126 replies to this topic

[MengTzu]

if you read it, then why did you say "how we got from traditions to superstitions".... nevermind...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm challenging your presumption here that superstitions should be associated with traditions (anymore so than or as opposed to non-traditions) in the first place.

[Liang Jieming]

I'm challenging your presumption here that superstitions should be associated with traditions (anymore so than or as opposed to non-traditions) in the first place.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Traditions and superstitions are not the same thing but then neither are they mutually exclusive. It's kinda hard sometimes to separate the two and I think that's the whole problem here.

While I agree that traditions, culture and superstitions don't necessarily need to be discarded in order to be progressive and modern, there are some traditions/culture/superstitions which are blindly followed to the point of hindering progress. The key is finding this balance or mix of traditions with modernity.

MengTzu's mention of the Japanese mix of culture and progress is a good example to emulate. Rare is the country/people who progress without a firm foundation on culture and traditions which act as the glue to a society giving identity and a basis of accepted norms and understanding. The rising social problems faced by the ordinary American citizen is testimony to this dicotomy in the US today.

All cultures have their superstitions and they are not all negative. Most are harmless like many of the wedding traditions of the west which we are increasingly following as we drop our own chinese wedding traditions, while some are actually beneficial as they represent generations of accumulated knowledge. Even western medical science today are begining to awake to the possibility that many of the superstitions of TCM work, though much research is still needed to understand the how and the why.

The whole issue is muddled by the fact that the Chinese have been portrayed rather negatively over the last few centuries. We need to get beyond Charlie Chan, cheesy kungfu, chopsuey and all the other skewed portrayals of Chinese culture still rampant in the rest of the world today. But more importantly, we ourselves must first be able to see through this painted venier and see the beauty of our own culture and not blindly follow the pervasiveness of hollywood and other powerful imagery coming mainly from the west, clambering to formulate our perceptions.

Jieming
http://groups.yahoo....ragonSeedLegacy

[MengTzu]

Traditions and superstitions are not the same thing but then neither are they mutually exclusive.  It's kinda hard sometimes to separate the two and I think that's the whole problem here.

My point is that superstition is a part of tradition just as much as rationality is. Look through some of the classics of Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism and you find a lot of anti-superstition elements. So to arbitrarily and immediately associate tradition and superstition is unwarranted. That is not to say that there are no supersitious tradition, but it seems odd that the superstitious aspect stand out as an identifying aspect at all for tradition -- what of all the non-traditional superstitions? In other words, superstition can be associated with tradition as much as rationality can, and superstition can be associated with tradition as much as with modernity. It's a matter of mistaken correlations that I'm challenging. My argument is similar to the post-modernist ones, if you wanna understand it better.

Peace,

Michael

10-7-2004

[Liang Jieming]

My point is that superstition is a part of tradition just as much as rationality is.  Look through some of the classics of Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism and you find a lot of anti-superstition elements.  So to arbitrarily and immediately associate tradition and superstition is unwarranted.  That is not to say that there are no supersitious tradition, but it seems odd that the superstitious aspect stand out as an identifying aspect at all for tradition -- what of all the non-traditional superstitions?  In other words, superstition can be associated with tradition as much as rationality can, and superstition can be associated with tradition as much as with modernity.  It's a matter of mistaken correlations that I'm challenging.  My argument is similar to the post-modernist ones, if you wanna understand it better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hehehe, no arguments there. You are absolutely correct when you say there are non-traditional superstitions too. Just look at the soccer players or NBA basketball players and their superstitions about lucky socks and haircuts etc. ;-) Just more examples of what I was talking about when I mentioned "harmless" superstitions (unless you faint from the smell of moldy socks!).

Given the choice, I'd rather have superstitions in society so long as they are not detrimental to, or hinder a society's development. It adds spice to life and differentiates us from a clinically spartan and utilitarian existance of a colourless robotic life.

Cheers,
Jieming

[MengTzu]

Hehehe, no arguments there.  You are absolutely correct when you say there are non-traditional superstitions too.  Just look at the soccer players or NBA basketball players and their superstitions about lucky socks and haircuts etc.  ;-)  Just more examples of what I was talking about when I mentioned "harmless" superstitions (unless you faint from the smell of moldy socks!).

Given the choice, I'd rather have superstitions in society so long as they are not detrimental to, or hinder a society's development.  It adds spice to life and differentiates us from a clinically spartan and utilitarian existance of a colourless robotic life.

Cheers,
Jieming

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Chinese have an interesting view about superstition that I think is actually healthy (there are cases of excess, as janz point out.) I dunno if it's a Cantonese thing or if it's a Chinese thing, but often time we don't say we do something for good luck, but for "yi tou," literally means that we do something for its meaning. This is very similar to the Confucian idea that we perform religious rituals not because we know for sure that they are effective, but because the meaning of the rituals can help us emotionally. Confucius said that to treat a dead person as if he's a live is unreasonable, because we don't know for sure if the souls of the dead live on; but to treat a dead person as dead is too unaffectionate, as though we can just cut off the memory of a loved one as soon as that person passes away. That's the point of honoring the dead -- we don't know if they can hear us, but at least we feel better after we've honored them with affection. So I agree that harmless superstitions might not be bad -- even if they don't work, we very often celebrate our values through them.

Peace,

Michael

10-7-2004

[janz]

right... if i have a cold, is that because i have more yin than yang? or i miss some elements? i make a correction, i have no problem with medicine, but all those thories are bs. even those medicine do work, it's still not good for you since you have no way to check what kind stuff in those medicines.
"as for the money spent on marriage and funerals, i don't really see them as a bad thing." lol, poor people spend more money on those kind stuff than rich people. why? because poor people believe those kind ceremonies bring good lucks. they should spend money on education or tools to help themselves, not blow off all the money in a few days. and finally, it's all come down to face, "if he spent so much moeny, i have to spend more."

"as for money spend on fenshui and land used for burying. some of them are problems, but they are much less a problem now. actually the land it occupies to bury a person in china is much less compare to america and those fake doctors in countryside is more because of the inability of goverment to provide adequate cheap medical care than anything to do with culture."
really? wow, you are living in a different dimension then. it's on the news everyday, read them.
http://www.tfol.com/.../qdzf/qdzf.html
http://news.sina.com...082356732.shtml
http://news.rednet.c...3/05/414913.htm
http://topic.homeway...eral2_1658.aspx
http://gb.chinabroad...0/542@92568.htm
http://www.ty123.com...010&AutoID=1839

[TMPikachu]

And, not to be too narrow-minded, I hope to see that China would allow more "philosophy-based" religion (Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism) to flow back into the populace. But meanwhile, not to offend anyone, keep the other more monotheistic and deity-based religions under control.

It's going to be more difficult for China to allow more religions. China is now still an autocracy. After the Falungong incidence (FLG), which the chinese government feel to be a threat to the communisty party's power, it is now more strict with religious practice. Furthermore, the communist are completely atheist, and therefore, it doesn't encourage any form of religion, fearing that religion might be somehow be connected to politics, and would gain strength to topple the communist party. That's the reason why you don't see religion prospering in China.

Actually, buddhism, confucianism and Taoism have no connection with politics and I would say it would contribute to society stability and should be encouraged.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My feelings are much like that.

I remember listening to the NPR, it talked about Christianity and prostitution coming back to the borders of China
my first thought was

"Nuts, the Christians are back"

I think Yin/Yang is very easily applied to life, science, etc.
Matter is neither created nor destroyed, the Yin-Yang belief of balance is existant in that.
Kinetics, energy stored and released, just shifted, never really created nor destroyed, it all makes sense with the Yin-Yang outlook.

Nit-picking on it just seems asinine.
Funerals show respect, marriages are a time to celebration. We are not animals, we are human beings, we have many creative ways to waste time and money, that's how we enjoy life.

**
Have you gone to the movies? OMG, you wasted your money you idiot, you could have spent that money on science! The movie industry is stupid, poor people go waste their money, rich people waste their resources to create a ritual without any value.
This forum is a waste of time, you're wasting the power of the internet to talk to people you will never meet, about issues that don't matter, with nothing accomplished in the end!

Science, medicine! Let's all become sterile robots in a perfect world free of waste and superstition!
**

[handynas]

I would say the May 4th event is of great impact in Modern chinese history. It generally makes our lives easier.. come on, if we have to study both chinese classics plus all the new subjects such as science etc.. today, then we would really have a hard time in school. Also, the May 4th event made chinese language easier to write based on vernacular speech and writing.

I would obviously condemn the cultural revolution. It was a madness to try and eradicate chinese culture. But how is it possible to destroy 5000 years of chinese culture by some mad ignorant students? The chinese found that it was wrong and somehow had to revert to its past to re-store order. This somehow proves that the chinese culture is quite resilent and perhaps indestructable.

ya i blame chinese indifference to their own cultures to may 4th and cultural revolution, i think during those times, chinese after years of humiliation under foreigners, saw chinese culture as a smelling, rotting part of the body and were too eager to denounce everything chinese, so much so that they sort of threw out the bathing water along with the baby ...

[TMPikachu]

Why is it that Confucianism (with its inequalities), is held as the definative Chinese cultural influence, (and here compared to Judaism), and Taoism is rarely mentioned? Taoism certainly has influenced Chinese culture, from "Chinese New Year" to traditional medicine that is being widely used around the world. Why the rejection of Taoism as a religion and a philosophy of worth?

Ke Jia

I don't think anyone rejects it. Just that confucianism is more... 'obvious' as it applies to organization of daily things.

Taoism is more 'spiritual' to me. That's just a subject that's not covered as much, or not thought of as often.

[Yun]

Taoism certainly has influenced Chinese culture, from "Chinese New Year" to traditional medicine that is being widely used around the world. Why the rejection of Taoism as a religion and a philosophy of worth?

Because 'Daoism' is such an amorphous concept that no one can fully define what is Daoist and what isn't. What distinctly Daoist elements are there in the Chinese New Year?

If you say that Yin and Yang are Daoist concepts, then remember that they've also been influential in Confucianism since the Han.

[ckyeah]

i think every chinese is preserving chinese culture in their country, wherever there are. in malaysia, there are independence chinese schools that promote chinese culture like music and performances. when the time is ripe, all chinese will go back mainland to uphold it.

but sometimes, i cannot differentiate between buddhism and taiosm. chinese temples both have buddha and tao worshipping.

it seems to me that there are FLG topic in many topics, but i wont start discussing it since there is already a thread, and the site, www.falungonginfo.org is defaming and spreading hatred towards FLG.