show that. Perhaps our Corean forumers can help with that.

Other historical mentions of Sugda moving to Manchuria:

《晉書》卷107《石季龍載記附冉閔》：

降胡粟特康等執冉胤及左仆射劉琦等送與（石） 祗”；石勒初起十八騎中之西域姓尚有夔安

《古今姓氏書辯證》卷3脂韻夔氏條：

石虎有太保夔安，自天竺徙遼東，玄孫逸，姚秦司空，騰仕後燕

related books on the Sughda Bohai relations:

E.V.夏富庫諾夫《東北亞民族歷史上的粟特人與黑貂之路》
V.M.瓦西裏耶夫《渤海人及女真文化中的粟特-伊朗要素》，收在《西伯利亞古代文化問題》

? Source?

Why don't you look that one up. Under any study of Y-chromosome for halogroup O group. This should be common enough to find.

Edited by naruwan, 12 December 2005 - 02:29 PM.

[naruwan]

One reconstruction of Yuezhi sounds like "gwat-ti, got-ti or gut-si"

I have said in the first thread, that In YueZhi's case, it would sound like "GuaChi" in Han dynasty.

But, as others provided example, 月 in 月氏's case is 肉 not 月. However, their argument is that 肉 sounds like 月 anyway.

By the way, to who ever mentioned this, I do agree before Mandarin took over, 肉 had a N initiate sound. Because all R initiated words in Mandarin at 中古音 had N as initiated sound. For example, 日 Ni.

However these words had a J or Z sound attached too. So does 肉.

月 however does not have a N initated sound. It has a Y initiated sound (中古) and it also has a G initated sound (上古).

[warlordgeneral]

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Edited by warlordgeneral, 31 March 2013 - 06:57 AM.

[naruwan]

And the Yuezhi migrations happened in the 2nd century BC, not the 1st, when the Tocharian nomads were already present in both Transoxiana/Sogdia and Baktria.
How does Yuezhi, or your "BaChi" sound anything like "Tocha"? On the other hand, it is worth knowing that, beginning in c. 4th century C.E., the name for the general area known as Baktria (modern northern Afghanistan) in ancient times began to be known as "Tocharistan/Tokharistan" after that, probably because of the legacy of the Yuezhi/Kushanas or Tocharian peoples residing in that area for quite a long time since the destruction of the last Greek kingdom in c. 145 BC.

Yes, I am aware of that.

The majority of the Yuezhi initially fled to the Ili valley, not Baktria. It was the Wusun, under the patronage of the Xiongnu, who invaded and drove the Yuezhi out of the Ili that the Yuezhi then fled to Baktria. See Han Shu 96A for all the details.

Yes, I am very well aware of that too.

[warlordgeneral]

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Edited by warlordgeneral, 31 March 2013 - 06:57 AM.