64 replies to this topic

[Spc4]

I wondered if society tends to be more critical of female executives.
Would you compare her to Carly Fiorina of HP?

Just a modern perspective on this lady.

Cixi was a crazed wacko. She drained the treasury on herself and tortured people in really sad ways.
Carly was respected enough to be considered for a post at the IMF after her departure from HP. The merger she engineered at HP requires a thorough team effort but as is usually the case, the leader takes the fall.

[astralis]

Another things is that Qing may have crumbled much more earlier had not been for Cixi. You can see three years after her death, the republic was born.

i donno, i think emperor guangxu was doing alright before cixi decided to take power

china survived more in spite of cixi rather because of cixi.

[Grigori]

Political leaders are judged by how they rose to meet the challenge before them. Cixi was an absolute disaster. She completely misread the seriousness of domestic problems and showed shockly poor judgement when dealing with foreign powers.

Granted in happy go lucky days her selfish antics would just be another unremarkable blip. But the fact was it was her responsibility, she seized power, and then blew it.

[Spc4]

I am surprised by your harsh verdict on her. I would say that Mao Zedong and his Cultural Revolution has cause greater harm to the progress of China that Empress Cixi could ever imagined. Yet many in China praised Mao as a hero.

That's because Mao did some inappraisably good things before liberation. There was nothing good about Cixi.

Your other criticisms should also be used in the past tense. China survived its worst days because of strong and creative leadership, not simply a large population. It could have ended up like India.

[Grigori]

I am surprised by your harsh verdict on her. I would say that Mao Zedong and his Cultural Revolution has cause greater harm to the progress of China that Empress Cixi could ever imagined. Yet many in China praised Mao as a hero.

I felt her attitude toward reform was not far different than the Manchu offical as a time.  The young emperor Guangxu may have attempted to reform the court but it was only after the Japanese has successfully completed the Meiji Restoration.  The emperor was no original thinker either and his factions failed to win over support.

Even until today China still suffers from the  "Middle Kingdom" mentality where the people mistakenly believe their civilization is still superior to the rest of the world.  Therefore that led to their naiveness in their dealings with Western powers, the Opium Wars as an example.  China is a country that is obsessed in the past and lives very much in the past.  For a dragon, it moves very slowly.

There has been few great Chinese leaders for a very long time. China has been able to survive because of its large size and large population. Therefore it can afford to have mediocre leadership and in fact it has plenty of it.

I never said the Meiji Emperor was an original. Originality is not a necessary attribute for reformers. If you're looking for an original reformer soverign you'll have to look at Peter the Great.

Cixi cannot be compared to Mao because their motivations were different and the lasting effects of their mistakes are of different magnitudes. Mao's fault was he pursued a failed model for progress. Let's look at what he did accomplish. Mao unified the country, strengthened central power and expanded territory. No foreign power would dare invade China during Mao era's weakest moment. During his rule China also made huge progress in industry and science albeit all this was at great cost in terms of human catastrophy. However following his death Chinese modernization was back on track within a few years.

Cixi on the other hand failed to stop the death spiral of the dynasty. Her reign was long and there were plenty of opportunties missed. Finally she smothered the reform efforts of her nephew and eventually poisoned him in favor of a child emperor to succeed herself.

Cixi's efforts doomed the Qing Dynasty to a chaotic collapse, resulting in the warlordism that followed. This divisive dynastic transition period weakened the country which made the later Japanese invasion possible. The disaster of Cixi's reign would cast long shadows for decades to come. Her contribution is decidedly a net negative.

[highlander]

I am surprised by your harsh verdict on her. I would say that Mao Zedong and his Cultural Revolution has cause greater harm to the progress of China that Empress Cixi could ever imagined. Yet many in China praised Mao as a hero.

I felt her attitude toward reform was not far different than the Manchu offical as a time.  The young emperor Guangxu may have attempted to reform the court but it was only after the Japanese has successfully completed the Meiji Restoration.  The emperor was no original thinker either and his factions failed to win over support.

Even until today China still suffers from the  "Middle Kingdom" mentality where the people mistakenly believe their civilization is still superior to the rest of the world.  Therefore that led to their naiveness in their dealings with Western powers, the Opium Wars as an example.  China is a country that is obsessed in the past and lives very much in the past.  For a dragon, it moves very slowly.

There has been few great Chinese leaders for a very long time. China has been able to survive because of its large size and large population. Therefore it can afford to have mediocre leadership and in fact it has plenty of it.

You my friend would definitely have to read up more before posting. Everything you have written except probably the third paragraph doesn't make any sense at all. Take a vacation to Shanghai, Beijing or even Guangzhou and then reflect on what you have written in the 3rd paragraph......you have no idea how ignorant you are!

[astralis]

make sure the sniping doesn't get too much out of hand, guys.

[Grigori]

All this stuff about Cixi is evil and how the source of failure can be attribute to one person takes the blame away from the  the ruling class and the educated elite at the time who was as much responsible.

I am curious that the CCP today is advocating that democracy can not be "forced" and change will need to take time.  But the CCP is getting praised by some. How is that any different than Empress Cixi suppressing the reforms because they were too radical at the time?  Just my thought.

Cixi WAS evil. Cutting your competitor's arms and legs off and make her live out her last days in a jar is pretty evil no? Sure she had accomplices. I'm not questioning her ability to lead like-minded counter reformers, rather her ability to successfully lead the country.

I'm pro-democracy and want to see more democratic reforms. However your analogy of CCP as comparible to Cixi is flawed. Cixi's China was in no way a rising superpower. CCP doesnot resist reform in fact their entire legitimacy is based on a reform platform. CCP even offcially says democracy is China's future. However it's focus is on economic reform first, legal reform second, political reform last - with a strong focus on stability throughout. This policy is based on lessons learned from the failed Soviet reform priorities.

You may not agree with this policy, I also think that somethings could be done alot better. However you must agree CCP's reform policies did bear fruit. And that for your dissent to be taken seriously your alternative proposal must be demonstrably superior to the status quo.

[lobster]

Cixi WAS evil. Cutting your competitor's arms and legs off and make her live out her last days in a jar is pretty evil no? Sure she had accomplices.

Hmm? I thought that was Han Gaozu's wife Empress Lu who did that?

[Spc4]

Cixi was also a fan of removing people's eyeballs in addition to their limbs. After all that, she keeps them alive for as long as possible.