395 replies to this topic

[mohistManiac]

Yes, the vietnamese were right. The original Huaxia was a bunch of really tall mandarin speaking Northern Chinese. They were really buff and and barked in Mandarin. Their first king, Qin shi huang, unified them into the Northern Chinese Mandarin empire. Then, they expand and occupy Cantonese country, occupied by the Cantonese baiyue tribes. The original Baiyue culture and modern Cantonese culture are the same so they are the same people. Qin shi Huang spoke mandarin and tried to enslave the Cantonese Baiyue using mandarin. Then Goujian, the minnan king, escaped from Jiangnan and formed his Hokkien country called Minyue, or Minnanyue....and the story of 4000 years of northern chinese mandarin imperialism continues. Minnanyue gets ocnquered by the mandarin empire. Then Cantoneseyue led by zhao tuo gets conquered by the second mandarin chinese empire led by mandarin speaker Han Wudi, who the vietnamese call the ',cruel han chinese tyrant'

By the way, viets fondly claim the ancestors of the Han Chinese are Huaxia. The viets tell me that if you are not a pure blood descendent of huaxia, you are not han chinese. Thats why the Cantonese are not han chinese. they are descended from Yue.


See kids, if you smoke crack, this is what you will hear. In other words, listening to the Vietnamese story here gets your head on drugs and you won't know anything about China,s regional development. You make think that all of China's warring states spoke Mandarin officially, even i know mandarin didn,t exist back then, lol. Today, nobody is descended from Huaxia (which WAS NOT EVEN A RACE OR ETHNICITY IN THE FIRST PLACE). Then according to the vietnamese idea of ''who is a Han chinese'', your mind will get mind molested: Nobody would have been able to qualify to be Han Chinese even though the Viets continue to insist that Northern chinese are ''real han chinese'' without much credible evidence. One thing for sure, the vietnamese can get real creative when they (and Koreans) like to pick and choose who is chinese and who is not. They are really picky. Maybe they ought to eat some healthy vegetables to be strong instead of eating and promoting weak junk material.

Huaxia means civilized society. It is a cultural marker unsymbolic of race, ethnicity, or country.

A child of Hua may have existed but it would amount to a child having been born of two parents which had been residing within states east of Qin. In other words, the Qin were compelled to distinguish between the Hua and themselves for the sake of allowing transmission of power only to those which are deemed loyal enough. It's like you can't be a president of a country unless you were born there. So technically Hua can be an ethnicity but through the passage of thousands of years there's obviously no such thing as a pure descendant of Hua, obviously since the Henan area has transferred power to so many different dynasties. The only thing unmistakably Hua about Huaren is the history which exists for them which began from Huaxia power consolidation in Henan and surrounding territories. It's like the Roman empire where every ethnic group was different for their own locality or province but the historical veneration begins with Rome itself at the very center.

[Corean Chinghiz]

A child of Hua may have existed but it would amount to a child having been born of two parents which had been residing within states east of Qin. In other words, the Qin were compelled to distinguish between the Hua and themselves for the sake of allowing transmission of power only to those which are deemed loyal enough. It's like you can't be a president of a country unless you were born there. So technically Hua can be an ethnicity but through the passage of thousands of years there's obviously no such thing as a pure descendant of Hua, obviously since the Henan area has transferred power to so many different dynasties. The only thing unmistakably Hua about Huaren is the history which exists for them which began from Huaxia power consolidation in Henan and surrounding territories. It's like the Roman empire where every ethnic group was different for their own locality or province but the historical veneration begins with Rome itself at the very center.

Does Huaxia really point to a race or an agricultural population. Is it really an ethnicity.....I can agree with Yun (the most knowgeable poster on this forum) that it is a cultural marker.

[mohistManiac]

Does Huaxia really point to a race or an agricultural population. Is it really an ethnicity.....I can agree with Yun (the most knowgeable poster on this forum) that it is a cultural marker.

Is Roman not a cultural marker? A central position is quickly noted from which power appeared to expand in a core to peripheral manner. However cultural education was also key. One had to be educated in Roman ways and uphold its values and systems. You couldn't just live in a Roman looking city and expect everyone to greet you as a Roman. However, the challenge in accepting this was the fact that Rome was covered in the developmental tracks of its own native people. People like the Etruscans of Tuscany had been quietly living in middle Italy for many generations. In the early sense the Henan area gave rise to Luoyang while later on bureaucrats moved from place to place. In the early Shang period when its capital was further east, more people from the immediate area would have been chosen to serve the capital and its civilization. So early Shang capitals were filled with ethnic Shang or Dongyi folk. According to the traditional Xia Shang Zhou timeframe, Shang would confront and defeat the Xia predecessors. Then it would experience defeat at the hands of the Zhou. The quick succession proves the middle area to be turbulent and ideally mixed from various sources. If one does not want to believe in the Xia then they could just believe that the Dongyi Shang moved west and the Xirong Zhou moved east until both filled the Xia are and fixated some general forms as the earliest manifestation of Huaxia people and cultural identity.

[cantonia's dim sum fak choy]

Vietnamese people are sinophobic racists, which is part of the core culture. Its not ''some'' vietnamese who make these claims, its the majority. A widespread problem indeed.

Step 1) They take a map of china during the zhou, qin, and han dynasties

Step2) They look at a 2012 map of china

Step3) They claim the warring states, zhou dynasty, qin dynasty, and han dynasty as ''northern'' empires that spoke ''mandarin'' (I don't think anybody knew mandarin at the time). Its because these dynasties and states were rooted in the central plains in north china, another example of vietnamese location logic with complete disregard of historical contexts.

Step4) They point to guangdong on the 2012 map and claim every cantonese to be tai-kadai (Baiyue), fujianese as minyue (austronesian), etc. Minyue and Nanyue existed in guangdong and fujian 2200 years ago and the modern day inhabitants in these regions must be their pure descendents. Vietnamese logic dictates that location determines who people are. Too bad the migrants just disappeared into thin air, if vietnamese nationalists can explain this houdini trick.

Step5) Since Mandarin speakers occupy northern china in large numbers, then they must be the same as the zhou, qin, han, and early huaxia. Its only a matter of convenience for the vietnamese. Same location = same people. China's civilization started in the north so the northerners must have conquered the southerners. Too bad the vietnamese forgot about steppe invasions in northern china and migrations south after the han dynasty. Its also sad that the vietnamese forgot about the old chinese language spoken by the zhou, qin, and han dynasties. They must have thought old chinese = proto mandarin, lol.

step6) Overall, Vietnamese people use a couple maps and draw erroneous conclusions based on faulty evidence and logic. This is what they mean when they say their claims are ''supported'' by history, because its not.

Step7) By making the yue claim, the vietnamese are in effect saying that Cantonese are tai-kadai zhuang people, fujianese are austronesian people, jiangnanese are hmong-mien people, and sichuanese are ba-shu people (an extension of their logic was used as an example on sichuan). Baiyue is a diverse group, just because a tribe is yue doesn't mean its automatically vietnamese. Vietnam = Lac viet (Long lac quan) + au viet (Au co).

Step8) They always talk about Han vs Yue. Funny....Han chinese is a modern ethnic concept. Baiyue is not a race, its a generic term for a diverse group of people. If Baiyue was one race, then zhuang, dai, miao, yao, li, maonan, vietnamese, etc....would go under a single panethnic label or a general umbrella. Han vs yue = comparing apples and bananas

Basically, the vietnamese jump to conclusions and make silly remarks based on ancient locations. Liu Bang wasn't a northerner. In fact, he came from chu, the southermost warring state. The zhou dynasty was a collection of tribes. Vietnamese don't know what han chinese is and generally, they are wrong about china. This type of historiography is unacceptable. There is nothing wrong with cantonese, fujianese, having yue blood. It doesn't make them less chinese as northerners have steppe and altaic genes too.

BTW, I've seen them using the term northern huaxia, lol. Huaxia were a confederation of tribes, but I don't think they spoke mandarin.

Conclusion: vietnamese are uneducated about china and don't know that much. They hate china so they make these claims. Cantonese and Fujianese are obssessed with northern ancestry so they have an identity crisis. This is sickening.

Edited by cantonia's dim sum fak choy, 27 July 2012 - 05:23 PM.

[YummYakitori]

Vietnamese people are sinophobic racists, which is part of the core culture. Its not ''some'' vietnamese who make these claims, its the majority. A widespread problem indeed.

Step 1) They take a map of china during the zhou, qin, and han dynasties

Step2) They look at a 2012 map of china

Step3) They claim the warring states, zhou dynasty, qin dynasty, and han dynasty as ''northern'' empires that spoke ''mandarin'' (I don't think anybody knew mandarin at the time). Its because these dynasties and states were rooted in the central plains in north china, another example of vietnamese location logic with complete disregard of historical contexts.

Step4) They point to guangdong on the 2012 map and claim every cantonese to be tai-kadai (Baiyue), fujianese as minyue (austronesian), etc. Minyue and Nanyue existed in guangdong and fujian 2200 years ago and the modern day inhabitants in these regions must be their pure descendents. Vietnamese logic dictates that location determines who people are. Too bad the migrants just disappeared into thin air, if vietnamese nationalists can explain this houdini trick.

Step5) Since Mandarin speakers occupy northern china in large numbers, then they must be the same as the zhou, qin, han, and early huaxia. Its only a matter of convenience for the vietnamese. Same location = same people. China's civilization started in the north so the northerners must have conquered the southerners. Too bad the vietnamese forgot about steppe invasions in northern china and migrations south after the han dynasty. Its also sad that the vietnamese forgot about the old chinese language spoken by the zhou, qin, and han dynasties. They must have thought old chinese = proto mandarin, lol.

step6) Overall, Vietnamese people use a couple maps and draw erroneous conclusions based on faulty evidence and logic. This is what they mean when they say their claims are ''supported'' by history, because its not.

Step7) By making the yue claim, the vietnamese are in effect saying that Cantonese are tai-kadai zhuang people, fujianese are austronesian people, jiangnanese are hmong-mien people, and sichuanese are ba-shu people (an extension of their logic was used as an example on sichuan). Baiyue is a diverse group, just because a tribe is yue doesn't mean its automatically vietnamese. Vietnam = Lac viet (Long lac quan) + au viet (Au co).

Step8) They always talk about Han vs Yue. Funny....Han chinese is a modern ethnic concept. Baiyue is not a race, its a generic term for a diverse group of people. If Baiyue was one race, then zhuang, dai, miao, yao, li, maonan, vietnamese, etc....would go under a single panethnic label or a general umbrella. Han vs yue = comparing apples and bananas

Basically, the vietnamese jump to conclusions and make silly remarks based on ancient locations. Liu Bang wasn't a northerner. In fact, he came from chu, the southermost warring state. The zhou dynasty was a collection of tribes. Vietnamese don't know what han chinese is and generally, they are wrong about china. This type of historiography is unacceptable. There is nothing wrong with cantonese, fujianese, having yue blood. It doesn't make them less chinese as northerners have steppe and altaic genes too.

BTW, I've seen them using the term northern huaxia, lol. Huaxia were a confederation of tribes, but I don't think they spoke mandarin.

Conclusion: vietnamese are uneducated about china and don't know that much. They hate china so they make these claims. Cantonese and Fujianese are obssessed with northern ancestry so they have an identity crisis. This is sickening.

Fujianese and Cantonese are definitely not Tai-Kadai or Austronesian. Both belong to the Sino-Tibetan family.

Although Fujianese and Cantonese have a bit of Tai-Kadai or Austronesian admixture (very minimal), they are still considered Sino-Tibetan.

The provinces of Guangdong and Fujian had their own aborigines but the modern Cantonese and Fujianese are not pure descendants of the Yue aborigines in these two provinces.

In fact, the modern Cantonese and Fujianese are Han Chinese that invaded these 2 provinces and their contact with the Yue aborigine is minimal to none.

[mohistManiac]

Fujianese and Cantonese are definitely not Tai-Kadai or Austronesian. Both belong to the Sino-Tibetan family.

Although Fujianese and Cantonese have a bit of Tai-Kadai or Austronesian admixture (very minimal), they are still considered Sino-Tibetan.

The provinces of Guangdong and Fujian had their own aborigines but the modern Cantonese and Fujianese are not pure descendants of the Yue aborigines in these two provinces.

In fact, the modern Cantonese and Fujianese are Han Chinese that invaded these 2 provinces and their contact with the Yue aborigine is minimal to none.

You don't have to talk about Cantonese and Fujianese like all other Chinese have to stay away from them. There certainly is higher concentration of other countries intermixing with these areas of trade. There is nothing wrong with trade. But technically speaking that is all the Chinese eastern seaboard from Beijing to Hainan because of the simple waterway called the ocean. However people found very into the interior are also intermixed. From history we can tell people from the former Xi Xia area were Tanguts and the people must have found there way into the interior of China starting with Shanxi and Shaanxi.

Hanized natives...hanized outsiders, all hanized by the various dynasties that ultimately taught themselves to use the chopstick.

[cholonsaigon]

I hear that Southern Han are whiter than Northern Han because there no much shadow trees in Yellow River region ? Is exaclly?

[Andy Lau]

Yes, i heard of that stereotype.

I heard that in Beijing, the people there stereotype that the difference between a Sichuan people (Southern Chinese) vs. a Beijinger (Northern Chinese) is that the Sichuanese are short and very pale, while the Beijinger are tall and slightly tan (especially the men).

In Hong Kong, there is a stereotype that Shanghainese and Chiu Chow are Light skin... while the Hakka and Hoklo/Tanka people are tanned because they work(agriculture or fishing) under the sun.

In my opinion, i think the skin colour is diverse in both north and south. I met someone from Dongbei (the far north) and they are as dark as a filipino. But of course i have met a Donbbei person who was pale as well.

[cholonsaigon]

I find that a Sichuan people have very hight check-bones, face round . They are right?

I heard that the North people taller than South people because in the pass North people eat wheat , rice in the South. Protein of wheat is highter than 15 time to rice.
Today, the height of South people is the same North people in youth because cereal is not still the main food. Even Singapore youth is taller than Peking youth.

Edited by cholonsaigon, 01 October 2012 - 09:15 AM.

[bloodmerchant]

Here's the agricultural map of China, it does say something about the differences between the North and South.

[Trimac20]

Who cares? Be proud of whatever DNA you have. Or would you rather believe you are all descended from some mythical Yellow Emperor, just so you can feel part of some ancient civilisation? Well Iraqis have you beat, Mesopotamian culture is older and was more advanced than China anyway.

[YummYakitori]

Who cares? Be proud of whatever DNA you have. Or would you rather believe you are all descended from some mythical Yellow Emperor, just so you can feel part of some ancient civilisation? Well Iraqis have you beat, Mesopotamian culture is older and was more advanced than China anyway.

Might not be true. 16 Jiahu symbols in Henan Province of China have been found dating back to around 6600 BC - 2000 years older than the Mesopotamian language.

The world is a huge place. Not every single piece of artifact has been dug out. There are still millions and millions yet to be found.

[YummYakitori]

I find that a Sichuan people have very hight check-bones, face round . They are right?

I heard that the North people taller than South people because in the pass North people eat wheat , rice in the South. Protein of wheat is highter than 15 time to rice.
Today, the height of South people is the same North people in youth because cereal is not still the main food. Even Singapore youth is taller than Peking youth.

Not true either. In Singapore, our common stereotype is that, people who are PRC Citizens who recently migrated to Singapore are tall.

Singapore youth is taller than Peking youth? Maybe for some. Not all. I mean, from Singaporean youths I meet everyday, that's definitely not true.

[mohistManiac]

Might not be true. 16 Jiahu symbols in Henan Province of China have been found dating back to around 6600 BC - 2000 years older than the Mesopotamian language.

The world is a huge place. Not every single piece of artifact has been dug out. There are still millions and millions yet to be found.

He's talking about civilization, not just language. A person can come up with the oldest political site or city, another can come up with the oldest literary tradition, another with oldest ideology and law, oldest clothing, oldest bronze artifacts of gold jade or bronze, oldest concept of trade with surplus, but unless these come together there won't be much civilization to talk about. I just watch this movie called The Hobbit and they show the people inside the middle earth of many races like humans dwarves elves and hobbits. The elves had writing but had no city they were middle earth vagabonds, the humans had cities but no real literary culture and relied on dwarves for wealth, and the dwarves had wealth in their metal trade using mountains and mines but no writing or cities to designate home. Only the hobbits had civilization apparently because they had heavy literary culture, territory to call their own, and wealth within it to pass on.

[bonichang]

Not true either. In Singapore, our common stereotype is that, people who are PRC Citizens who recently migrated to Singapore are tall.

Singapore youth is taller than Peking youth? Maybe for some. Not all. I mean, from Singaporean youths I meet everyday, that's definitely not true.

The tall people are from the Shān​dōng province. I am sure it has got something to do with genes.