126 replies to this topic

[jwrevak]

science can not explain everything in the world, because science does not have simple answers like "god did it" or "god created it".

So why were we born to suffer and died?

[Liang Jieming]

to continue the species!!!!!! yay!

[phoenix_bladen]

what i want chinese ppl to do is promote hanfu back as the han clothing.... and wear it in celebrations and ceremoies or like say in the olympics have a bunch of cheerlearders wear hanfu or something........

[TMPikachu]

we had a thread about that before I believe, or it just comes up.


If in military parades dress uniforms were like the clothing patterned after armor, carrying ceremonial jian.

yeah... it would be cool.

[JoeBlack]

just to clear it up, i did not say to wipe everything about Confucianism out, i said by that time, Confucianism was a tool to opperess people, that's why it was nessercery to get rid of it. sorry,i went to watch tv and didn't have time for long posts.

and just for your information, yes, i do believe all religions should be banned. from my point of view, there are no uses for religions anymore.
"Ru Jia, Confucianism, is so much a part of our language, our philosophical thinking, our cultural attitude, our system of values, our dreams, our hope, our imagination, our memory, our mistakes, our flaws, our shortcomings "

this part is over stretching. if Confucianism is so wonderful, it will survive. if it can't survive, then it's not fit to modern society. only time will tell.

I agree with the idea that Confucianism is "a tool to oppress people" and it is not necessary. I, too, think it should be gone for good.

However, I do not believe that all religions should be "banned". Freedom to exercise religion is a human right. I don't think any government in any level or even the schools should endorse Confucianism. It is clearly a religion. No government should endorse a religion.

I know that Confucianism is deeply embedded in Chinese culture. It is a part of Chinese culture. However, Confucianism is against modern human right. It teaches obedience rather than the freedom of thinking. In a long run, it can prevent self expression. The benefit of getting rid of Confucianism outweighs the preservation of the culture.

In Taiwan, teachers can "force" their students to learn. This entire teaching ideal came from Confucianism. Teachers have dual functions as parents and educators. It is not a very efficient system because teachers become too emotionally involved with their students to be professional.

[MengTzu]

I agree with the idea that Confucianism is "a tool to oppress people" and it is not necessary.  I, too, think it should be gone for good.

If you're saying any religions that has been used as a tool of oppression should be removed, then Confucianism will be one of many, many -- most of these are held dear by the majority of the world's population.

However, I do not believe that all religions should be "banned".  Freedom to exercise religion is a human right.  I don't think any government in any level or even the schools should endorse Confucianism.  It is clearly a religion.  No government should endorse a religion.

It is certainly not clear whether Confucianism should be considered a religion. If it is so clear, then so many scholars in the academia must be too stupid to recognize this fact so that they are still debating it. Apparently you should be made the teacher of all these scholars to show them the truth. Moreover, "religion" is a Western construct. To so readily apply it to an Eastern system, and to claim that such application is "clear" is certainly an uninformed judgement.

I know that Confucianism is deeply embedded in Chinese culture.  It is a part of Chinese culture.  However, Confucianism is against modern human right.

What human right did Kong Tzi and his school teach against? What did Meng Tzi teach against when he said, "the people first, the nation second, the king last"? What did they teach against when they recommend lowering taxes and even redistributing wealth? What did they teach against when they say that everyone, from the son of Heaven to the peasant, has the common duty of self-cultivation, a claim that posits each and every human being equal morally?

It teaches obedience rather than the freedom of thinking.

An inaccurate, uninformed description about something is bound not to be taken seriously. Hsiao Jing 15: Hsun Tzi asked Kong Tzi if filial piety requires obedience, Kong Tzi said: what kind of words are these? .... When one's father is unjust, one must protest; if one obeys, how can this be filial piety? (The passage also included the merits of protesting unjust kings.)

In a long run, it can prevent self expression. The benefit of getting rid of Confucianism outweighs the preservation of the culture.

What it CAN do is one thing, what it actually does is up to us. Don't blame the ideology when it was the government that abused its power. Kong Tzi didn't teach against self-expression.

In Taiwan, teachers can "force" their students to learn.  This entire teaching ideal came from Confucianism.

Teachers were mean, let's blame Confucians -- wrong. Kong Tzi said, "If I point out one corner, and the student cannot point out the other three, I'll not repeat this method." (Analect 7) Yan Hui (Kong Tzi's student) said, "The great master methodically guide [the student.]" (Analect 9) Clearly, Confucianism doesn't encourage forceful education.

Teachers have dual functions as parents and educators.  It is not a very efficient system because teachers become too emotionally involved with their students to be professional.

That's Kong Tzi's fault?

I'll be honest with you: I do identify myself as a Confucian, but I don't pretend for a moment that we return to the moments in imperial age when we adopted it as state ideology, nor do I exclude other forms of ideologies. No sane Confucian I know is suggesting that we return to the time of Han Wudi. If you can't even criticize Confucianism by pointing out problems in the classics and writings, and instead, rehash cliche and unproven criticism that had been circulating since the May 4th movement down through the communist era, then you're bound to be refuted. if you want to form a true argument, search the classics. If you're gonna change your argument to "oh, I'm not criticizing Confucianism as such, just the historical corruption of it," don't bother, because you already said "Confucianism has to go," instead of "historical corruptions of Confucian should be fixed." I'm not even saying that Confucianism is perfect, but if you're gonna just give us all these rehashed yet inaccurate arguments taken for granted by so many people, spare us the time -- I'm tired of addressing the same groundless points.

P.S.: sorry if I'm a little harsh. It's just that you're not the first person making such claims before even providing one well-researched proof.

[Klamath]

I agree with the idea that Confucianism is "a tool to oppress people" and it is not necessary.  I, too, think it should be gone for good.

However, I do not believe that all religions should be "banned".  Freedom to exercise religion is a human right.  I don't think any government in any level or even the schools should endorse Confucianism.  It is clearly a religion.  No government should endorse a religion.

After the cutural revolution in China ,confucianism still remains. Powerful.
Confucianism is not a religion, it is criterion for ancient society and primitive philosophy, it does not allow worship any Gods or any mystic things.
If it is religion, and also a tool to oppress people, so how about the others? Chistism had always been a tool as pioneer for invasion. No one is innocent.
It is quite necessay to keep confucianism and make it advance higher.

[MengTzu]

After the cutural revolution in China ,confucianism still remains. Powerful.

It remains, but in no way powerfully.

Confucianism is not a religion, it is criterion for ancient society and primitive philosophy, it does not allow worship any Gods or any mystic things.

While it is arguable whether Confucianism is or isn't a religion, the idea that Confucianism "does not allow worship any Gods or any mystic things" is simply not true. Kong Tzi said, "Honor the ghosts and spirits and distant yourself from them." Confucians also ritually honor Heaven, Earth, ancestors, and the Confucian sages.

[TMPikachu]

JoeBlack, do you consider the boy scouts a religion? I think Confucianism is about as 'mystical' as the Boy Scouts.

Religion, the meaning and place of it between East and West is different

I think there should be another word used 'teachings', when talking of Confucianism. Religion always conjures up in my head western organized faiths.

[Klamath]

It remains, but in no way powerfully.
While it is arguable whether Confucianism is or isn't a religion, the idea that Confucianism "does not allow worship any Gods or any mystic things" is simply not true.  Kong Tzi said, "Honor the ghosts and spirits and distant yourself from them."  Confucians also ritually honor Heaven, Earth, ancestors, and the Confucian sages.

'
So ,how do you explain that "子不语怪力乱神".

[MengTzu]

'
  So ,how do you explain that "子不语怪力乱神".

It is a mistake to take one statement by Kong Tzi and determine that his teaching is limited to it. One must look at the big picture.

There's a simple reconciliation between this statement and the statement that we should honor the ghosts and spirits. Once Kong Tzu said this: If we treat the dead as though they were dead, then we're unaffectionate; if we treat the dead as though they are a live, we don't have proof that the dead are still alive. To honor the dead is therefore not to insist that the dead still exist in another plane (they might, they might not,) but to pay them our homage. In a sense, we honor the dead because of our love for them.

Kong Tzi did not speak of "the strange, use of force, rebelliousness, and the mysterious." This doesn't mean that he denied the existence of gods. Rather, he simply didn't have a theory about them (unless Mo Tzi, who was the opposite regarding the spirits -- Mo Tzi believed that we should not have elaborate rituals, but we must believe that the spirits exist.) Kong Tzi's stance regarding what are mysterious and unknown, such as spirits and death, is neither belief nor denial. Yet he still teaches that we honor the spirits, whether or not we believe that they exist, because, by honoring the spirits we exert our love, a love that is proper and fitting, whether or not the spirits actually exist.

You can think of it this way: it WOULD be right to honor the spirits if we know they exist. Doing what WOULD be right is virtuous and proper. In a sense, you can also say that we honor the spirits for ourselves -- for our own cultivation of manners. That is not to say that honoring the spirits is merely for ourselves, because our respect for the spirits must be genuine.

[handynas]

we had a thread about that before I believe, or it just comes up.
If in military parades dress uniforms were like the clothing patterned after armor, carrying ceremonial jian.

yeah... it would be cool.

yah i second that, i wonder why are they not doing that while i see the koreans already starting to do that. It is going to instill pride. better still they have no. 1, no. 2 uniform for all the different dynasties and they will use different dynasty for different occassions.

[Liang Jieming]

We should also bring back square holed coins and... my personal favourite, bring back the wine drinking vessels with the sprout and all! It could be in modern plastic or glass. I'd love to entertain guests with a set of those ancient designer glasses!

[lobster]

Wouldn't coins with holes cost more to make and be easier to break?