75 replies to this topic

[naruwan]

That is more like a coincidence as Cantonese and Hakka do not distinguish the initials anymore.
Sino-Vietnamese and Sino-Japanese, however, preserved them.

禺 and 牛 were both more similar to 月 than 肉...
The similarity of the initial with 肉 is quite recent. None of the reconstruction in http://starling.rine...gi...a\bigchina confuses them: 禺牛月 start with ŋ- , 肉 starts with n/ń.
I don't think Chinese were very respectful to others when it came to transliteration. Examples are 匈奴 and 身毒.

Well, that depends on how tolerant your term of "human" is.
Mutations tend to make the gene types diverge, so if they were not "humans", then (most likely) only one of the "races" became "human".

while that is true, but the Han wanted their help. So perhaps they showed more respect?

also, since the only recording of the alternate name for 月氏, 禺氏 was from the questionable 管子... I am starting to wonder if the name 月氏 was a translation at all.

Let's face it, non-Han sources referred to these people as Jats, Kushan or Tocharian.

None of which sounded anything like 月氏 (with the exception of Jats, but then I'd say Jats sounds more like 肉氏).

So could it be that they are 氏 people with the title of 月？ Similar to names such as 犬戎 or 青羌????

[qrasy]

also, since the only recording of the alternate name for 月氏, 禺氏 was from the questionable 管子... I am starting to wonder if the name 月氏 was a translation at all.

Were the names 牛氏/禺氏 older than 月氏?
(The wikipedia article of Yuezhi seems to imply it)

Let's face it, non-Han sources referred to these people as Jats, Kushan or Tocharian.

None of which sounded anything like 月氏 (with the exception of Jats, but then I'd say Jats sounds more like 肉氏).

But then I don't think 肉氏 sounded like "Jats" then. But then, other languages also evolve.

So could it be that they are 氏 people with the title of 月？ Similar to names such as 犬戎 or 青羌????

Maybe, but 牛 and 禺 were also close to 月.

[naruwan]

Were the names 牛氏/禺氏 older than 月氏?
(The wikipedia article of Yuezhi seems to imply it)

But then I don't think 肉氏 sounded like "Jats" then. But then, other languages also evolve.

Maybe, but 牛 and 禺 were also close to 月.

The 牛氏/禺氏 comes from sources that is said to be from the time of warring states. However some suspect that it these sources were forgeries made up after Han dynasty.

[Ravi Chaudhary]

while that is true, but the Han wanted their help. So perhaps they showed more respect?

also, since the only recording of the alternate name for 月氏, 禺氏 was from the questionable 管子... I am starting to wonder if the name 月氏 was a translation at all.

Let's face it, non-Han sources referred to these people as Jats, Kushan or Tocharian.

None of which sounded anything like 月氏 (with the exception of Jats, but then I'd say Jats sounds more like 肉氏).

So could it be that they are 氏 people with the title of 月？ Similar to names such as 犬戎 or 青羌????

Interesting discussion.

I need some help

My interest is the connection between the terms "Yueh Zhi" and the Jats.

Specifically :

A scenario:

Some chinese traveller/ scholar came across the Jats in the BCE period in the central asia/ Bactrian area..

The term "Jat" was recorded in the Chinese language as it was then spoken.


I seem to gather that the modern nomenclature is the term "Yueh Zhi", which phonetically can also be pronounced as "Ngiwat" or "Nguet", both of which terms if the, to be expected distortion in phonetics is taken into account, sound very much like the term "JAT" , with hard "T" at the end.

Am I on the right track?


Ravi Chaudhary

[Ravi Chaudhary]

Yes, but more on my track than some others'. The characters "Yueh Zhi" is not really modern nomenclature, but recorded long ago-- whereas "Ngiwat" or "Nguet" are more like the modern pronunications. Though both the ending sounds goes through a little less distortion than the initials and has the "hard" AT.

There is actually a 2nd part to the probem-- how was "Jat" sound pronounced then and was it a reliably accurate recording/ transliteration of the "Jat" name?

Thank you very much for the quick response.

Jat with the hard T is the pretty much unchanged since ancient times.

We do find variants of the term and I am having, as may be expected, diffilculty in determining how, where, and when the changes occurred. That would an interesting line of research though.

We do also find that the G and the J sounds are interchangeable in certain circumstances.

Thus we also find Jat, Jutt, Gut.

There are other variations and we could with your assistance explore them later.


For now, Please could we stay with the Yueh Zhi - Ngiwat - Jat relationship.

I am quite convinced, based on hitsorical evidence, that the chinese writers were referring to the Jats when they wrote Yueh Zhi/Ngiwat.

How was /is the chinese character for 'Jat' written?

In 500 BCE, 0 CE, and then on, how did it term/ sound evolve over the centuries to our current era?

What were the phonetical sounds?.

When you pronounce 'ngiwat', is the 'n' letter silent or is there a touch of a'n' sound.



Thank you very much for the help


Ravi Chaudhary

[qrasy]

The characters "Yueh Zhi" is not really modern nomenclature, but recorded long ago

If you want to say "the chatacters" then you should write "月氏" otherwise it's easy to misinterpret/misread the sentence to "the spelling".

whereas "Ngiwat" or "Nguet" are more like the modern pronunications.

It is like modern pronunciations, but not Mandarin.

There is actually a 2nd part to the probem-- how was "Jat" sound pronounced then and was it a reliably accurate recording/ transliteration of the "Jat" name?

Do you know in which script was the "Jat" written? Was it probably "Giat"?

We do also find that the G and the J sounds are interchangeable in certain circumstances.

The direction is from G to J.
You never read J as G, but you do read G as something like J sometimes. This is palatalization, they change the reading of G before E and I to something like J.
Just like how C can change to S while it usually represents something like K.

How was /is the chinese character for 'Jat' written?

I think this is not a Chinese terms.

When you pronounce 'ngiwat', is the 'n' letter silent or is there a touch of a'n' sound.

Neither n nor g are silent for the common ng- initial. The 'ng' actually represents one sound as in 'singing'.

[Ravi Chaudhary]

Query>
When you pronounce 'ngiwat', is the 'n' letter silent or is there a touch of a'n' sound.

Response> Neither n nor g are silent for the common ng- initial. The 'ng' actually represents one sound as in 'singing'.

*********

This is a great help.

I am for the moment, excluding the side threads. and trying to get one small point out of the way. We can and will return to them later, for your help.

The original interaction would be oral, not written.


I can see a traveler coming across the “Jats’, and when pronouncing the word in his own language, at that time the then spoken form of Chinese, phonetically adding an “n” nasal sound, which would phonetically give the sound “ njat’ ‘ngiwat’, both being pretty close.

Does this make sense?

Ravi

Edited by Ravi Chaudhary, 21 June 2007 - 11:45 AM.

[qrasy]

The original interaction would be oral, not written.

In which script it was written may give insight on what it sounded like... as we can guess if the sounds changed.

I can see a traveler coming across the “Jats’, and when pronouncing the word in his own language, at that time the then spoken form of Chinese, phonetically adding an “n” nasal sound, which would phonetically give the sound “ njat’ ‘ngiwat’, both being pretty close.

Does this make sense?

How about, the name was actually not "Jat" (remember that the name "Jat" is from external source, too).
Maybe the name contained 'ng', but the source could not pronounce the 'ng-' initial (I am assuming roots with ng- was and is not commonly found across languages) and changed it to 'g-'. Or maybe it was "g", but the Chinese mistook the g- to be ng-.
You can easily get gi -> ji palatalization after some vowel change.

Adding n- arbitrarily seems weird (though I can't say impossible).

Edited by qrasy, 22 June 2007 - 03:25 AM.

[Yongwoni GOD]

When you pronounce 'ngiwat', is the 'n' letter silent or is there a touch of a'n' sound.
Thank you very much for the help
Ravi Chaudhary

'ng' is a single velar-nasal consonant (IPA as ŋ), its found only in final positions in Mandarin and English but it's also an initial in Middle Chinese and is preserved as an initial in Cantonese and Hakka. (eg. 'Ngo' for me) Its place of articulation is velar which means it is articulated with the back part of the tongue (the dorsum) against the soft palate (the velum). It is a nasal consonant, which means air is allowed to escape through the nose. It's basically pronounced the same as an initial g- but with air pushed out of the nose (nasal) before the plosive.

Edited by Yongwoni GOD, 22 June 2007 - 05:39 AM.

[qrasy]

It is a nasal consonant, which means air is allowed to escape through the nose. It's basically pronounced the same as an initial g- but with air pushed out of the nose (nasal) before the plosive.

It's one single nasal consonant. No plosive has to be pronounced. Just like you don't have to say /b/ directly after you say /m/ (giving a result of /mb/).

[Yongwoni GOD]

It's one single nasal consonant. No plosive has to be pronounced. Just like you don't have to say /b/ directly after you say /m/ (giving a result of /mb/).

Maybe not excatly plosive,,,but before the back of the tongue creates friction with the soft palate

[qrasy]

Maybe not excatly plosive,,,but before the back of the tongue creates friction with the soft palate

Well... if there's audible friction then it's fricative, which means that's not a normal nasal consonant either.

For nasal consonants, the articulators just touch (get in contact with, of course also press it slightly) each other, blocking the oral cavity but not the path of air to nose.
Just try to pronounce the "easier" /m-/. You won't feel friction on your lips, which is essentially because you can't blow air through your lips when you pronounce this sound. There's no air flowing to there (blocked).

Edited by qrasy, 25 June 2007 - 09:55 AM.

[Peter S]

Yuezhi/Kushan did move into northwest India/Pakistan. Combined with other warrior people who also moved into northwest India/Pakistan, they formed the present warrior caste of Rajputs (not Jats).

Rajputs have their own website. You may wish to look at their website.

[qrasy]

According to wiki, one theory says that "Jat" was originally spelt "Gyati"... The first syllable is similar enough, and this also explains the second syllable "氏". (well, then it would better be 氐 than 氏 or 支)

Yuezhi/Kushan did move into northwest India/Pakistan. Combined with other warrior people who also moved into northwest India/Pakistan, they formed the present warrior caste of Rajputs (not Jats).

Rajput is a caste, not "tribe"/ethnic group.
Does Rajputra... mean "descendants of the king" (Indonesian words of "raja"(king) and "putra"(son) are possibly borrowed from Indian)?
According to Wikipedia, Rajput comes from Rajaputra, who were descendants of a king who did not become king.

Edited by qrasy, 28 June 2007 - 01:07 AM.

[Peter S]

Hi Grasy,

The emperor is always right.

I know many Jats. They are fine people. They live mainly in Northwest India and in Pakistan. They originally came from Central Asia, most probably of Iranian stock. Most of them are down to earth farmers.

Kushans, on the other hand, were fancy warriors. There were Kushan kingdoms in which Kushans were the ruling class. I don't think that Kushans disappeared from the face of the earth. I have read that the Kushans, together with other fancy warriors and ruling classes, merged into the Rajputs.

Unlike other parts of India, in Northwest India and in Pakistan, the line between caste and ethnic group is perhaps sometimes non-existent? Not so long ago, in the Jat website, the major topic of discussion was "Jat is not a caste". What a hoot! If you want to learn more about the Jats, you can go to the Jat website. Perhaps you can start a discussion topic on the Jat website: "Jats are Kushans"?