53 replies to this topic

[snowybeagle]

Actions such as the Jinshin no ran of 672 were one member of the imperial line against another, never an outsider acting without the sponsorship of an imperial claimant.

I am not as familiar with Japanese history as I'd like to be, but I think in power struggles on Japan, it would probably be more often the "outsider" "sponsor" the imperial claimant (to be a puppet figurehead) rather than the other way round.

On the bloodline of Amaterasu, as successions had been done via female lines, powerful clans obtained or maintained legitimacy as de facto rulers through arranging marriages with the imperial clan, and voila, effectively placing their own descendants into the thrones. The 5 Houses of Fujiwara clan were most famous for monopolising the pool of brides of the Tenno.

As the imperial clan did not have an official surname or dynastic name, it was easier to maintain the impression of unbroken Yamato lineage of the Tenno.

[caocao74]

I am not as familiar with Japanese history as I'd like to be, but I think in power struggles on Japan, it would probably be more often the "outsider" "sponsor" the imperial claimant (to be a puppet figurehead) rather than the other way round.
On the bloodline of Amaterasu, as successions had been done via female lines, powerful clans obtained or maintained legitimacy as de facto rulers through arranging marriages with the imperial clan, and voila, effectively placing their own descendants into the thrones. The 5 Houses of Fujiwara clan were most famous for monopolising the pool of brides of the Tenno.
As the imperial clan did not have an official surname or dynastic name, it was easier to maintain the impression of unbroken Yamato lineage of the Tenno.

Exactly, the Fujiwara, like the Soga before them, never acted without imperial 'acceptance'. It is easy to see the imperial claimants as puppets (like many of the later Ashikaga Shoguns, particularly the last Yoshiaki), but no-one attempted to come from the sidelines and usurp power (as in Europe and mainland Asia), but to exert influence (through force-of-arms (Minamoto, Hojo, Ashikaga, Oda, Toyotomi, or Tokugawa) or through their daughters (Soga & Fujiwara).

[lobster]

Would it be more accurate to compare the Japanese emperor with the Pope? No king tried to usurp the papacy, right?

[caocao74]

Would it be more accurate to compare the Japanese emperor with the Pope? No king tried to usurp the papacy, right?

No King attempting to usurp the Pope? Well, the the Great Schism of the later Middle Ages was caused by France and the Habsburgs attempting to put their own claimants upon the papal throne, resulting in a pope in Rome and another in Avignon. Also the popes do not all claim to descend from a single line of predecessors. The Japanese Emperor did have the similar ultimate position within his people's faith though.

[snowybeagle]

Read that the Fujiwara also claimed to descend from a kami, and hence their qualification to intermarry with the kami descended imperial family. Which kami was it that the Fujiwara claim ancestry?

[caocao74]

Read that the Fujiwara also claimed to descend from a kami, and hence their qualification to intermarry with the kami descended imperial family. Which kami was it that the Fujiwara claim ancestry?

The Fujiwara family 藤原氏 were descended from Nakatomi no Kamatari 中臣鎌足, who became the first Fujiwara (thus Fujiwara no Kamatari 藤原鎌足) after the name was granted to him by the Emperor Tenji.
The Nakatomi had supported Naka no Oe (the future Emperor Tenji) but they were rather a lowly court family, and I've never read of their alleged descent from a kami.

[coco2000]

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My question is: Although Japan borrowed an immense amount of culture from China in its beginnings of Wei why did it not adapt China's political theory?

Hmmm I don't know why you think Japan borrowed a huge amount of culture from China. As I am Korean, i hardly find similarities between the two countries' culture. Their way of thinkings, food, traditional clothes, way of lives are totally different for me.

Chinese culture is various and mixture of many different cultures as there existed many different peoples and many dynasties. I hardly say that only one unique Chinese culture influnced Japan and it is not a good idea that you try to find somthing Chinese in Japanese culture.

[Kediren]

My question is: Although Japan borrowed an immense amount of culture from China in its beginnings of Wei why did it not adapt China's political theory?

because it is a japan and not china..

[caocao74]

because it is a japan and not china..

Simply, yes, agreed, just because one country borrows an idea, concept or principle from another does not mean it becomes the same.

[XuanYuan]

I think the reason has to something to do with the difference in two nations's social structure. In China, feudalism was effectively over by the end of Zhou dyansty. This then gave rise to the centralized bureaucratic style of government during Qin/Han and which formed the fundation of Chinese political theory. In Japan, its different. Feudalism in Japan existed for a very long time till pre-mordern era, and the Chinese style of centralized government could not be applied there.

[caocao74]

I think the reason has to something to do with the difference in two nations's social structure. In China, feudalism was effectively over by the end of Zhou dyansty. This then gave rise to the centralized bureaucratic style of government during Qin/Han and which formed the fundation of Chinese political theory. In Japan, its different. Feudalism in Japan existed for a very long time till pre-mordern era, and the Chinese style of centralized government could not be applied there.

That is of course true IMO; for instance the Chinese emperor was the ultimate arbiter in state affairs (if in theory in some cases if not fact) where as the Japanese emperor rarely after the 8th Century exhibited real authority, and was relegated/promoted (delete as you deem applicable) to a symbolic, quasi-religious role under the authority of various sessho, kanpaku and shogun.

[caocao74]

Both Korea and Japan adopted Chinese culture. This is an indisputable fact.

I don't think anyone is arguing that; but 'adopting' and 'copying' are not the same, thus we have states which adopted Chinese models of philosophy, governance, et alia, but were not carbon-copies.

[caocao74]

In regard to which elements Japan adopted from China, is there a Chinese equivalent to the divination practices of Onmyoudou, a synthesis of the Five Elements, Daoism, Yin & Yang, Shintoism and Buddhism, with a large dose of supersitition. It was an important element in court life during the Heianjidai, particularly under influential Onmyouji like Abe no Seimei.