75 replies to this topic

[Yun]

But 月 is actually another way to write 肉....

Do you mean there was another word for 'moon' in Qin-Han times?

If not, how do you know whether in this context, the 月 was a real 月 or actually 肉?

[I know we've been over this before, but I'm still not convinced.]

[naruwan]

Do you mean there was another word for 'moon' in Qin-Han times?

If not, how do you know whether in this context, the 月 was a real 月 or actually 肉?

[I know we've been over this before, but I'm still not convinced.]

no problem. here we go



This character is 肉 Rou, meat.



This character is 月 Yue, Moon.

for example, 月桂 (cassia) is pronounced Rou Gui, instead of Yue Gui

Computer won't let me type these words properly. But Rou should be written with the two dots (like the side of 冰) instead of two horizontal lines.

[lifezard]

nguet?? I think that's based on the assumption that 月 is moon. But 月 is actually another way to write 肉....

hi,

this is the 1st time i heard of this actually, perhaps u can tell me more?

so if 月 is supposed to be another way to write 肉, how was it pronounced?

[naruwan]

hi,

this is the 1st time i heard of this actually, perhaps u can tell me more?

so if 月 is supposed to be another way to write 肉, how was it pronounced?

It seems the character pronunciation probably had evolved as such:


hakka canton Korean
ngiuk -> jio̍k -> yuk
　　　-> niok -> nio -> rou
Wu transition to Mandarin

however in Holo, which is considered to be closer to Han dynasty phonetics (especially when it's a colloquial pronunciation) , it is pronoucned as Bah.

i'll get back to this later

[naruwan]

the sad thing is, 切韻, 唐韻, 集韻, 廣韻 are all middle han language. Prior to Buddhism influence, phonology was not something people leave records on.

unless the Holo bah really came out of no where or is an influence of Bai-Yue, otherwise there should be a connection between Bah and Earlier Han language.

I see some reference saying the reconstructed Western Han Language 肉 is read as Nh@uk. I guess I can see how Bah, Ngiok, Jiok, Rou derived from this.

in 爾雅 (said to be oldest Han dictionary) 釋器：肉倍好謂之璧，好倍肉謂之瑗，肉好若一謂之環。

where 肉 is the jade, 好 is the hole on a circular jade worship ring. Where if Jade width of the jade is much wider than the hole, it's called a 璧. If hole is much larger than the width of the jade it's called 瑗, and if the width of the Jade and the hole are about the same size, it's called 環.

guess that doesn't help with how it's read either.

[lifezard]

It seems the character pronunciation probably had evolved as such:
hakka canton Korean
ngiuk -> jio̍k -> yuk
　　　-> niok -> nio -> rou
Wu transition to Mandarin

however in Holo, which is considered to be closer to Han dynasty phonetics (especially when it's a colloquial pronunciation) , it is pronoucned as Bah.

i'll get back to this later

i do not think "bah" is related to 肉 (suspected Bai Yue substratum in my opinion but unconfirmed)even, japanese 'niku' (is it kunyomi or onyomi?) is closer to the older chinese term..
also, this term is not universal as a general term for "meat" minnan areas,

the northern quanzhou areas has "hiap" , while the chaozhou areas has "nek", hainan has another term which i forgot, the only areas (according to my freind who s native quanzhou person) that has "bah" are the zhangzhou and southern quanzhou areas (xiamen, nan' an etc).. however, the term 'bah' is pretty well-known even amongst areas that dun used it. it may have been the general term in the minnan areas ages ago

(this is not a linguistic thread, if u are interested to carry on, lets do in the language section)

for example, 月桂 (cassia) is pronounced Rou Gui, instead of Yue Gui

i didn't know that... in my books it is always 肉桂

[lifezard]

no problem. here we go



This character is 肉 Rou, meat.



This character is 月 Yue, Moon.

for example, 月桂 (cassia) is pronounced Rou Gui, instead of Yue Gui

Computer won't let me type these words properly. But Rou should be written with the two dots (like the side of 冰) instead of two horizontal lines.

i supposed that these are the xiaozhuan forms? but besides shape similarities, were there any references (in dictionaries) to etymological relation?
also i do not think u answred yun s question what was the moon then if this 月 meant 'meat'

[Yun]

i didn't know that... in my books it is always 肉桂

Same here.

Naruwan, how do we know how the 月 in Yuezhi/Rouzhi was written in the original texts?

If it was



then you are correct, but there has to be evidence of it.

[naruwan]

Same here.

Naruwan, how do we know how the 月 in Yuezhi/Rouzhi was written in the original texts?

If it was



then you are correct, but there has to be evidence of it.

i think that's where we were stuck last time

I hope someone with access to more sources can provide help this time around.

I was taught that 月支 is pronounced as Rou Zhi since elementary school.

I see this in wiki regarding this question:

月氏的「月」字舊讀作「肉」，這是以訛傳訛結果，是誤讀。《說文解字》中「月」與「肉」是形似而不同的兩個部首，但常被混淆。新版的《辭海》已經將「月支」讀音糾正為「越」。「月氏」國在先秦史籍中早就見諸記載，即《逸周書》和《管子》中所記載的「禺氏」國。禺、月是同一外來語音的不同譯寫，不應當讀為「肉」。

中華民國（臺灣）教育部國語辭典中，月氏亦讀「ㄩㄝˋ ㄓ」（yùezhī）。但兼收「ㄖㄡˋ ㄓ」（ròuzhī）、「ㄖㄨˋ ㄓ」（rùzhī）兩種讀音。

so appearently in the original 辭海 Cihai, the word was written as Rouzhi.

Now I don't completely buy this theory. It is actually pretty difficult to mistaken Yue for Rou, and much easier the other way about.

According to the 禺氏 theory, ethomology shows:

Modern (Beijing) reading 　 yu/
Preclassic Old Chinese 　 n|(h)o
Classic Old Chinese 　 n|(h)o
Western Han Chinese 　 n|(h)wa
Eastern Han Chinese 　n|(h)wa
Early Postclassic Chinese 　 n|(h)wo
Middle Postclassic Chinese 　n|(h)wo
Late Postclassic Chinese 　n|(h)wo
Middle Chinese 　n|u"

【唐韻】【集韻】牛具切

all points to n initial with u ending

where as 月 is 魚厥切, which is n initial with at ending.

say the real pronounciation of 肉 is only nhuk, it'd say 禺氏 actually supports RouZhi rather than YueZhi theory

Edited by naruwan, 09 January 2007 - 05:45 AM.

[qrasy]

even with Lazio it still sounds a little off.

I wonder if it came from mistake, as how Russians call Chinese as "Kitai" (which should be pointing to 契丹).

I see some reference saying the reconstructed Western Han Language 肉 is read as Nh@uk. I guess I can see how Bah, Ngiok, Jiok, Rou derived from this.

For me, "bah" does not seem related.

so appearently in the original 辭海 Cihai, the word was written as Rouzhi.

In the version of my Cihai, the "rou" reading was not explicitly written down (but "zhi" is).
Rather, it quotes from 85th roll of 《說郛》, (?) or《金壼字考》of 適之, "月支,月音肉"

According to the 禺氏 theory, ethomology shows:
【唐韻】【集韻】牛具切

all points to n initial with u ending

No. It points to ng- initial (or g- in Minnan).
Ng- can change to N- in Mandarin before -i- (though "far from 100%"),
Examples (left: Sino-Vietnamese, right: Cantonese):
虐 ngược (where ươc rhymes with 腳) yeuk6
孽 nghiệt yit6
凝 ngưng ying4
霓 nghê ngai4
逆 nghịch yik6
牛 ngưu ngau4
All the ng- is preserved in Sino-Vietnamese, but in Cantonese it becomes "y" if the vowel is "i".

The "n|" above might be because of "ŋ" is difficult to write (technical limitation).

say the real pronounciation of 肉 is only nhuk, it'd say 禺氏 actually supports RouZhi rather than YueZhi theory

I think Ngu-Chi 禺氏 supports Nguyệt-Chi 月氏 better than Nhục-Chi 肉氏.

Edited by qrasy, 09 January 2007 - 07:11 AM.

[lifezard]

I wonder if it came from mistake, as how Russians call Chinese as "Kitai" (which should be pointing to 契丹).

For me, "bah" does not seem related.

In the version of my Cihai, the "rou" reading was not explicitly written down (but "zhi" is).
Rather, it quotes from 85th roll of 《說郛》, (?) or《金壼字考》of 適之, "月支,月音肉"

No. It points to ng- initial (or g- in Minnan).
Ng- can change to N- in Mandarin before -i- (though "far from 100%"),
Examples (left: Sino-Vietnamese, right: Cantonese):
虐 ngược (where ươc rhymes with 腳) yeuk6
孽 nghiệt yit6
凝 ngưng ying4
霓 nghê ngai4
逆 nghịch yik6
牛 ngưu ngau4
All the ng- is preserved in Sino-Vietnamese, but in Cantonese it becomes "y" if the vowel is "i".

The "n|" above might be because of "ŋ" is difficult to write (technical limitation).
I think Ngu-Chi 禺氏 supports Nguyệt-Chi 月氏 better than Nhục-Chi 肉氏.

.. i was going to say that too..but i think you will do it better than me anyway

月氏的「月」字舊讀作「肉」，這是以訛傳訛結果，是誤讀。《說文解字》中「月」與「肉」是形似而不同的兩個部首，但常被混淆。新版的《辭海》已經將「月支」讀音糾正為「越」。「月氏」國在先秦史籍中早就見諸記載，即《逸周書》和《管子》中所記載的「禺氏」國。禺、月是同一外來語音的不同譯寫，不應當讀為「肉」。

中華民國（臺灣）教育部國語辭典中，月氏亦讀「ㄩㄝˋ ㄓ」（yùezhī）。但兼收「ㄖㄡˋ ㄓ」（ròuzhī）、「ㄖㄨˋ ㄓ」（rùzhī）兩種讀音。

i think the wiki said that reading 「月」 as 「肉 was a misreading, is it not?


anyway, anyone knows how early was '月氏' used to denote the people? was '月氏' already used in pre-qin times?

[Yun]

anyway, anyone knows how early was '月氏' used to denote the people? was '月氏' already used in pre-qin times?

I think its first appearance is in the Shiji.

[lifezard]

I think its first appearance is in the Shiji.

then , i suppose the similarities between the xiaozhuan forms of 'meat' and 'moon' may be invalid in the case of yueshi?

since lishu was already used by han times?

[naruwan]

then , i suppose the similarities between the xiaozhuan forms of 'meat' and 'moon' may be invalid in the case of yueshi?

since lishu was already used by han times?

while 說文解字 was written in Eastern Han Dynasty, it was still written in 小篆 xiaozhuan. point is, 肉 written as 月 has made itself into the Han characters.

words like 脈, 背, 肌, 肘, 腳 all shows that.

Here are some other clues.

The first known reference to the Yuezhi was made in 645 BC by the Chinese author Guan Zhong in his Guanzi 管子. He described the Yuzhi 禺氏, or Niuzhi 牛氏

by qrasy's example, 牛 being ŋuua is probably more like 月 as well.

What about Greco sources?

月氏 are believed to have been the same as or closely related to the Indo-European people named Tocharians (Τοχάριοι) by ancient Greeks, originally settled in the arid grasslands of the eastern Tarim Basin area, in what is today Xinjiang, Gansu, and possibly Qilian in China, before they migrated to Trans-oxiana, Bactria and then northern South Asia, where they formed the Kushan Empire.

[lifezard]

while 說文解字 was written in Eastern Han Dynasty, it was still written in 小篆 xiaozhuan. point is, 肉 written as 月 has made itself into the Han characters.

1. the shuowen does contain the xiaozhuan characters, but it had already ceased to be in common use at the time xu shen compiled the dictionary.. the shuowen actually served as a reference to the old characters like a dictionary teaching an old extinct language

words like 脈, 背, 肌, 肘, 腳 all shows that.

you have a point here... i was wondering the '月' semantic portion here may be derived from the older xiaozhuang chracter for 'meat'?

The first known reference to the Yuezhi was made in 645 BC by the Chinese author Guan Zhong in his Guanzi 管子. He described the Yuzhi 禺氏, or Niuzhi 牛氏



by qrasy's example, 牛 being ŋuua is probably more like 月 as well.

in middle chinese, 牛 was indeed a nasal velar like 月, the modern minnan pronuounciation 'guu' is a remnant, having lost the nasal element