395 replies to this topic

[Kulong]

I've recently noticed that many people, be them Vietnamese, Cantonese, or others, tend to think that southern Han-Chinese (or at least Cantonese) are "Hanized" natives.

To my understanding, obviously the Han culture (and people) originated up north around the Yellow River basin. When the Han expanded southwards, they assimilated other peoples into their own culture and it's very likely that they even interbred. I am assuming this is the same case with peoples in modern southern China. If so then modern Cantonese are just as much "native" as they are Han as their ancestors interbred.

Let's just look at the Hispanic population today, although some people remained purely native-American, some purely black and some purely European, many are mixed. You don't see these mixed people claiming to be solely one side or another.

In any case, I would just like to hear the justification of Vietnamese and some Cantonese who claim that southern Han-Chinese are "Hanized" natives instead of mix of Han and natives.

Edited by Kulong, 21 December 2005 - 03:58 PM.

[lobster]

I fail to recognise any Cantonese who do so. Only a few Vietnamese.

[Kulong]

I fail to recognise any Cantonese who do so. Only a few Vietnamese.

Oh no?

FYI, like 99.999999% of the ethnic Cantonese, my family is the product of the ethnic re-engineering---spanning several centuries---of Han Chinese and the aborigines indigenous to the Guandong province.

http://www.chinahist...opic=7228&st=15

[lobster]

Well, I guess it's not impossible to find some anomalies in a big sample of like 100 million people...

But certainly, the strongest proponents of this "theory" are Vietnamese...

Edited by lobster, 20 December 2005 - 11:23 AM.

[Kulong]

Well, I guess it's not impossible to find some anomalies in a big sample of like 100 million people...

But certainly, the strongest proponents of this "theory" are Vietnamese...

That's why I said "...namely Vietnamese and a few Cantonese,..."

Point is though, I want to know how they justify their theory.

Edited by Kulong, 20 December 2005 - 11:28 AM.

[lobster]

That's why I said "...namely Vietnamese and a few Cantonese,..."

Point is though, I want to know how they justify their theory.

...if we can call it a theory at all.

[Kulong]

...if we can call it a theory at all.

Well it's obvious I don't agree with them, but I just want to hear their POV.

[thankstoall]

I've recently noticed that many people, namely Vietnamese and a few Cantonese, tend to think that southern Han-Chinese (or at least Cantonese) are "Hanized" natives.

Hi gentleman

Can you address me any pronouncement that states all Vietnamese tend to think like what you just mention? Since you make clear between "Vietnamese" and "a few Cantonese", I suppose that you address all Vietnamese? If it does not, please, make clear your statement.

A part from this, would you please give me your source that addresses any Vietnamese who thinks of that (southern Han-Chinese (or at least Cantonese) are "Hanized" natives)?

[qrasy]

Why should we care if anyone is mixed or not. No one can deny admixture.
No one can deny North or Central Chinese are not mix either.

Depends on how you mean "mixture".
Your mother and your father are not the same, so you are mixed.

A part from this, would you please give me your source that addresses any Vietnamese who thinks of that (southern Han-Chinese (or at least Cantonese) are "Hanized" natives)?

See past discussions with the person who calls himself "正宗越人", or nguoiVietChanhTong. You can search for his last posts.

[Yun]

We have had our share of Pan-Yue nationalists here who claim that most of the south Chinese are Yue descendants who have been ruled and oppressed by a foreign state and culture ever since the Han dynasty.

[Lin Duanwen]

The Pan-Yue nationalists who claim that most of the South-Chinese/Cantonese are Yue descendants because they hope that South China would break away from China to form a new "Nanyue" state with Vietnam. Fortunately most Cantonese still view themselves as Chinese/Han and not Yue.

[Kulong]

Still no takers from the Pan-Yue nationalists to accept this challenge eh?

[thankstoall]

Hi all

Why should we care if anyone is mixed or not. No one can deny admixture.
No one can deny North or Central Chinese are not mix either.

Depends on how you mean "mixture".
Your mother and your father are not the same, so you are mixed.

I have no different viewpoint on this.

See past discussions with the person who calls himself "正宗越人", or nguoiVietChanhTong. You can search for his last posts.

So is it an individual view point? Are the majority of Vietnamese here the so-called Pan-Yue nationalists?

Are Nguyen Trong Cam, Metronomad, Thehelp, Nguye^~n, TrueViet, Zhangtaiyou, me and others the "Pan-Yue nationalists"?

We have had our share of Pan-Yue nationalists here who claim that most of the south Chinese are Yue descendants who have been ruled and oppressed by a foreign state and culture ever since the Han dynasty.

How many persons? Is/Are he/they representative(s) of Vietnamese? Are there any Vietnamese political party or group declare themselves as "Pan-Yue nationalists" to propose the so-called “Pan-Yue nationalism”? Is the so-called “Pan-Yue nationalism” personal views or a theory, a doctrine?

The Pan-Yue nationalists who claim that most of the South-Chinese/Cantonese are Yue descendants because they hope that South China would break away from China to form a new "Nanyue" state with Vietnam. Fortunately most Cantonese still view themselves as Chinese/Han and not Yue.

Can I take some individual opinions in the topics like “Vietnamese lose Han identity” or “Which country will merge with China” to announce that there is a theory called “Pan-Han Expansionism" or "Sino-Neo-Fascism"?

Still no takers from the Pan-Yue nationalists to accept this challenge eh?

Glad to meet you gentleman

I made separate questions for you to make clear whether the so-called “Pan-Yue nationalist” is an individual opinion or a theory. I would be pleased if you make clear your statement.

Can you address me any pronouncement that states all Vietnamese tend to think like what you just mention? Since you make clear between "Vietnamese" and "a few Cantonese", I suppose that you address all Vietnamese? If it does not, please, make clear your statement.

Please, make your simple calculation understandable.

Regards

Edited by thankstoall, 21 December 2005 - 01:09 PM.

[esse]

Still no takers from the Pan-Yue nationalists to accept this challenge eh?

Well, why don't you POINTEDLY ask the very person who expressed such view the question rather than muddle the water with this bait?

Who are these Pan-Tue nationalists? Another strawman of your bigotry?

[Nguyen-Trong Cam]

I've recently noticed that many people, namely Vietnamese and a few Cantonese, tend to think that southern Han-Chinese (or at least Cantonese) are "Hanized" natives.

To my understanding, obviously the Han culture (and people) originated up north around the Yellow River basin. When the Han expanded southwards, they assimilated other peoples into their own culture and it's very likely that they even interbred. I am assuming this is the same case with peoples in modern southern China. If so then modern Cantonese are just as much "native" as they are Han as their ancestors interbred.

Let's just look at the Hispanic population today, although some people remained purely native-American, some purely black and some purely European, many are mixed. You don't see these mixed people claiming to be solely one side or another.

In any case, I would just like to hear the justification of Vietnamese and some Cantonese who claim that southern Han-Chinese are "Hanized" natives instead of mix of Han and natives.

I have heard the argument that massive immigration, especially during the Tang Dynasty, has turned Cantonese to predominantly Huaxia. Subsequently, I read in Keith Weller Taylor's The Birth of Vietnam censuses from the Han Dynasty to the Tang Dynasty that originally Jiao Shi was 2 times more populous than what is now Quangxi and Quangdong. Then the Tang census showed in Quangdong a population that was roughly equal to that of Jiao Shi. Also a rebellion in Guizhou and Guangxi resulted in 100 thousands aboriginal heads rolled, depleting a chunk of their population. Because of Quangdong having better land, it probably attracted more immigrants. I tend to think that in this province, there may be a better than 50% proportion of Huaxia descendants.
BTW, Jiao Shi presented a totally different scenario. Maybe that was why even the influential Tang decided to cease considering it a province as the ones immediately North of it, but call it a protectorate instead.
As to the word Hanized or Sinification, I think it tends to have a cultural connotation. And if so, then it is safe to say that the Lingnan is very Sinicized.

Edited by Nguyen-Trong Cam, 21 December 2005 - 03:53 PM.