212 replies to this topic

[ih8eurocentrix]

Did chinese art of war decline after the three kingdoms ? Han and Qin armies had control over the xiongnu ,but later chinese armies like song and ming had difficulty beating them even though technology was better

Edited by Yun, 14 December 2005 - 11:42 PM.

[Yun]

Did chinese art of war decline after the three kingdoms ? Han and Qin armies had control over the xiongnu ,but later chinese armies like song and ming had difficulty beating them even though technology was better

Aren't you forgetting the Tang?

I wouldn't say the Chinese got much worse. Rather, their steppe enemies got better at incorporating new technology. Possibly the professionalization of the army and its control by civil bureaucrats (rather than military aristocrats) during the Song and Ming also had an adverse effect on its efficiency.

[ih8eurocentrix]

i wanted to say Tang but the age of fragmentation the nomads had superiority, i havent actually researched this time period but looking foward too it?
What i mean is the Ancient strategies and tactics of warring states are the pinnacle of warfare because of constant fighting i thought the soldiers of china were battle hardened warriors unlike later chinese who were mostly lived in peace .

[Yun]

i wanted to say Tang but the age of fragmentation the nomads had superiority

It's much more complicated. The 'nomads' (e.g. Xiongnu, Jie and Xianbei) who established states and dynasties during the Age of Fragmentation had already switched from nomadism to a sedentary mixed herding-agricultural lifestyle, and many were no longer living on the steppe. Other groups like the Qiang and Di had never been nomads. Militarily, the source of their superiority over Western Jin armies was not nomad cavalry per se, but rather a fusion of Han iron armour technology with steppe cavalry tactics - the cataphract heavy cavalryman, first used by Wuhuan and Xianbei armies in alliance with Chinese armies. This served as both an archery platform and shock cavalry, in a style similar to late Sassanian cataphracts.

The Tang adopted these tactics, although horse armour declined in importance in the field.

[ih8eurocentrix]

okay what about the infantry tactics

[HaSY]

Song dynasty's crossbow infantries are feared by the nomad cavalry...

[浪淘音]

Did chinese art of war decline after the three kingdoms ? Han and Qin armies had control over the xiongnu ,but later chinese armies like song and ming had difficulty beating them even though technology was better

hmmm what makes you think the army of the three kingdoms were especially good?

i always saw that era as an akward transition period from the Han era light cavalry-horse archer/infantry armies to the nomad centric armies of the Nanbei Chao era

other than rival Chinese kingdoms, Chinese during three kingdoms era faced relatively little threat from nomads (the real test of military might) since so many nomads were hired by Wei as mercenaries (which would ironically help in the fragmentation of the empire since so many of them were settled within China's borders)

and as far as ethnically Han Chinese dynasties, Han and Tang were the most militarily strong

despite the fact that Song/Ming is known for military weakness, the military technological innovations went on to influence the whole world

[Yun]

Song dynasty's crossbow infantries are feared by the nomad cavalry...

Actually we only know that Zeng Gongliang said they were feared by the Khitan Liao cavalry. The Jurchen Jin super-heavy cavalry didn't seem to fear them, except for the extra-powerful shenbi (divine arm) crossbow that was probably never widespread in Song armies.

other than rival Chinese kingdoms, Chinese during three kingdoms era faced relatively little threat from nomads (the real test of military might) since so many nomads were hired by Wei as mercenaries (which would ironically help in the fragmentation of the empire since so many of them were settled within China's borders)

Cao Cao did defeat the Wuhuan allies of the Yuan family decisively at Mountain Bailang, despite having only light cavalry most of which was not even armoured. Earlier he had also defeated Yuan Shao despite Yuan's advantage in having 300 armoured horses. So I would infer that Cao Cao passed the test because of superior tactical skill, before he was able to employ many Wuhuan and Xiongnu as auxiliaries or mercenaries.

[Wujiang]

I would say Northern Song

[Yun]

I would say Northern Song

Meaning the Khitan and Jurchen were even stronger?

[Wujiang]

Meaning the Khitan and Jurchen were even stronger?

Not really, one can argue that the nothern song was defeated from within.

[Inst]

People's Liberation Army ftw. You launch one division of the PLA vs the entire Ming/Qing/Song/Tang/Yuan army, and the PLA wins. =)

So you have to talk about the relative strength of the Chinese military vis-a-vis other military powers or the skill of the Chinese military leadership.

[浪淘音]

Actually we only know that Zeng Gongliang said they were feared by the Khitan Liao cavalry. The Jurchen Jin super-heavy cavalry didn't seem to fear them, except for the extra-powerful shenbi (divine arm) crossbow that was probably never widespread in Song armies.
Cao Cao did defeat the Wuhuan allies of the Yuan family decisively at Mountain Bailang, despite having only light cavalry most of which was not even armoured. Earlier he had also defeated Yuan Shao despite Yuan's advantage in having 300 armoured horses. So I would infer that Cao Cao passed the test because of superior tactical skill, before he was able to employ many Wuhuan and Xiongnu as auxiliaries or mercenaries.

i never doubted Cao Cao or any individuals from the era had military skills but as a whole the era was not some zenith of Chinese military might

Edited by 浪淘音, 15 December 2005 - 10:17 PM.