126 replies to this topic

[Liang Jieming]

Sad to see China so disconnected with its own culture

I find it very sad whenever I visit China to see the people so
disconnected with the culture of the place. This is in contrast to
the cities of Europe, India and every other ancient land. The history
of a place is seen in every aspect of life, from the monuments to the
practices of the people. Not so in China. There are numerous
examples of forts, palaces, temples and monuments but one gets a sense
of the people who live in or around the places only serve more as
caretakers instead of representatives of a continuous line of unbroken
culture.

Where are the noble houses of old, the great ancient houses of dukes
and warriors like those you find in Japan? Often you will see
elaborate houses of long dead officials or magnificent pagodas of past
glories but where are the people who's descendants once inhabited the
place? Who are the proud owners of their legacy? No where to be
found. Instead you find knowledgeable but ultimately disconnected
caretakers/tourist guides who merely point out what was and what used
to be. Go anywhere in Europe and you will see the difference. The
castles and towns boast a proud history with suits of armor and
banners belonging to a forgotten era, still fluttering from ancient
but lived in halls, carrying their legacy forward out of the middle
ages into the future.

Sadder still are the vandalized monuments of a past violent heritage.
Everywhere are slashed statues, headless monuments and lost heritage,
victims of a turbulent past. The mindless wastage and devastation of
the Great Leap forward and the Cultural Revolutions have helped erased
off more of our Chinese culture than all the "barbarian" hordes of the
past could ever hope to have done. We ourselves as Chinese have
helped lose our own culture and heritage to the point where we can no
longer stand on our own achievements but instead to need to emulate
the cultures of others, most notably that of the west. In Italy, you
can gaze at the ancient spendour of the Romans who lived 2000 years
before our time. Yet in China, the Han dynasty of the same era cannot
boast a single monument or structure which can still be seen today
except in crumbling far off desert and mountain outposts.

What legacy can anyone in China now, truly claim to have? How many of
our finest families and histories were lost or have been forced into
exile to Taiwan and abroad? How did we, as a culture, fall so far?

Liang Jieming
http://groups.yahoo....ragonSeedLegacy
http://groups.yahoo....seCultureOnline

[Yun]

Liang Jieming, one reason why no building older than the Liao dynasty has survived to today is because they were mostly built of wood. The walls of cities were certainly solid enough, but many have been torn down for the sake of development. Beijing's walls are only now being restored.

I'm sure you know about Liang Sicheng, son of Liang Qichao and one of China's foremost experts on historical architecture in the 20th century. I recently read a book about his life, written by his second wife, and was struck by how much this man loved China's traditional architecture. He travelled around the country even during the war against the Japanese, seeking out and writing about the oldest buildings, hoping to save them from destruction. He searched hard for wooden buildings from the Tang dynasty or earlier, but eventually accepted that none remained. He chose to stay in China after 1949, and even designed the new state crest, out of love for his country and because he could not bear to leave the architecture behind. But he was brokenhearted when the new Communist regime decided to tear down the walls of Beijing. He had hoped to convert them into a park where residents could freely relax, stroll along the walls, and look out at the surrounding countryside.

During the Cultural Revolution, Liang Sicheng's entire life's work was declared to be reactionary and feudal, and he was forced to openly denounce it. He never truly recovered from the blow, and died a broken man in 1972. He was 70 years old, and his life summed up the tragic loss of China's culture in the madness of the 20th century, despite the best efforts of people who truly loved and treasured it.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Sadder still are the vandalized monuments of a past violent heritage.
Everywhere are slashed statues, headless monuments and lost heritage,
victims of a turbulent past. The mindless wastage and devastation of
the Great Leap forward and the Cultural Revolutions have helped erased
off more of our Chinese culture than all the "barbarian" hordes of the
past could ever hope to have done. We ourselves as Chinese have
helped lose our own culture and heritage to the point where we can no
longer stand on our own achievements but instead to need to emulate
the cultures of others, most notably that of the west. In Italy, you
can gaze at the ancient spendour of the Romans who lived 2000 years
before our time. Yet in China, the Han dynasty of the same era cannot
boast a single monument or structure which can still be seen today
except in crumbling far off desert and mountain outposts.

Hey.. Romans buildings are made of stones.. but most chinese buildings are made of wood/timber. and if you know chinese history, there are countless warfares going on..so when one army conquered a city, some invading generals just burnt all the palaces and buildings.. so it's no wonder that these monuments are gone, esp the fact that they are made of wood which is easily burnt.

No all monuments were destroyed by cultural revolution.. they were destroyed by history itself. But I remember, China is now very keen in restoration work. In fact, they just rebuilt the Tang palaces ( a replica) in Xi'an (the Chang'an capital of Tang dynasty)..and they were very nice.

[RollingWave]

For the architechture part wood is indeed the main reason for that no very old buildings remain.....

However, looking from the other prespective, maybe it is the fact that because our culture is continuious and has not ended that the old buildings were removed, the great pyrimades remain but where are the pharoahs or even the Egyptian religion of old? Where is the Greece of Socrates and Plato? of Zeus and Athena? Where is the Rome of Caeser and Augustus and Cicero? All those culture are dead, almost completely gone... what little remain is in other completely different culture or restored at a much more recent time (for example... Israel...)

But the China of Confucious is not truely gone.. the words and wisdom of the 100 school of thoughts lives on, the Poems of Han/Tang still flows from our mouth, the Operas of Yuan/Ming still plays in our cities. the 3 religion still thrives....all this is a testimony of our culture and our history, culture don't have to be represented in buildings and things that have actural shape, but can be carried on through words and wisdom too..... in which the Romans/Greeks/Egyptians all failed but China has succeeded.

The Cultural revolution was a whole other story..... but even the communist party can not really deny their wrong doings today...... and where the culture was destroyed in China... for a great part it still lives in Taiwan... and even in China today true chinese culture is slowly regrowing.

[Liang Jieming]

Yes you're right. China used a lot of wood and bamboo in their buildings. Probably because it was the easiest and most available building material. One of the reasons why we can still see the ruins of the Classical Greek era is because they used a lot of Marble which was in abundant supply.

Still it's sad to see the defaced cultural relics and headless statues of the older dynasties because of violence from the last few decades. :-)

Liang Jieming
http://groups.yahoo....ragonSeedLegacy
http://groups.yahoo....seCultureOnline

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Wait is the Da Yen Ta today not the original one built during the Tang?

[XuanYuan]

Using wood doesn't necessarily mean shorter life. If this is so then how come there are many really old wooden architecture survived in Japan. It all depend on how to care and repair those buildings. The main hall of Dong Da Si in Japan has been throughly repaired every 100 years or so. Its current form is built with Da Fo Style which is a style popular around Fujian during Southern Song. You dont see any Da Fo style building in Fu Jian today because they are all gone!!!! Japan's Fa Long Si 's planing even reflects the planing of Buddist Temple during Northern and Southern Dynasty which left no trace in mordern China. It is really sad that I have come to Nara or Kyoto in order to see Tang or Song period architecture......

btw. Liang Sicheng eventually found very few surviving Tang buidings in Shan Xi province. Some of them are
Main Hall of Fo Guang Si, Wu Tai Shan, Shan Xi (oldest building in China)

Main Hall of Nan Chan Si, Wu Tai Shan, Shan Xi

[Liang Jieming]

It is really sad that I have come to Nara or Kyoto in order to see Tang or Song period architecture......

Precisely! :-)

Jieming
http://groups.yahoo....ragonSeedLegacy

[MengTzu]

Hey Liang,

I blame our loss of culture on the West, I really do. Other times when I blame the West I was probably joking, but this is one thing for which I blame the West with a passion. It makes me very emotional just thinking about it. But you know what, there's someone I blame even more than the West for this problem: the Chinese. The Chinese were stupid enough to trade thousands of culture away for something they barely learned. It's like clearing a gigantic storage hall and creating a vacuum, then trying to fill it back up in a matter of hours -- ain't gonna happen. Those May 4th movement students really ruined our culture. I'm sorry, I'm very pissed about this. A lot of good has come out of learning from the West, and I'm myself a student of Western philosophies of many years. But one good thing doesn't have to replace another right? I'm pissed about all this for two reasons: 1) so many cultures can celebrate their culture, while the Chinese are often oblivious to a lot of our heritage. Take the Jews, for example. No matter how secular a Jew is, he is rarely ever not knowledgeable about some matter of his culture. Many of their people spent a lot of time studying their religious texts. Look at the Christians. Even the ones who are not particularly devout go to Sunday school to get some basic learning of their religion, such as by memorizing Bible quotes. The Muslims have the Quran. What the heck do we have? We have tons of classics, but we don't know jacks about them, because the scholars thought it's better to study new vernacular writing, and because Mao's words are gold and everything before that should go down the drain. 2) Now that we are trying to pick up what we've thrown away, it's too difficult. History isn't just facts: it's also interpretation. So much of our understanding of the past is filled with Western assumptions, and very often time it just makes no sense trying to use Western equivalents to describe Chinese history: the Chinese bureaucracy was no more bureaucratic than the Catholic clergy. Confucianism is really not entirely secular. All these Western assumptions about China really blur what China really was. The Koreans and Japanese have probably retained more Chinese customs than we do.

Peace,

Michael

9-29-2004

[General_Zhaoyun]

We have tons of classics, but we don't know jacks about them, because the scholars thought it's better to study new vernacular writing, and because Mao's words are gold and everything before that should go down the drain.

I believe some early reformist such as Liang Qichao had once analysed that these chinese classics had become a burden to China, if China wants to modernise during the ROC times. That's why the education has become a more western-style focusing on 'scientific' education, while the traditional methods of studying Confucianian classics were abandoned. I think, if chinese civilization wants to survive, it has to given in to some influence from the west, since they are more modern and practical to making China more modern.

The revival of chinese culture recently over the past 20 years in China was a result of the 'shock' of devastation of chinese culture during the cultural revolution. China felt that these were the treasures of China, and will ultimately still benefit China.

The Koreans and Japanese have probably retained more Chinese customs than we do.

That's true. In Korea, confucian influence is alot STRONGER than that in China. The confucius relation of family (between husband/wife, father/child) is especially obvious in Korean society. There is no equality of sex in Korea, unlike in China, where now woman had an equal status with man.

[MengTzu]

Hey Zhao Yun,

It's a good thing to learn from others, such as the West, as I said. I was complaining about placing the blame on traditional culture, and furthermore, trying to eradicate it within such pretext.

Peace,

Michael

9-29-2004

[General_Zhaoyun]

I would say the May 4th event is of great impact in Modern chinese history. It generally makes our lives easier.. come on, if we have to study both chinese classics plus all the new subjects such as science etc.. today, then we would really have a hard time in school. Also, the May 4th event made chinese language easier to write based on vernacular speech and writing.

I would obviously condemn the cultural revolution. It was a madness to try and eradicate chinese culture. But how is it possible to destroy 5000 years of chinese culture by some mad ignorant students? The chinese found that it was wrong and somehow had to revert to its past to re-store order. This somehow proves that the chinese culture is quite resilent and perhaps indestructable.

[Liang Jieming]

Take the Jews, for example.  No matter how secular a Jew is, he is rarely ever not knowledgeable about some matter of his culture.  Many of their people spent a lot of time studying their religious texts.  Look at the Christians.  Even the ones who are not particularly devout go to Sunday school to get some basic learning of their religion, such as by memorizing Bible quotes.  The Muslims have the Quran.  What the heck do we have?  We have tons of classics, but we don't know jacks about them, because the scholars thought it's better to study new vernacular writing, and because Mao's words are gold and everything before that should go down the drain.  2) Now that we are trying to pick up what we've thrown away, it's too difficult.  History isn't just facts: it's also interpretation.  So much of our understanding of the past is filled with Western assumptions, and very often time it just makes no sense trying to use Western equivalents to describe Chinese history: the Chinese bureaucracy was no more bureaucratic than the Catholic clergy.  Confucianism is really not entirely secular.  All these Western assumptions about China really blur what China really was.  The Koreans and Japanese have probably retained more Chinese customs than we do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed! It's not that we should close our doors and reject all things western just because we want to keep our own culture, but do we really need to throw out everything just because it doesn't seem modern? What defines modern anyway? The current definition of modern seems to be everything western is modern. I think the reaction, like the pendulum swing has gone too far to the other end. It's time to bring back the balance to Chinese society, mainland or overseas. We must learn to build our own definitions of what a modern Chinese society is and not blindly throw out the baby with the bathwater, or like the Malay's of Malaysia say, "Don't throw out the water in your pot just because you hear thunder in the sky".

Jieming
http://groups.yahoo....ragonSeedLegacy

[MengTzu]

I would say the May 4th event is of great impact in Modern chinese history. It generally makes our lives easier.. come on, if we have to study both chinese classics plus all the new subjects such as science etc.. today, then we would really have a hard time in school. Also, the May 4th event made chinese language easier to write based on vernacular speech and writing.

I would obviously condemn the cultural revolution. It was a madness to eradicate chinese culture. But how is it possible to destroy 5000 years of chinese culture by some mad ignorant students? The chinese found that it was wrong and somehow had to revert to its past to re-store order.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey Zhaoyun,

I must beg to differ here. The May 4th movement was a moment of shame and ambivalence. I remember reading Tu Weiming -- I don't think he's old enough to be a May 4th movement student, but he recounted a story about a Japanese scholar going to China and discussing Confucianism. It was around that time when Chinese scholars were abandoning traditions, and the Japanese scholar said, "If you guys don't maintain Confucianism, then we'll have to." Tu Weiming said that at the time, the scholars knew that the Japanese scholar was right, but they also had to stick to their new ideological commitment, and felt really torn inside. This incident really sums up the emotion behind May 4th movement -- it was a time of great disappointment, a time of anger. The Chinese intellectuals felt betrayed by their own traditions. The May 4th movement isn't just learning from the West: the Qing officials already suggested it, but they also insisted keeping traditions. The May 4th movement is also about abandoning our past. I mean, why can't we be like the Jews or the Japanese, keeping our heritage while learning new things? I know we're doing that now, but I feel that to some extent it's too late. Some damages are done and it's hard to repair them. Look at Confucianism: it's current hype is getting pretty ridiculous. It's not easy to show you why, but ask yourself this: do you really think that all this hype about Confucianism is an accurate depiction of what Confucianism really was like? And think of the many Taoist priests that were killed over the last century: one thing about Taoism that many people aren't aware about is that Taoist arts are passed down from master to student, from priests to acolytes. Very often these arts are not supposed to be publicized, so not many people know them, and the masscre of so many of these people probably destroyed forever many intellectual treasures that had been passed on for ages.

Peace,

Michael

9-29-2004

[General_Zhaoyun]

It's always the choice between conservatism vs liberalism. If you favour conservatism, then you would opt no change and that confucianism still dominates. If liberalism is opted, then society has to give in to new changes and new ideas.

I opted for liberalism as I'm more open to new changes, and I see that it is better for chinese society as a whole, rather being closed-up still sticked to the old confucian society. Of course, there would be several conservatism argument against change, but I would say, China changes as a result of history and history changes with time. It's good that China adapted well to new change.