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China disconnected with its own culture


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#46 General_Zhaoyun

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 08:02 AM

And, not to be too narrow-minded, I hope to see that China would allow more "philosophy-based" religion (Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism) to flow back into the populace. But meanwhile, not to offend anyone, keep the other more monotheistic and deity-based religions under control.


It's going to be more difficult for China to allow more religions. China is now still an autocracy. After the Falungong incidence (FLG), which the chinese government feel to be a threat to the communisty party's power, it is now more strict with religious practice. Furthermore, the communist are completely atheist, and therefore, it doesn't encourage any form of religion, fearing that religion might be somehow be connected to politics, and would gain strength to topple the communist party. That's the reason why you don't see religion prospering in China.

Actually, buddhism, confucianism and Taoism have no connection with politics and I would say it would contribute to society stability and should be encouraged.
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#47 MengTzu

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 08:42 PM

Hey Janz,

"people can't have choice? government should force people to have old traditions?"

I thought you merely misread me, but you really have no idea what we're talking about. Nobody wants the government to force people to keep traditions. The May 4thers wren't rebels, they weren't some kind of grassroot movement -- they were the intellectual elites, the people who eventually forced traditions out of China. If anything it was precisely the government who killed our traditions.

Nobody wants an oppressive Confucian regime. But tradition isn't about that. The government isn't always on the side of tradition, and there are so many things about traditions, like Confucianism, that we can keep while we throw out the bad stuff (like government oppression) of it. What makes you think that any of us wants to bring back the emperors? Tradition is about choice, and it was those who got rid of it that reduced our choices: our heritage used to be much more diverse, but some people from before tried to erase it.

Peace,

Michael

10-2-2004

#48 janz

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 10:47 PM

i wan't replying to you, jeeze, you should read too.
灭六国者, 六国也, 非秦国也。族秦者,秦也,非天下也。

roughtly translated...

the six states destroyed the six states, not qin.
qin ruled qin, not the whole country.

#49 Tyler

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 11:26 PM

Lets stay on topic.

#50 Gubook Janggoon

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 11:52 PM

hmm...I feel like there's a misunderstanding here...I was simply saying that it was my opinion that people should hold on to their traditions...I don't know why you are so fired up about that... :huh:
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#51 MengTzu

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Posted 03 October 2004 - 02:57 AM

Hey Janz,

I was talking about that one point you made. No one here, as far as I know, suggests that government should limit the choice to tradition. I'm not just speaking for me, but for all of us, however you're addressing.

Peace,

Michael

10-3-2004

#52 Han_Chinese

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Posted 03 October 2004 - 12:09 PM

And, not to be too narrow-minded, I hope to see that China would allow more "philosophy-based" religion (Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism) to flow back into the populace. But meanwhile, not to offend anyone, keep the other more monotheistic and deity-based religions under control.


Actually, buddhism, confucianism and Taoism have no connection with politics and I would say it would contribute to society stability and should be encouraged.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


That is exactly what I was implying, because Buddhism, Confucianism, and Taoism ALL contains important lores, morals, and ancestral traditions, and not as much superstition.

In my opinion, other than letting the Hui ethnicity and various others keep their Islamic faith, China should dwell itself slowly upon the forgotten philosophies of our revered ancients.

Oh, and to reply to janz:

hi, i never said we should to let old traditions totally go. no one has said that.


But you implied something about: "in real world, if something doesn't fit, then it's gone. it happens all the time and everywhere. lets talk about japan, how come they don't have their traditional cloth when they go to work or school? have they forgoten their culture? are you going to wear what your ancestors had 300 years ago today? probably for ceremonies maybe, but are you going to wear it everyday? what can you do and what are you going to do about the change of society? please, just stop saying what chinese people should do, blah blah, can you walk the walk? what are YOU doing to perserve those old cultures?"

1. By your use of words, you are giving me an image of that you do not want to try to preserve Chinese traditions and culture. This, alone, assures our ethnicity to slowly let the old traditions go.

2. The government FORBIDS people to have the old culture, and antagonizes it when possible by calling it "superstition" or "ignorance". How do the people get to decide if they want to keep the culture or not, if they can't even get an unbiased/uncorrupted view upon this matter?

If only they knew the truth, I am sure many people would want to PRESERVE their own unique identities of their past.

P.S. To answer your previous rant about if we have any ancient Chinese materials with us, you must answer this: how could we preserve something if the majority has forgotten about it, or if the government held us back?

Alone we can only do so much; now only the intellectuals and historians can re-spread our traditions to the populace through the government: when they finally open up.

#53 janz

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Posted 05 October 2004 - 08:09 PM

if it's a superstition, then the government must educate the people. do you even know how bad the situation is in China?
before you say anything, how about give me a background information on you? were you raised in china? if yes, how many years? are you able to read chinese news paper?
i have no idea why so many people are so disconnected from the current and real problems in china.
灭六国者, 六国也, 非秦国也。族秦者,秦也,非天下也。

roughtly translated...

the six states destroyed the six states, not qin.
qin ruled qin, not the whole country.

#54 Han_Chinese

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Posted 06 October 2004 - 02:55 PM

if it's a superstition, then the government must educate the people. do you even know how bad the situation is in China?
before you say anything, how about give me a background information on you? were you raised in china? if yes, how many years? are you able to read chinese news paper?
i have no idea why so many people are so disconnected from the current and real problems in china.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Culture and superstition is not meant to be synonymous to each other, the government only says that to antagonize our old culture.

I was born in Hong Kong, but later brought back to China for my grandmother to raise me as a child for 2 years. I go back to visit my mother's side of the family once every month, and I am also Chinese literate.

Maybe you would like to point out "how bad the situation is in China" by giving me some links, I have not heard of culture killing/scamming people yet. There are many kinds of superstition, but not all of them is related to culture.

The most serious king of superstition I witness in China is Falun Gong, which I am strongly against anyway. Other superstition involves paying those fortune tellers by the streets, which I find to be a nuisance.

As a side note, compared with overpopulation, corruption, famine, and morals, culture is not a real problem.

#55 janz

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Posted 06 October 2004 - 03:07 PM

do you read chinese news regularly then? go to read how much land china lost just to get place for dead people. go to read how much money people spend on marriages and funerals. go to read how much money people spend on fengshui and traditional chinese medicine. go to read all those spiritual healers at countryside.and you only lived in mainland chinese as a child for 2 years. do you even remember all the ads for curing cancer, gain height stuff on the walls and telephone poles?

note, i only talk about superstition here.
灭六国者, 六国也, 非秦国也。族秦者,秦也,非天下也。

roughtly translated...

the six states destroyed the six states, not qin.
qin ruled qin, not the whole country.

#56 yehzhaofeng

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Posted 06 October 2004 - 07:02 PM

www.falungonginfo.org
What the Falungong really is, and why the government attacked the FLG.

葉兆峰


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John 3:16


#57 MengTzu

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Posted 06 October 2004 - 11:07 PM

Hey janz,

I don't know how we got from traditions to superstitions. Every culture and tradition has elements of superstitous, old or new, Chinese or non-Chinese. And then every culture and tradition also has elements of rationality -- the philosophical side of Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism are no less rational than the underlying philosophies upon which modern science is built.

Now, I've heard plenty of stories of the sort that you noted. Again, I don't see how traditions are to blame for them. As said above, there are rational aspects of traditions -- if people choose not to heed the rational aspects but rather choose the superstitous, it's not traditons' fault. The Western, modern world has superstitions of its own.

Besides, some of the things you said are arguably not at all superstituous. My brother is a medical student in the States, and he commented Chinese medicine apparently works. Stuff about weight loss -- even though traditional medicine is invoked here, the issue is a new one. No Chinese traditions told people to lose weight. I know you're only talking about superstition here -- my point is how is this at all relevant to our ongoing topic about traditions? You've been dodging the topic to a point that you've gone way off tangent here.

Peace,

Michael

10-6-2004

#58 janz

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 01:46 AM

my.... i was replying to Han_Chinese, perhaps you should read before make a comment?

some traditional chinese medicines work, but most don't.
traditional chinese medicines are based on yinyang and 5 elements. how can people get cured from those kind bs?
灭六国者, 六国也, 非秦国也。族秦者,秦也,非天下也。

roughtly translated...

the six states destroyed the six states, not qin.
qin ruled qin, not the whole country.

#59 MengTzu

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 01:53 AM

my.... i was replying to Han_Chinese, perhaps you should read before make a comment?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Hey Janz

Of course I know you're replying Han Chinese :) What makes you think that I wasn't reading the posts or wasn't aware of that? I'm just making comments to your post to Han Chinese, which is perfectly valid, since it's a public forum.

Peace,

Michael

10-6-2004

#60 janz

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 01:57 AM

if you read it, then why did you say "how we got from traditions to superstitions".... nevermind...
灭六国者, 六国也, 非秦国也。族秦者,秦也,非天下也。

roughtly translated...

the six states destroyed the six states, not qin.
qin ruled qin, not the whole country.




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