57 replies to this topic

[Rong Qin Wang]

Actually, the official record is that Li Shimin wanted Li Ke to be the next emperor because Li Ke's mother was a daughter of Sui Yangdi and therefore enjoyed greater prestige than Empress Zhangsun.

Zunjing de Yun the Sage-King,

Are you serious regarding the above statement being an official record? I knew Li Ke was a maternal grandson of Sui Yangdi, but I had no idea that Li Ke’s mother enjoyed greater prestige than Empress Zhangsun as she was just a major concubine. Is this the real reason why Tang Taizong was considering replacing Li Zhi with Li Ke? Can you further elaborate on this?

By the way, I have seen some TV Series regarding Tang Taizong and the Sui Princess having a love affair and the Sui Princess was the woman Tang Taizong loved the most. I know that such an affair would be fictional; however, I am just wondering if it was based on some historical truths?

Xie Xie,

[esse]

Hi,

Thank you for your compliment; however, I really don’t seem to know everything as it can only be a dream for me! Hehehe!

Be careful what you wish for, they say.

I am so sorry I have asked so many insipid questions that irritate you! Of course, I can always look for books and then read them myself, but that is not the best way for me to learn. I am less fortunate than a lot of the members here, who are fluent in Chinese. Other than English, I am only fluent in Vietnamese. Hence, I have to rely heavily on the Vietnamese-translated texts. You know, one cannot even completely trust primary sources. Hence, translated texts are even less reliable! If I can just believe everything I read, then there is no need to generate any types of discussions regarding anything!

I can't read Chinese other than a few odd characters either. Your English is better than mine, I reckon (your verbosity is second to none in this forum, based on average words per post )

There are quite a few good sources of Chinese history in Vietnamese, if one can wade through the the sea of sensationalism, cliches, and some of the most horrible translations (Check out Đường Sử Diễn Nghĩa, fantastically rich in facts, but stay away from rags like Đường Cung ## Hoàng triều). There are some great scholarly works in English, some of them are even available freely on the web, including wikipedia, which can be surprisingly terrific (check out its articles on Northern Qi's rulers). Depends on your particular interest and the level of your interest in said subject, we can help pointing you to relevant sources.

I don't know if somehow my sarcastic intend went missing in the scolding tone , I never advocate anyone to believe whatever that person read. Rather, make your own intepretation based on the bias-removed facts.

I come to CHF because I hope to gain an abundant amount of knowledge! Sometime I will ask questions because I really have no clue what you guys are talking about. Other times I will ask questions regarding the validity of some historical sources since history is a very delicate subject as books were usually written by victors and records could be easily altered. Besides, it is always good to have discussions. That way, one can be aware of the different viewpoints and circumstances.

Since I am illiterate in Chinese, I really have no right to deem any sources as reliable or vice versa. Hence, I really have to depend on others. That is why asking questions is vital for me!

Then ask, to the point, not beating around the bushes. I understand your pain having to construct an argument in way that intellectually doesn't make yourself appear a complete clueless idiot. Repeating cliches though (romanticized notions most oftenly are) that were being refuted usually only had the reversed effect (because it'd appear you challenged them with what they've already refuted, withthe implication that you didn't bother to read their argument fully in the first place).

Anyway, I apologize profusely if I may have aggravated you in any way since that definitely was not my intention at all! I know sometimes it may seem that I am being too meticulous and asking small detailed questions; however, this is only because I want to know all the possible information before arriving at a conclusion. If this had, has, or will have annoyed other members, I am really sorry, but this curiosity is ultimately coming from my passion for Chinese History. I am not saying that others don’t have the same kind of passion; however, this is how I will show my eagerness to learn.

Actually it's me who should be apologizing for over-reacting. I misinterpreted your intend (of which it must be said Yun judged correctly).

(Now, where's my soapbox gone?)

[esse]

Zunjing de Yun the Sage-King,

Are you serious regarding the above statement being an official record? I knew Li Ke was a maternal grandson of Sui Yangdi, but I had no idea that Li Ke’s mother enjoyed greater prestige than Empress Zhangsun as she was just a major concubine. Is this the real reason why Tang Taizong was considering replacing Li Zhi with Li Ke? Can you further elaborate on this?

By that he meant the Yangs was more prestigious than the Zhangsuns, which was a fact. Such "coup" though would be extremely unlikely because the Zhangsuns accumulated quite a bit political capital owed by Li Shimin. Though they later made the mistake of spending said capital on the Wu Zhao issue.

Li Shimin only even considerred that because he did not considered Li Zhi would be effectual as a ruler, and that would also resolve the friction between Li Zhi and his same-mother older brother Li Tai, who was demoted from consideration (for the throne) because Shimin assumed Tai would kill Zhi (again, due to sibling rivalry).

[Yun]

Rong Qin Wang,

Let me recommend you this thread I once made on two interesting concubines in Li Shimin's harem: http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=4614

(namely, Sui Yangdi's daughter and Li Yuanji's widow)

According to the Jiu Tangshu, Li Shimin felt that among his sons, Li Ke was most similar to himself in literary and martial talent. This statement does not appear in the Xin Tangshu biography of Li Ke. However, both Jiu Tangshu and Xin Tangshu also imply that besides Li Ke's talents, he enjoyed special prestige in the imperial court because of his mother. Now, if Sui Yangdi was really the tyrant and monster that he is now stereotyped as, then why would his daughter be so respected "both within and outside the country", as Xin Tangshu says? I would suggest that Sui Yangdi was still greatly respected for his achievements during Li Shimin's time, but was then the target of a deliberate smear campaign through the writing of the Sui Shu, so as to legitimize Li Yuan's rebellion against Sui Yangdi.

By the way, I have seen some TV Series regarding Tang Taizong and the Sui Princess having a love affair and the Sui Princess was the woman Tang Taizong loved the most. I know that such an affair would be fictional; however, I am just wondering if it was based on some historical truths?

There is no historical basis to this, although I have indeed seen one novel with such a storyline. The truth (according to Xin Tangshu) is that the woman Li Shimin loved the most was Li Yuanji's widow! After Empress Zhangsun's death, he even wanted to make her the new empress, but was dissuaded by Wei Zheng. If this other Concubine Yang had become empress, then the son she bore to Li Shimin, Li Ming, would have become Crown Prince.

[Rong Qin Wang]

Hi,
Be careful what you wish for, they say.

I can't read Chinese other than a few odd characters either. Your English is better than mine, I reckon (your verbosity is second to none in this forum, based on average words per post )

There are quite a few good sources of Chinese history in Vietnamese, if one can wade through the the sea of sensationalism, cliches, and some of the most horrible translations (Check out Đường Sử Diễn Nghĩa, fantastically rich in facts, but stay away from rags like Đường Cung ## Hoàng triều). There are some great scholarly works in English, some of them are even available freely on the web, including wikipedia, which can be surprisingly terrific (check out its articles on Northern Qi's rulers). Depends on your particular interest and the level of your interest in said subject, we can help pointing you to relevant sources.

I don't know if somehow my sarcastic intend went missing in the scolding tone , I never advocate anyone to believe whatever that person read. Rather, make your own intepretation based on the bias-removed facts.
Then ask, to the point, not beating around the bushes. I understand your pain having to construct an argument in way that intellectually doesn't make yourself appear a complete clueless idiot. Repeating cliches though (romanticized notions most oftenly are) that were being refuted usually only had the reversed effect (because it'd appear you challenged them with what they've already refuted, withthe implication that you didn't bother to read their argument fully in the first place).
Actually it's me who should be apologizing for over-reacting. I misinterpreted your intend (of which it must be said Yun judged correctly).

(Now, where's my soapbox gone?)

Zunjing de Metronomad,

Hehehe, I have a desire to know everything; hence, I really don’t mind if my wish comes true.

You know, I am just curious as to are you Vietnamese yourself? Well, I have learned that translating is a very hard thing to do as it can get so complicated! Therefore, I know that some of the Vietnamese-translated texts were horrible, but then again, people would probably just read them to learn more regarding Chinese History rather than using them as a good tool to learn how to write in Vietnamese fluently or even properly. I have always felt that Vietnamese translated texts are more accurate that the English translated ones since Vietnamese and Chinese share more of the common characteristics. In fact, before the French occupation, Vietnamese had the Chinese standard of writing. I have always used Wikipedia as one of the quickest sources of Chinese History available in English; however, it is certainly not too reliable!

I think everyone will just automatically form his/her own interpretations whether or not he/she may have realized it or not. After all, this is only human nature.

Hmm, I don’t mean to beat around the bushes; however, as you have noticed, I can be extremely wordy sometimes. I just cannot help it! I am just too meticulous at times. I want to know all the details. I don’t have any intentions of wanting to appear intelligently! The very first day, I have decided to post questions and comments in here, I was already well-prepared to been viewed as a clueless idiot since almost all the members in here are more knowledgeable than myself. The very first step I took when joining this forum was admitting that I am an absolute m****! Therefore, my verbosity is solely based on my personality rather than trying to make myself look good.

I sincerely hope you would not be unhappy regarding Brother Yun’s remark. We should all get along in here and learn/discuss Chinese History happily together.

Look, I will always continue to ask inane questions and make some redundant comments. You are always more than welcomed to scold at me anytime you think I am being overboard. I would then apologize for my stupid questions, and then we would start all over again. This may be a cycle just like the animal wheel. Hehehe!

Xie Xie,

[Rong Qin Wang]

By that he meant the Yangs was more prestigious than the Zhangsuns, which was a fact. Such "coup" though would be extremely unlikely because the Zhangsuns accumulated quite a bit political capital owed by Li Shimin. Though they later made the mistake of spending said capital on the Wu Zhao issue.

Li Shimin only even considerred that because he did not considered Li Zhi would be effectual as a ruler, and that would also resolve the friction between Li Zhi and his same-mother older brother Li Tai, who was demoted from consideration (for the throne) because Shimin assumed Tai would kill Zhi (again, due to sibling rivalry).

Zunjing de Metronomad,

Hmm, I see what you are saying. The Yang family was still actually royalty; hence, the Zhangsun could not possibly be on the same level as they were at best nobility. Well, the Zhangsun had better ties with Tang Taizong since they have constantly assisted the Emperor before and after the establishment of the Tang Dynasty. Yeah, I agree that Zhangsun Wuji’s clumsiness in dealing with the Wu Zetian’s issues ultimately led to the demise of his entire clan as well as his own reputation(s).

I surmise when Crown Prince Cheng Qian was deposed, by the law of primogeniture, Li Tai and Li Zhi took precedence over other princes for the throne as they were sons of Empress Zhangsun. Li Tai was clearly more favored by their father than Li Zhi. In fact, I really cannot understand why Li Tai was stripped of his title? I mean he went to his father and firmly stated that right before dying, he would execute his only son. That way, he can give the throne to Li Zhi. Apparently, some officials took this quote as a provocative statement to convince Tang Taizong to exclude Li Tai as a choice for Crown Prince. This was then discovered that Li Tai was just a big lie. This part is really confusing to me since I really cannot comprehend what Li Tai did that was so bad? This is something that I am just too stupid to understand. Therefore, can you please explain this to me if you have some spare time?

Xie Xie,

[vfrancis]

I voted yes.

[Rong Qin Wang]

Zunjing de Yun the Sage-King,

Yes, I have already read your post regarding the two forgotten concubines of Tang Taizong. In fact, this was the first post I have read in CHF. Thank you for reminding others of these two concubines. Indeed, most people are usually only aware of Empress Zhangsun and Wu Zetian, almost neglecting the rest of Tang Taizong’s harem. I just have one question. Did these two concubines actually have the same character name in Chinese? Or was this because the English translation does not really differentiate between the two Chinese characters?

You are right; we really must start reevaluating Sui Yangdi since these stereotypes may get out of hand. If Sui Yangdi was really the monster he appeared to be, then of course, any relatives of him would automatically get on the bad side of everyone since the smallest unit in Ancient China was the family rather than the individuals. If this was the case, I highly doubt Tang Taizong would have married Sui Yangdi’s daughter in the first place. If they were already married, then would not officials petition to have her deposed because she was the daughter of the dethroned Emperor? With this in mind, maybe Sui Yangdi was not as bad as he may have seemed to be. It is not hard to understand that in order to legitimize Li Yuan’s rebellions, Sui Yangdi would most likely be turned into an evil monster. I surmise it all comes down to “history books are always written by the winners.”

Hmm, it is kind of shocking to find out that according to Xin Tangshu, the woman Tang Taizong loved the most was Li Yuanji’s widow. Well, I guess it is not that surprising since he did spare her life after the Xuan Wu gate incident.

You know, you have hit a topic that I have always wanted to discuss. If an Empress died at a relatively young age, it was only common for the Emperor to promote another concubine to the position of Empress, head of the Rear Palace. If this was the case, then who would be the Crown Prince? I know that when an Empress got deposed, then her son would also be eliminated from succession. However, what if the deceased Empress passed away due to illness, just like Empress Zhangsun? Of course, her three sons would still remain legitimate heirs, taking precedence over other Princes to succeed the throne. Would this still be the case if Li Yuanji’s widow was elevated to the position of Empress? Her son, Cao Wang Li Ming, was only the 14th Prince and the youngest. Since Tang Taizong would have a total of two Empresses during his reign, would the three sons of Empress Zhangsun and the son of Li Yuanji’s widow all be considered as “blood brothers?” Therefore, age would be the deciding factor on who would be Crown Prince. Since Li Ming was younger than all three sons of Empress Zhangsun, there was no way he could have been created Crown Prince even if his mother was promoted to the position of Empress.

Hmm, have I gotten all the information correctly?

Xie Xie,

[Rong Qin Wang]

Zunjing de Yun the Sage-King,

Well, even if the two characters were the same, there is a strong possibility that they were not really related at all since “Yang” is one of the most popular surnames in China.

Yeah, it was really important to stabilize your position in the Imperial Palace. Hence, if Lady Yang was promoted to the position of Empress, then she would have probably placed a lot of pressure on Tang Taizong to depose the current Crown Prince in favor of her son, Li Ming. Yup, we have seen so many Emperors, who deposed the legitimate heirs in favor of other favorite concubines’ sons. Tang Taizong seems to have loved Li Zhi very much; however, I don’t believe he would have been strong enough to keep Li Zhi as the Crown Prince if his favorite concubine was constantly begging him to replace Li Zhi. If that was the case, then it was pretty much up to his loyal ministers to strongly oppose to replacing a rightful heir.

Oh, I have another question. Let’s just pretend Sui Yangdi’s daughter became the new Empress after Empress Zhangsun died, then would not both Li Ke and his blood brother Li Yin take precedence over Li Zhi to succeed the throne since they were older? Actually, being the fourth Prince, Li Tai would still be in front of Li Yin for the throne; however, Li Tai was already excluded from succession.

Xie Xie,

[liuxing]

But as far as i know the Osmans were the only one to actually have instutionalized this concept that the oldest brother HAD to kill of his siblings when he took the throne, no buts or maybe's they were dead(Strangeld) when there were a new Sultan, the only ekseptions were when the ruling Sultan did not yet have any sons, in that case one or two at the most of his youngest brothers were keept alive until succesion were insure.

Do you have any links to website talking about this? I would like to know more about this tradition. This is worse than that 'compulsary execution of Crown Prince's birth mother' law in the Northern Wei Dynasty.

[fireball]

Do you have any links to website talking about this? I would like to know more about this tradition. This is worse than that 'compulsary execution of Crown Prince's birth mother' law in the Northern Wei Dynasty.

The osmans were the sultans of the Ottoman Empire. The tradition was to kill off all male relatives (at the father side) when the sultan was enthroned in order to preserve the safety of the throne. In the later period, the surviving princes were imprisoned in the "princes' cage" until the time of the death of the old sultan. Sometimes, they were not educated because the sultan was afraid his sons became too smart to plot for the throne. At the end, the mothers of the princes were the ones doing the plotting. Because the mother of the Sultan ruled the harem of the Sultan, the plotting among the mothers of the princes was fierce. In addition, the mothers couldn't leave the harem, so their servants, the eunuchs became powerful doing services for their mistresses. Thus, the royal court of the Ottoman Empire was very similar to Chinese imperial court in certain aspects.

Here are some web sites for you:

http://en.wikipedia....#House_of_Osman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selim_I

Edited by fireball, 25 October 2007 - 02:21 AM.

[Wan Ren aka Danny]

I don't think it is about Chinese cultural thing, it is more about power and greed. This kind of disfunctionality exist in every ancient empires from the Egpytians, Assyrians, Hebrews, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Brittish, France, the Papacy, Spain etc. it is not just a Chinese cultural thing it is a monarchial culture to kill your own kin in the name of the throne.

Remember Queen Elizabeth had Queen Mary of Scot her cousin executed.

Edited by Wan Ren aka Danny, 11 December 2007 - 02:57 PM.

[labi_tail]

i read tis thread wz great interest but i felt tat somehow we haf drifted from the main topic liao...

regardin the killin the brothers, i will say YES, even though it mite not b the best solution....
it s clear tat Li Jiancheng, Li Shimin(mayb even Li YuanJi) r vyin for the throne....

for the sake of Tang or personal reasons, it will b a battle of lives n deaths...
either u r killed by me or i will die by ur hand... so it will b YES...