57 replies to this topic

[Ashura]

Zunjing de Ashura My Liege ,

Hmm, are you sure that it would be considered illegitimate to initially make Li Shimin the Crown Prince? I recall from a reading that Tang Gaozu did not officially proclaim who would be the Crown Prince until a month after his ascension to the throne. This delay was due to the fact that he was contemplating over whether or not to create Li Shimin as the Crown Prince. He eventually decided against that idea. However, the fact that he would consider making his second son the heir proved that some officials would support this decision as the legitimate one. Of course, according to the law of primogeniture, Li JianCheng was automatically the heir. With this in mind, I wonder what Li Yuan was thinking when he promised the throne to Li Shimin in the first place. Li Yuan was certainly sending mixed signals to his sons.

Xie Xie,

Li Yuan did not promise the throne to Li Shi Min. There's no way he could do that not only due to the imperial rule, but Li Jian Cheng had his own power base, which he estbalished during the war. He did contribute to the empire too. "Tang Gaozu did not officially proclaim who would be the Crown Prince until a month after his ascension to the throne". You mean the throne of Tang dyansty or Tang kingdom? Li Yuan was originally King of Tang serving under Sui. Li Jian Cheng was the heir by default in both case. Looking at ZZTJ, there is a passage that says Li Yuan wanted to make Li Shi Min his heir. I think this is dubious and should be seen as propaganda for Li Shi Min.

[Rong Qin Wang]

The charge that Li Jiancheng poisoned Li Shimin is non-conclusive, at best biased, and at worse fabricated. Shimin didn't die, decribed to have had the physical symptom that could have been caused by typical food poisoning amongst other things.

Neither is the claim that Li Jiancheng and Li Yuanji "initiated" the conflict conclusive. Prior to Xuanwu incident, the only official event that set light on the rivalry was ... Li Shimin being reprimanded by Li Yuan for vying for the throne.

The theory that Li Yuan was a strong emperor in control is also questionable. During this internal conflict, the emperor's court was irrelevant compared to the rivalling partisants. Once Shimin prevailed, Li Yuan became, for lack of better word, a puppet, whose fate rested entirely in his son's hand.

Zunjing de Metronomad,

Hmm, from the official sources that I have read, Li JianCheng and Li Yuanji had tried to poison Li Shimin on two occasions; one through poisonous wine during a banquet, the other by tricking him into riding a wild horse.

It was also clearly stated that Li JianCheng and Li Yuanji initiated all the fightings by becoming extremely weary of Lin Shimin’s growing power and popularity. Li Shimin was reprimanded by his father for vying for the throne only because it was a setup by his brothers and his father’s concubines. Li Shimin got on the bad side of his stepmothers by declining their request(s) to make their family members high court officials.

I highly doubt that Tang Gaozu was a strong Emperor in control of everything. Li Yuan’s role in history have usually been undermined as others considered Li Shimin as the co-founder of the Tang Dynasty. However, Tang Gaozu deserved some credits on his own; therefore, he was definitely not a useless Emperor. Well, some sources indicated that Li Shimin forced his father to abdicate in his favor; however, I really don’t believe it since there is no need for him to do so. I mean all the contenders were eliminated and his father was probably frightened to death after Li Shimin’s fratricide. Hence, Li Shimin’s position was secured.

Well, this was all the information that I have gotten from a book. I am just wondering if you would deem these as reliable? Are you having some speculations that history had been altered in favor of Li Shimin? Or have I thought that I have read an official history book, but it is really just partly fictional?

Xie Xie,

[esse]

Zunjing de Metronomad,

Hmm, from the official sources that I have read, Li JianCheng and Li Yuanji had tried to poison Li Shimin on two occasions; one through poisonous wine during a banquet, the other by tricking him into riding a wild horse.

The horse-riding trap was just as impossible to prove. Shimin was a renounced horseman, at one point or another, he must have been familiar with untamed horses

It was also clearly stated that Li JianCheng and Li Yuanji initiated all the fightings by becoming extremely weary of Lin Shimin’s growing power and popularity. Li Shimin was reprimanded by his father for vying for the throne only because it was a setup by his brothers and his father’s concubines. Li Shimin got on the bad side of his stepmothers by declining their request(s) to make their family members high court officials.

The "slanderous harem" charge is conspicuously similar to Yang Guang's plot to unseat Yang Yong. It could have happened, sure, but it could also be made up/exaggerated in attempts to repaint Li Shimin as passive victim of his "evil" brothers. We do not know what really happened (one-sided hear-says aren't evidents), we only know Li Yuan scolded Li Shimin for harboring haughty followers hungry for power and influence (Du Yuhui, Feng Xuanling, et al), and his own naked ambition, to paraphrase, "you think you can make the son-of-heaven by your own will?".

Getting back to the point, it was in Jiancheng's interest to maintain status-quo, Shimin's interest to upset it. Furthermore, their same-mother younger brother, Yuanji (meaning he too had a stake in the succession struggle because he would have been next in line) decided to side with Jiancheng rather than Shimin (it would have served Yuanji better to upset status-quo, assuming he was interested in power) suggested that Shimin's behaviors prior to Xuanwu gate were more brazen than the glossed over version by his own historians.

From Jiancheng's point of view, he did not need to get Shimin killed, he only need to remove Shimin from his military command to lessen the risk of losing in case of civil war. That was what happened. Jiancheng lobbied to have Shimin's men tranferred to Yuanji's command in a campaign against Dujue. This directly triggerred the Xuanwu Gate incident, when, out of desperation, Shimin chased and killed Jiancheng with his own hand. History could have been written entirely different had Jiancheng survived that single desperate arrow

This episode left more than a hint of guilt in Shimin's conscience that showed in his selection of his own successor.

I highly doubt that Tang Gaozu was a strong Emperor in control of everything. Li Yuan’s role in history have usually been undermined as others considered Li Shimin as the co-founder of the Tang Dynasty. However, Tang Gaozu deserved some credits on his own; therefore, he was definitely not a useless Emperor. Well, some sources indicated that Li Shimin forced his father to abdicate in his favor; however, I really don’t believe it since there is no need for him to do so. I mean all the contenders were eliminated and his father was probably frightened to death after Li Shimin’s fratricide. Hence, Li Shimin’s position was secured.

Well, this was all the information that I have gotten from a book. I am just wondering if you would deem these as reliable? Are you having some speculations that history had been altered in favor of Li Shimin? Or have I thought that I have read an official history book, but it is really just partly fictional?

Xie Xie,

I wouldn't call it fictional. Facts-cherry-picking and spinning is not a modern invention.

[Rong Qin Wang]

Li Yuan did not promise the throne to Li Shi Min. There's no way he could do that not only due to the imperial rule, but Li Jian Cheng had his own power base, which he estbalished during the war. He did contribute to the empire too. "Tang Gaozu did not officially proclaim who would be the Crown Prince until a month after his ascension to the throne". You mean the throne of Tang dyansty or Tang kingdom? Li Yuan was originally King of Tang serving under Sui. Li Jian Cheng was the heir by default in both case. Looking at ZZTJ, there is a passage that says Li Yuan wanted to make Li Shi Min his heir. I think this is dubious and should be seen as propaganda for Li Shi Min.

Zunjing de Ashura My Liege ,

Hmm, are you sure of this? Based on some official sources that I have read, Li Yuan promised the throne to Li Shimin on two occasions. The traditional view was that Li Shimin was able to persuade his father into staging a rebellion by tricking him into sleeping with Sui Yangdi’s concubines. Right before the capture of Chang An, Li Yuan promised the throne to Li Shimin if his son was able to complete his mission. Being a gifted military commander, Li Shimin launched many successful campaigns resulting in capturing Chang An in 617. However, one year later, when Li Yuan ascended to the throne, he conveniently forgot that he had promised to make Li Shimin the heir. His main reason for creating Li JianCheng as the heir was to avoid disputes over succession.

Despite founding the Tang Dynasty in 618, the throne was quite unstable as there were a few other rebel leaders also making claims for the throne. In 621, Li Yuan quickly dispatched Li Shimin to fight many military campaigns against all the rebel leaders. The was the second time Li Yuan promised the throne to Li Shimin if he had the ability to reunify the whole Empire under the Tang regime. I really have no idea what this king was thinking right now?! I mean he already had a Crown Prince. How can he depose the original Crown Prince just because a younger prince had contributed more to the state? Of course, Li Shimin succeeded in defeating all the remnants and reunified the country; however, not surprisingly, Li Yuan could not keep his promise since he was too cowardly to go against traditions.

Were you not aware of these two occasions where Li Shimin was twice promised the throne, but twice got the raw end of the deal?

Well, Li Yuan’s three sons all made a lot of contributions for the Empire; however, Li Shimin was much more talented and made the most contributions.

You are right; when Li Yuan placed Yang You on the throne as the puppet Emperor, he himself was also made Tang Wang with Li JianCheng as the heir apparent, Li Shimin as Qin Gong, and Li Yuanji as Qi Gong. Of course, being the heir apparent, Li JianCheng would be automatically created as the Crown Prince when Li Yuan became Emperor. However, Li Yuan had always remembered his promise to Li Shimin; hence, he contemplated on what he had to do after ascending to the throne. Apparently, Li Yuan felt that he had to take care of his eldest son; hence, Li JianCheng was created as Crown Prince instead.

These were the “facts” that I have read from two books. Do you think they are unreliable?

Xie Xie,

[Rong Qin Wang]

The horse-riding trap was just as impossible to prove. Shimin was a renounced horseman, at one point or another, he must have been familiar with untamed horses

The "slanderous harem" charge is conspicuously similar to Yang Guang's plot to unseat Yang Yong. It could have happened, sure, but it could also be made up/exaggerated in attempts to repaint Li Shimin as passive victim of his "evil" brothers. We do not know what really happened (one-sided hear-says aren't evidents), we only know Li Yuan scolded Li Shimin for harboring haughty followers hungry for power and influence (Du Yuhui, Feng Xuanling, et al), and his own naked ambition, to paraphrase, "you think you can make the son-of-heaven by your own will?".

Getting back to the point, it was in Jiancheng's interest to maintain status-quo, Shimin's interest to upset it. Furthermore, their same-mother younger brother, Yuanji (meaning he too had a stake in the succession struggle because he would have been next in line) decided to side with Jiancheng rather than Shimin (it would have served Yuanji better to upset status-quo, assuming he was interested in power) suggested that Shimin's behaviors prior to Xuanwu gate were more brazen than the glossed over version by his own historians.

From Jiancheng's point of view, he did not need to get Shimin killed, he only need to remove Shimin from his military command to lessen the risk of losing in case of civil war. That was what happened. Jiancheng lobbied to have Shimin's men tranferred to Yuanji's command in a campaign against Dujue. This directly triggerred the Xuanwu Gate incident, when, out of desperation, Shimin chased and killed Jiancheng with his own hand. History could have been written entirely different had Jiancheng survived that single desperate arrow

This episode left more than a hint of guilt in Shimin's conscience that showed in his selection of his own successor.
I wouldn't call it fictional. Facts-cherry-picking and spinning is not a modern invention.

Zunjing de Metronomad,

Yeah, since Li Shimin was a renounced horseman, it seems rather unlikely that his brothers would use a wild horse to kill him. From what I have read, the horse-riding trick was a complete failure since Li Shimin did not have too much trouble taming the horse. However, the poison wine was almost a success since Li Shimin coughed up blood afterward.

Why do you think these two incidents were unproven?

Yeah, with an old Emperor and younger concubines, the slanderous rumors between princes and concubines were quite common. Do you think the image of Li Shimin being a passive victim of his two evil brothers is one-sided hear-says?

I personally don’t think it would have served Li Yuanji better if he decided to support Li Shimin instead of Li JianCheng since Li Shimin was more talented and ambitious. I have always felt that Li Yuanji had his own agenda. He wanted to make an alliance with Li JianCheng to get rid of the more popular Li Shimin. After this was done, he would instantly turn his back on Li JianCheng and snatch the position of Crown Prince. IMO, Li Yuanji was by far the worst out of Li Yuan’s three principal sons.

Well, I think the rivalry between Li JianCheng and Li Shimin left no room for anyone to survive as the second best. Hence, Li JianCheng would have killed Li Shimin whenever he had the chance. I surmise the victory at the Xuan Wu gate proved that Li Shimin was by far superior to his brothers.

From the book that I have read, during the Xuan Wu gate incident, Li Shimin was so reluctant to make any moves. Li Yuanji was personally shooting arrows after arrows at Li Shimin. Luckily, Li Shimin managed to escape all of them. During the turmoil, Li Shimin placed an arrow in his bow preparing to shoot it at Li Yuanji; however, he still could not bear aiming at his younger brother. Then, the black face general (Sorry, but I forgot his English name) snapped Li Shimin’s arm causing the arrow to fly in Li Yuanji’s position. Li Yuanji was able to dodge this arrow, but it killed Li JianCheng instead. Afterward, Li Yuanji went down on his knee to beg Li Shimin for forgiveness. However, when Li Shimin was not looking, Li Yuanji tried to ambush him from behind, but ended up running into Li Shimin’s sword and was killed himself.

How do you feel about this summary of the Xuan Wu gate incident? Was it even remotely closed to what you have imagined?

I have another question. How did Li Shimin’s guilt for the Xuan Wu gate incident show during his own selection of the Crown Prince?

Xie Xie,

[Ashura]

Zunjing de Ashura My Liege ,

Hmm, are you sure of this? Based on some official sources that I have read, Li Yuan promised the throne to Li Shimin on two occasions. The traditional view was that Li Shimin was able to persuade his father into staging a rebellion by tricking him into sleeping with Sui Yangdi’s concubines. Right before the capture of Chang An, Li Yuan promised the throne to Li Shimin if his son was able to complete his mission. Being a gifted military commander, Li Shimin launched many successful campaigns resulting in capturing Chang An in 617. However, one year later, when Li Yuan ascended to the throne, he conveniently forgot that he had promised to make Li Shimin the heir. His main reason for creating Li JianCheng as the heir was to avoid disputes over succession.

Despite founding the Tang Dynasty in 618, the throne was quite unstable as there were a few other rebel leaders also making claims for the throne. In 621, Li Yuan quickly dispatched Li Shimin to fight many military campaigns against all the rebel leaders. The was the second time Li Yuan promised the throne to Li Shimin if he had the ability to reunify the whole Empire under the Tang regime. I really have no idea what this king was thinking right now?! I mean he already had a Crown Prince. How can he depose the original Crown Prince just because a younger prince had contributed more to the state? Of course, Li Shimin succeeded in defeating all the remnants and reunified the country; however, not surprisingly, Li Yuan could not keep his promise since he was too cowardly to go against traditions.

Were you not aware of these two occasions where Li Shimin was twice promised the throne, but twice got the raw end of the deal?

Well, Li Yuan’s three sons all made a lot of contributions for the Empire; however, Li Shimin was much more talented and made the most contributions.

You are right; when Li Yuan placed Yang You on the throne as the puppet Emperor, he himself was also made Tang Wang with Li JianCheng as the heir apparent, Li Shimin as Qin Gong, and Li Yuanji as Qi Gong. Of course, being the heir apparent, Li JianCheng would be automatically created as the Crown Prince when Li Yuan became Emperor. However, Li Yuan had always remembered his promise to Li Shimin; hence, he contemplated on what he had to do after ascending to the throne. Apparently, Li Yuan felt that he had to take care of his eldest son; hence, Li JianCheng was created as Crown Prince instead.

These were the “facts” that I have read from two books. Do you think they are unreliable?

Xie Xie,

I know where the "promises" came from, I've read them myself in ZZTJ. Problem is such promises were not the best of source, as we know Li Shi Min killed his brothers and got the throne for himself. He probably did a lot other stuff to reduce opposition as possible, and writting the "promises" in was a common trick.

[Yun]

From the book that I have read, during the Xuan Wu gate incident, Li Shimin was so reluctant to make any moves. Li Yuanji was personally shooting arrows after arrows at Li Shimin. Luckily, Li Shimin managed to escape all of them. During the turmoil, Li Shimin placed an arrow in his bow preparing to shoot it at Li Yuanji; however, he still could not bear aiming at his younger brother. Then, the black face general (Sorry, but I forgot his English name) snapped Li Shimin’s arm causing the arrow to fly in Li Yuanji’s position. Li Yuanji was able to dodge this arrow, but it killed Li JianCheng instead. Afterward, Li Yuanji went down on his knee to beg Li Shimin for forgiveness. However, when Li Shimin was not looking, Li Yuanji tried to ambush him from behind, but ended up running into Li Shimin’s sword and was killed himself.

How do you feel about this summary of the Xuan Wu gate incident? Was it even remotely closed to what you have imagined?

I am quite sure none of this was based on historical sources. Sui-Tang Yanyi, maybe?

[Rong Qin Wang]

I know where the "promises" came from, I've read them myself in ZZTJ. Problem is such promises were not the best of source, as we know Li Shi Min killed his brothers and got the throne for himself. He probably did a lot other stuff to reduce opposition as possible, and writting the "promises" in was a common trick.

Zunjing de Ashura My Liege ,

Hmm, are you trying to say that a truly virtuous person could never kill his siblings or any blood-related relatives under any circumstances? Well, I am just horrible with abbreviations! Hence, can you please spell out the full title for ZZTJ just for this one time?

Do you doubt Li Shimin’s character just because was victorious at the Xuan Wu gate incident, murdered his brothers, and eventually ascended to the throne? I kind of don’t understand where this is coming from. I mean it is extremely reasonable to question everything you read, especially since history books were written by the victors. However, do we really have any good reasons to suspect that Tang Taizong altered some facts in official records to redeem his bad deeds?

Did not all the Chinese governments heavily control historical documents and the printing press? If this is the case, then what was so special regarding the Tang Dynasty, and especially Li Shimin?

Xie Xie,

[Rong Qin Wang]

I am quite sure none of this was based on historical sources. Sui-Tang Yanyi, maybe?

Zunjing de Yun the Sage-King,

Hmm, I surmise this version of the Xuan Wu gate incident portrayed Li Shimin in such a favorable light that this was pretty laughable. Hehehe! So, are you sure that this was a fictional account of the Xuan Wu gate incident? Nah, this part was not from Sui Tang Yan Yi since I am already aware of the historical invalidities of that novel. This was actually a summary of a segment I have read from a book called “Tang Taizong Li Shimin.” Have you read this book yet? It described Li Shimin as the perfect king and a passive victim of his evil brothers. The feuds among the three brothers began long before the forging of the Tang Dynasty. Hence, it should not be a surprise that they were willing to kill each other for the throne. However, Li Shimin never made the first move.

Xie Xie,

[Ashura]

Zunjing de Ashura My Liege ,

Hmm, are you trying to say that a truly virtuous person could never kill his siblings or any blood-related relatives under any circumstances? Well, I am just horrible with abbreviations! Hence, can you please spell out the full title for ZZTJ just for this one time?

Do you doubt Li Shimin’s character just because was victorious at the Xuan Wu gate incident, murdered his brothers, and eventually ascended to the throne? I kind of don’t understand where this is coming from. I mean it is extremely reasonable to question everything you read, especially since history books were written by the victors. However, do we really have any good reasons to suspect that Tang Taizong altered some facts in official records to redeem his bad deeds?

Did not all the Chinese governments heavily control historical documents and the printing press? If this is the case, then what was so special regarding the Tang Dynasty, and especially Li Shimin?

Xie Xie,

Virtuous? Now you are in my territory. i never doubt that Li Shi Min was a great emperor, and his killing of his borthers and forcing his father down the throne were justifiable only in a political sense. Romulus killed even his twin brother Remus and it has been said that it was a virtuous act. Yes evil deeds are justifiable in the political world. ZZTJ is Zi Zhi Tong Jian.

I don't doubt Li Shi Min' character but I dout what's been written in the books. It was not necessary for Li Shi Min to alter history; his subordinates would do that for him. There was no reason for Li Yuan to make Li Shi Min heir. The said promises seem like a ratonalization rather that a legitimacte base. Even Li Shi Min was somehow forced to make Li Zhi his heir, who was not the first choice. If Li Yuan wanted to make Li Shi Min heir, he would not ask but stripped Li Jian Cheng his position right away. Once such question was asked there would be no point of return as the matter was just too important. Li Shi Min would not have the chance to refuse. That's why the promises are dubious.

Most Chinese classical sources about the lives of emperors are not reliable.

[Rong Qin Wang]

Virtuous? Now you are in my territory. i never doubt that Li Shi Min was a great emperor, and his killing of his borthers and forcing his father down the throne were justifiable only in a political sense. Romulus killed even his twin brother Remus and it has been said that it was a virtuous act. Yes evil deeds are justifiable in the political world. ZZTJ is Zi Zhi Tong Jian.

I don't doubt Li Shi Min' character but I dout what's been written in the books. It was not necessary for Li Shi Min to alter history; his subordinates would do that for him. There was no reason for Li Yuan to make Li Shi Min heir. The said promises seem like a ratonalization rather that a legitimacte base. Even Li Shi Min was somehow forced to make Li Zhi his heir, who was not the first choice. If Li Yuan wanted to make Li Shi Min heir, he would not ask but stripped Li Jian Cheng his position right away. Once such question was asked there would be no point of return as the matter was just too important. Li Shi Min would not have the chance to refuse. That's why the promises are dubious.

Most Chinese classical sources about the lives of emperors are not reliable.

Zunjing de Ashura My Liege ,

Well, I am happy to have hit your territory! That way, we can generate more discussions! Hehehe!

Hmm, I have a slightly different view on Li Shimin. I know he was a wonderful Emperor; however, I seriously doubt that he was the greatest Emperor of Chinese History like others have raved for him. He certainly was not the best Emperor. However, I never have a shadow of a doubt that his fratricide was not justified! You are right; the definition of “virtuous” in the political world is completely different than the regular definition. Here is a quote I found online regarding King Taejong of the Korean Joseon Dynasty: “King Taejong, the third monarch of the Choson Kingdom (reign: 1401- 1418), was decidedly ruthless in seizing and maintaining his power. For a superb nation builder, however, such characteristics are not regarded as a drawback but a rare virtue.” Even though we are not discussing Korean History here, the same concept can really apply to any political leaders; ancient or modern.

Hmm, I surmise we have reasons to somewhat doubt Li Shimin’s character since not all princes can bring themselves to actually kill their brothers. Yeah, an Emperor did not really have to do anything. All he had to do was to dictate all the instructions to his subordinates. Of course, they would want to glorify their leaders as it was also in their best interests.

I agree there is not really a good reason why Li Yuan would want to make Li Shimin his heir. That is why I have always doubted the real capabilities of Li Yuan.

How was Li Shimin forced to make Li Zhi the Crown Prince? This was because Li Zhi was the only surviving son of Empress Zhangsun; thus, he would be the next Crown Prince by default. This was the regulation for the Tang Dynasty; however, I find it so ridiculous! Tang Taizong had 10 other sons; nevertheless, everyone acted like he only had the three sons born by Empress Zhangsun. I know she was such a virtuous Empress, but that is no reason to exclude other sons from succession. Even Li Shimin could not have defied social conventions by creating his third son born by a concubine the Crown Prince, whom he felt would have made a much more capable Emperor.

So, you think the promises were dubious because Li Yuan was not stupid enough to back out of a decision that was deemed as the most appropriate one?

Xie Xie,

[Ashura]

Li Shi Min wanted to make Li Ke the heir but the ministers opposed to that. The promises are dubious because no one in the right mind would ask such thing. If he wanted to he would make Li Shi Min heir anyway. Asking is really asking for trouble.

[Rong Qin Wang]

Zunjing de Metronomad,

Thank you for your compliment; however, I really don’t seem to know everything as it can only be a dream for me! Hehehe!

I am so sorry I have asked so many insipid questions that irritate you! Of course, I can always look for books and then read them myself, but that is not the best way for me to learn. I am less fortunate than a lot of the members here, who are fluent in Chinese. Other than English, I am only fluent in Vietnamese. Hence, I have to rely heavily on the Vietnamese-translated texts. You know, one cannot even completely trust primary sources. Hence, translated texts are even less reliable! If I can just believe everything I read, then there is no need to generate any types of discussions regarding anything! I come to CHF because I hope to gain an abundant amount of knowledge! Sometime I will ask questions because I really have no clue what you guys are talking about. Other times I will ask questions regarding the validity of some historical sources since history is a very delicate subject as books were usually written by victors and records could be easily altered. Besides, it is always good to have discussions. That way, one can be aware of the different viewpoints and circumstances.

Since I am illiterate in Chinese, I really have no right to deem any sources as reliable or vice versa. Hence, I really have to depend on others. That is why asking questions is vital for me!

Anyway, I apologize profusely if I may have aggravated you in any way since that definitely was not my intention at all! I know sometimes it may seem that I am being too meticulous and asking small detailed questions; however, this is only because I want to know all the possible information before arriving at a conclusion. If this had, has, or will have annoyed other members, I am really sorry, but this curiosity is ultimately coming from my passion for Chinese History. I am not saying that others don’t have the same kind of passion; however, this is how I will show my eagerness to learn.

Sorry again,
Minh Giao

[Rong Qin Wang]

Li Shi Min wanted to make Li Ke the heir but the ministers opposed to that. The promises are dubious because no one in the right mind would ask such thing. If he wanted to he would make Li Shi Min heir anyway. Asking is really asking for trouble.

Zunjing de Ashura My Liege,

Yeah, Li Shimin insisted on replacing Li Zhi with Li Ke because he felt that his third son would make a much more determined Emperor. However, this consideration was strongly opposed by the influential prime minister Zhangsun Wuji, who was the uncle of Li Zhi. Despite minor opposition(s), Li Zhi eventually succeeded Li Shimin as the third Tang Emperor. However, Zhangsun Wuji bore a deep grudge toward Li Ke, and had him unjustly executed for treason just four years after Tang Taizong passed away. By the way, do you think Li Ke would have done a good job at governing the country and continued the prosperity of Zhen Guan?

Yeah, I surmise it would really make sense for an Emperor to not leak out the news to anyone if he decided to go against social conventions in naming the second son the Crown Prince. That is why I really doubt if Li Yuan was actually a competent Emperor in control of the situation(s). The indecisiveness of many Emperors would be the main reason for rebellions and unnecessary feuds.

Xie Xie,

[Yun]

Yeah, Li Shimin insisted on replacing Li Zhi with Li Ke because he felt that his third son would make a much more determined Emperor.

Actually, the official record is that Li Shimin wanted Li Ke to be the next emperor because Li Ke's mother was a daughter of Sui Yangdi and therefore enjoyed greater prestige than Empress Zhangsun.