118 replies to this topic

[Yun]

Maybe I should share my experience, as a Singaporean of Chinese descent who grew up relatively Westernised and only became comfortable with Chinese culture in his late teens, since Snowybeagle mentioned it.

I'm a second-generation Singaporean: my paternal grandparents came over from China between 1945 and 1949, and my father was born here. That gives my family a far shorter history here than most others. My father was educated in English and was not very proficient in Chinese, and my mother was educated in Chinese and was not strong in English - this was the period of Singapore history when the government had not yet made English the only medium of education, except for Chinese language classes.

My parents were raised as Christians, and so was I. So I learned no Chinese folk tales or history stories as a child - mainly Bible stories and European fairy tales. In fact, because of the need for multi-ethnic education in Singapore, children are all taught English nursery rhymes and fairy tales in pre-school (unlike my mother, who grew up singing Chinese children's songs and folk songs in school), and I actually learned some Greek mythology in elementary school. We were all required to learn Chinese as long as we were of Chinese descent, and to learn how to speak Mandarin (Putonghua), but I was not very strong in it because I usually read no Chinese books other than my textbook, and found them tedious to read (however, my mother tried unsuccessfully to encourage us to read more in Chinese). Most Singaporean children disliked the manner in which Chinese was taught - even when Tang poems and proverbs came in, it was all about memorization and not cultural appreciation. In contrast, between the ages of 9 and 13 I devoured nearly every classic novel of English literature that I could find in the bookstores. English was a living language for me.

My view of Chinese culture was limited to what I saw at the grassroots and at the Chinese New Year. Lots of red and gold, an obsession with wealth and prosperity, gongs, cliches about filial piety and patriotism. It did not appeal to me at all. I also tried reading Bo Yang's "The Ugly Chinaman" (in English translation) to get an idea of what traditional Chinese culture is supposed to be like. Needless to say, it did not create a better impression.

My impressions started changing when I was 13 or 14. I had been assigned to join the school Chinese Orchestra, and was deeply moved by the music. I felt that a culture that could appreciate music like this could not be merely crass and shallow. Yet I still did not know much about Chinese history or culture. I wrote a long school project about siege warfare when I was 13, and because I got all my material from English books, there was nothing at all about Chinese siege warfare in it. I didn't feel that there was anything very wrong with this - I was getting interested in history and military history at this time, but could only find and read English-language books focusing on European, US, and modern world history. In school when I was 14, they taught us a bit about Confucius, Qin Shihuang, the Tang dynasty, and the Opium War, but it was very dry and simple stuff. My history teachers even brought a big group of us on a field trip to Beijing and Xi'an (that was my first trip abroad without my family), but seeing the famous sites there still left me relatively cold. We were tourists and did not feel at home.

Later in the year, I watched CCTV's new "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" series and also the older series on Tang Xuanzong ("Tang Minghuang"). At around the same time, my new Chinese language tutor lent me a thin book with accounts of the battles of Guandu, Chibi and Yiling in simple Chinese. I began to get interested in the history of a civilization that was more related to me than others, but which I knew next to nothing about. There were names of places and ranks that sounded familiar and yet distant at the same time. I tried reading up more, mostly in English, but there was very little available on ancient China. Despite the lack of historical references, I became a Three Kingdoms enthusiast and read the novels in the simplified, abridged and illustrated lianhuantu edition that my father had bought on a business trip in China.

My grasp of the Chinese language was functionally quite sound due to memorization and the need to speak Chinese to my mother and in church (my church was a Chinese-language one), but I had none of the writing flair in Chinese that I had in English, and I avoided speaking it because my vocabulary was limited to what I had to learn in school. Three things caused it to start improving. I began reading Chinese-language entertainment magazines to find out about Hong Kong and Taiwan pop songs and singers my friends were interested in; I tried to read some Chinese history books in Chinese; and I began corresponding by mail with some young members of a Chinese orchestra from Beijing that had visited my school and performed with my orchestra (this was just one year before e-mail became popular in Singapore, and probably about 4-5 years before it became popular in China... so 'pen-pals' had not yet become obsolete). In order to write letters well in Chinese, and understand Chinese magazines and books well, I had to look in the dictionary often, and that's how I started learning on my own. Another influence came from my father, who got interested in Tang poetry (previously he had read only English literature) and began recommending good poems to me.

When I was 17 and 18, I took History in High School (in Singaporean terms Pre-University, or Junior College), and it included Chinese history from the Opium War to 1949. This got me reading, in English, about late imperial and Republican Chinese history. I began to think of becoming a historian studying Chinese history, but mainly late imperial China. This is where Bo Yang came into the picture again. Towards the end of High School, I bought his Outline History of the Chinese People at a big book sale that was now being held annually (the sale brought a large selection of Chinese books to most Singapore readers for the first time). It had some chapters on the Age of Fragmentation that were well-written and easy to understand, and I discovered that the Three Kingdoms was nothing compared to what came right after it in terms of complexity and drama. Right after I read them, I got some paper and wrote down an outline for a possible book on AOF history.

From the ages of 19 to 21, I was doing compulsory military service. Whenever I found a book on ancient China and the Age of Fragmentation, whether in English or Chinese, I grabbed it and read it in my free time. A series of biographies of Chinese prime ministers, generals, and princes, though not very well-written or edited, helped me with background. My real window into the Age of Fragmentation, however, was the series of translations of the Tongjian Jishi Benmo by Bo Yang (again), newly published in Taiwan and only just becoming available in one major bookshop in Singapore. I pored over each volume covering the AOF, highlighted passages, made notes, and drew additional arrows on the maps to make them more complete (the maps were very good, but for neatness many arrows had been left out). By the time I was out of the army, I was very sure this was what I wanted to study from now on.

15 to 19 were the formative years of my interest in China and Chinese history, but I am by no means any more representative of Singaporeans than GZ or Snowybeagle are. Thousands of young people watched the RTK series with me, and thousands more are now watching the re-run, but only a handful have gotten an interest in Chinese history from it, and I may be the only one who isn't only interested in Three Kingdoms. I'm probably also the only Singaporean student of history who wants to specialize in Age of Fragmentation history, although there are a few academics in my university who do AOF literature and philosophy.

On the level of identity, I don't feel as Singaporean as most Chinese Singaporeans do, and I don't feel as Chinese as most PRC Chinese would. I've basically come to see nationality as irrelevant, and I don't care if I'm a Chinese Singaporean or a Singaporean Chinese - this is probably what the academics call transnationalism. I'm more familiar with Chinese things than most young Chinese Christians here, but I also don't subscribe to many of the values in Chinese culture. I don't see myself as Westernised, but I feel more sympathy for the Western perspective than most Chinese would. I would say I love China, but I don't love it in the way the Chinese do. I'm not 'proud' of China or 'loyal' to China in any way - I think I feel a deep sense of friendliness towards it, that's all. My feelings towards China have probably moved from indifference to infatuation to a mellow friendship. Perhaps neither Chinese nationalists nor China-bashers would be able to really figure it out. To them, I have to be either pro-West or pro-China. I'm actually just pro-history.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Actually, we had talked about our backgrounds 1 1/2 years ago when we started off CHF. Anyway, I've separated this from the 'western forumer and China' thread started off by Fcharton. Just tell us a little about your background and how you got interested in chinese history and culture.

Anyway, here's a background info about myself:

I'm a Taiwanese immigrant in Singapore. Born in Taiwan, I migrated to Singapore when I was around 6 years old (I only attended kindergarten in Taiwan before coming to Singapore). As a result, I was brought up and educated in Singapore most of my life. From 1994-1998 (at age of 19), I studied in Europe (namely 6 months in Germany for german language and 4 years of university in the UK doing mechanical engineering).

I considered myself a Taiwanese only in terms of nationality (ROC), because I still hold a Taiwanese passport and Singapore Permanent Residence. My future generation might be Singaporean if I ever get married and if my children hold a Singaporean nationality. The Taiwanese immigrant community in Singapore is really small.

In terms of cultural identity, I consider myself rather 'chinese', although I'm rather 'multi-cultural' and 'international' having exposed myself to Taiwanese culture, PRC culture, Singapore culture and the western culture.

How I got into chinese history and culture?

As I was born in Taiwan and stayed there for 6 years before migrating to Singapore, I was first exposed to a native chinese culture and chinese-speaking environment as a kid. I used to speak only Hokkien (holo) first but after entering Kindergarten in Taiwan, I started to speak Mandarin only. After 7 years old, I spoke only Mandarin at home and almost no dialect.

When I migrated to Singapore at 6 years old, I can still remember that I find it 'strange' to see kids in Singapore that look like me (i.e. chinese) but who are speaking only english, since I come from Taiwan where every kids speak only chinese. Neverthless, I got used to that cultural difference after sometime.

My parents enrolled me in a chinese school (called Kong Hwa Primary School) in Singapore, because they feel it's important to have some good foundation in chinese roots. The school speaks predominantly chinese, although materials and books are in English. Up to 12 years old, I grew up in a predominantly chinese-speaking environment.

At 13 years old, I entered a secondary school, which is quite a famous English-school in Singapore. It was called Raffles Institution which was founded by the English in 1823. The school has an english-oriented 'rather western' culture where I was exposed and quite influenced by it. The school speaks predominantly english except for the chinese lesson that we still have. I have to say I have no interest in chinese stuff, esp. where exposure to it was quite limited. At 17 years old, I went to Victoria Junior College, which is another english-oriented school. For the past 1 year, chinese seemed to me a subject only to be passed in exam, and I found chinese 'rather tedious' to read and learnt.

What "saves" me later is my trip to Germany in 1994 at the age of 19, where I did a 6 months language course in Germany before commencing my university in the UK. During my study in Germany, I met alot of students from China and Taiwan, and during these cultural exchange, I realise that my knowledge in my own culture (i.e. chinese culture) is lacking and my chinese language is crab. I also realise that China was a growing economy and that chinese language will be important for business in the future.

This is where I began to be interested in chinese culture and decided to study more about chinese history and culture. I also constantly strived to improve my chinese language by writing alot. During my 4 years in the UK, whenever I returned to Singapore, I would borrow chinese history books from the library or buy books from the bookstore. My father, who also know much about chinese history, taught me a great deal about chinese history. He also brought me to visit China, and the more I visited China, I get to know more about China.

I've currently had a collection of books in chinese culture, and I have to say, I hadn't finished reading all of them. The more I read, the more I realise the infinity of chinese knowledge. In June 2004, I founded CHF and from there, I learnt even more by the input of information from so many members here. Even up to today, I continue to read chinese books and constantly exposed myself to chinese. At work, as I had lots of business dealings with China and Taiwan, I'm also often have to use the chinese language.

[urofpersia]

I am going to be try to be brief. (There I said it upfront so will have to stick to it )

I am a second generation Chinese like Yun. My Grandparents, (both sets) came from mainland China. With the exception of my maternal Grandfather all came from Mexian Guangdong Province and are Hakka so I am probably terribly inbred.

My extended family in many ways are traditional Chinese, and I actually grew up more or less under confucian-family values. We celebrated all the festivities including ones which might be regarded as religious although my family was never what you might term pious, mostly it was done for form.

As a young kid however, I was actually quite disdainful of Mandarin. My parents actually *only* spoke to me in English when growing up. I probably only started speaking Mandarin in Kindergarten. Fortunately, by the time I was of school-going age, local Mandarin dramas were all the rage and I soaked them up like so many Singaporeans of my generation. So while my spoken Mandarin was fine, my written left much to be desired. Chinese at primary school level in Singapore is very easy so I got by, but even then it was my least favourite subject because it required memory work, which seemed too much like actually having to 'study'.

I was also a voracious reader from about the age of 7 but only in English. Having a father who also a prolific reader rubbed off, and weekend outings are more often than not spent in bookshops or libraries. I became interested in European (and English) history from then due to the romantic image of the Knight. Thus by the time I got to secondary school I probably knew more about the Medieval period than I did the history of my own country. My knowledge of China at that time was limited to names of dynasty and what I gleamed from period dramas. So naturally lots of errors but I must say the dramas did make things interesting.

My first real brush with Chinese 'History' was through the Romance of the Three Kingdoms in English borrowed from an uncle of mind. I didnt finish it at the time but it certainly had an impact on my perception of Chinese history. A love of the Hong Kong period Dramas base on Jin Yong novels also helped immensely. In my mind then, the past became a real place inhabited by heroes and lovely heroines.

By this time I was in Secondary school and I was barely passing Chinese. I could barely read the papers and each time it was a torturous experience. It was only *after* my O'Levels that I started reading Jin Yong novels that my Chinese improved. Normally I would have given before even I begin but knowing that great stories awaited me within those pages, I forced myself to perseverve. Very soon the individual characters disappeared and all you are seeing is the action, the romance in your head.

But my interest in Chinese history proper began only some 5 years ago when I started to learn more about my people the Hakka. Then about 3 years ago I started wargaming with a group of folks in Singapore. I became fascinated with the Warring States and started reading about it but limited to only to sources in English. I was only when I came to CHF that I was introduced to sources in Chinese. I still retain a wide interest in history but CHF is the only history forum I go to because for other histories it is usually much easier to get information in English. While my written Chinese standards has improved since my school days it is still at best at a secondary level.

In regards to China, I don't have any strong emotional feelings for it. Whatever accomplishments the ancient Chinese did, I dont see why I should feel any pride about it. I didnt have anything to do with it and I suspect neither did my ancestors. I do however like Chinese culture because it is my culture, the culture of my family, I grew up in it, and I would be very sorry if it were to disappear. The Chinese culture I speak of is however so far only limited to family culture. In recent years I have developed an interest in the arts and literature something my peasant ancestors would have little contact with. I am also fascinated by the ingenuity of ancient people (regardless of culture) and China has more than its fair share.

I have no feelings of home for China, although I think many parts of it are beautiful and I want to explore them. I do not have any particular affinity with Chinese people just because they are Chinese. I feel that in general I have more affinity with Singaporeans. I do identify with Singapore and hope that it will continue to remain my home, all my family is here. As a comparison, I find that I am more comfortable in Taiwan than say the US which I put down to cultural affinity. I of course want China to do well, but then I wish the same for everybody. While I believe nationalism has its place, I disapprove of 'us vs them' mentalities which seem prevalent in many parts of the world.

[Yun]

At 13 years old, I entered a secondary school, which is quite a famous English-school in Singapore. It was called Raffles Institution which were founded by the English in 1819. The school has an english-oriented 'rather western' culture where I was exposed and quite influenced by it. The school speaks predominantly english except for the chinese lesson that we still have. I have to say I have no interest in chinese stuff, esp. where exposure to it was quite limited.

I should add that I went to this secondary school too. There was little emphasis on real Chinese culture in the school, not even in the Chinese orchestra. What I mean by 'real' is things like Chinese literature, art and philosophy, as opposed to kitschy stuff like celebrating the Chinese New Year lots of red banners and lanterns and a Chinese orchestra playing New Year songs. This was mainly because there were non-Chinese students in the school, and the school stuck closely to the government policy of emphasising multi-culturalism. The policy was fine in theory, but it reduced ethnic customs and culture (whether Chinese, Malay or Indian) to little more than zoo exhibits for the students on festive days, and students were at all other times immersed in an environment that stressed uniformity rather than diversity.

BTW, you may notice from my account above that Bo Yang of Taiwan has been quite an influence on my interest in Chinese history. While he is an amateur (i.e. self-taught) historian prone to making polemical interpretations of history that support his political views, he is often quite insightful about human nature and I respect his dedication to writing history even at such an old age. He is an iconoclast and a trenchant critique of the ills of traditional Chinese culture, and while I do not share his views that only democracy can save China and that the Chinese people are so easily bullied by tyrants and invaders because they are the most gentle people in the world, I believe his penchant for criticising his own culture has helped me to avoid becoming chauvinistic or sinocentric.

[Howard Fu]

I've read both this thread and Fcharton's. It's interesting to know how foreigners and oversea Chinese became to be interested in Chinese history.
I'm a PRC Chinese. Is that enough to entitle me to love Chinese history? I don't think so. I became interested in Chinese history after I read a book, 'Up Down Five Thousand Years', when I was about 13. It's a book for kids, basically just a series of very brief anecdotes. I have such a feeling of totally swept, not by any events, dynasty or person, but by the general blow of history. So many emperors, generals, ministers, poets etc etc, and their ups and downs. It's just awesome. I think I strongly identify with China from then on. Although many of my views about Chinese history has changed since then, I still feel uncomfortable when people criticise China or Chinese instead of certain events or persons.
I do agree with facharton that when you have two perspectives in your head, say a Chinese one and a western one, it becomes confusing at times. But I say it's not necessarily a bad thing, if you do not take too much pride in one of them. I once watched this soviet WWII movie(I watched much more US movies that soviet's even Chinese, because that's my way to study English). The general attack is gonna take place at nigh, there is a problem not solved yet. How to make sure the troops do not lose direction during the attack? A smart kid figure out a way. They lit two large fire pyres along the attack direction. If you can only see one pyre, you are in the right direction, if you see two you are in the wrong direction. That's my analogy. If you see something right from both Chinese and western perspective you can assure yourself, if else you'd better take more consideration. In fact, that's why I came to CHF. It's painful to conciliate these two perspective sometimes I have to say, but it's better than blind arrogance and bigotory.

[Yun]

I became interested in Chinese history after I read a book, 'Up Down Five Thousand Years', when I was about 13. It's a book for kids, basically just a series of very brief anecdotes. I have such a feeling of totally swept, not by any events, dynasty or person, but by the general blow of history. So many emperors, generals, ministers, poets etc etc, and their ups and downs. It's just awesome.

Yes, that book is a classic. It's probably the first general history of China that many Chinese read, but hopefully not the only one because it has quite a number of traditionalistic, Marxist or nationalistic viewpoints. Maybe someone should start a thread on this book.

For example, this passage right at the end of the book:

道光帝即位后，清王朝越来越衰落，西方资本主义国家乘机加紧侵略，民族危机越来越严重。到了公元１８４０年，也就是道光帝即位的第二十年，爆发了鸦片战争。打这以后，中国从封建社会一步步变为半殖民地半封建社会，英勇的中国人民为了反对资本帝国主义侵略，反对封建统治，前仆后继，开展了不屈不挠的艰苦卓绝的斗争。中国历史进入了一个新的时期——近代史时期。

Translation: After the accession of the Daoguang Emperor, the Qing dynasty became weaker and weaker, and the Western capitalist countries seized this opportunity to intensify their invasions, such that the national crisis became ever more serious. In 1840, which was the 20th year of Daoguang's reign, the Opium War broke out. Form then on, China changed step by step from a feudal society to a semi-colonial and semi-feudal society. The brave Chinese people started an indomitable, hard, and outstanding struggle to resist capitalist imperialist aggression and feudal rule, without fear of the sacrifice and losses. China's history entered a new phase - the modern period.

[Kenneth]

How did I become interested?
I think a foundation comes from watching Monkey on TV as a kid (actually a Japanese series from the late 70's). Wuxia/Kung Fu films were/are also popular so even as a young person some distorted but appealing aspects of Chinese culture were availible.
I had no greater specific knowledge of China anymore than other countries, although my interest in the WW2 era during my university studies meant I was aware of the general 20th century events, ROC & PRC.
Once all grown up I happened to marry a very nice Taiwanese Chinese woman and came to learn about the culture since her family is very traditional (and superstitious which is a source of amusement sometimes) ...but actually Chinese history did not really come into it.
My real obsession started in early 2004, and only from about this time did I really study it.
I was in Taiwan for the New Years period (wonderful fun) and saw Chinese jades for sale, many I was falsely assured were ancient.
They weren't, and quickly turned out to be fake but it was the neolithic period items which attracted me first since I could recognise some aspects of the Maori pre-European stone working in Chinese pre-history too. (I had worked with the New Zealand Archaeological Association on various projects and so my interest was very much in physical items initially, and the story they can tell.)
Even though the jades were not really ancient my in-laws said correctly they still teach about Chinese history and have a use, and so I studied Chinese history as a progression from enjoying the (fake) historical items.
I have had much more luck and learnt my hard lessons over purchasing Chinese antiques and now focus almost excusively on the authentic Zhou-Han period items (bronzes) I can find and therefore also some of the Zhou-Han history to understand its context. A few authentic Chinese bronze arrow heads of incredible antiquity captured my imagination initially in 2004. A nasty lethal feeling point from over 2,000 years ago that can be percieved and reveal human technical ingenuity. Neato, I thought.
'Grand' history is not therefore my central focus, as the lives & intrigue of Kings are grand events. Just like the minutae of archaeological sites in NZ I enjoy learning about the mundane and humble aspects of living in those times. What did they normally have for breakfast? How did they make their tools?....i.e an empathy for the lifestyle and not so much a primary concern over succesions of prime ministers and royal families intrigues. History will tell you much, but it fails to record the most common aspects of life the contemporary people may take for granted.
My earlier interest in most world history was warfare, as it was in University and then what drew me to NZ history (old battlefields and fortifications at the beginning).
I find in particular the evolution of weapons and battles in these ancient Chinese periods most fascinating.
I enjoy the small details, happily studying broken or ugly items that an 'art' collector might not value but for me these provide insight into a broader happening of events in these times.
The origins of the later traditonal Chinese culture are also revealed in their early beliefs, material culture and trappings of this period.

So there is it. I like Chinese history, but I really like material artefact studies and information on the warfare in these same periods.

[Kenneth]

My history teachers even brought a big group of us on a field trip to Beijing and Xi'an (that was my first trip abroad without my family), but seeing the famous sites there still left me relatively cold. We were tourists and did not feel at home.

Quite the opposite with me, Yun. I was very impressed and felt a connection to the place (Xian). We did manage to get off the tourist trail though, and the only places I saw tourists did perhaps have the least impact on me.
The yellow landscape, the tomb mounds in the farmland....and the couple of times we saw open excavations like Han era foundations and West Zhou chariots...left a strong impression. I fancied I could feel the presence of history in those places. I think it is just excitement though since I dont always even get the same feeling off sites in NZ anymore, even when archeological material is lying exposed.
I think intellectually the great age of sites in China comapritively was amazing since I come from a land with less than 1,000 years of human settlement. Just like a drug the more you have the more you need to get the same buzz. China was my crack cocaine, and smoking reefer in NZ just isnt the same. (just an analogy you understand).

[Mei Houwang]

I watched to much historical dramas. Things such as KangXiDiGuo really wanted me to learn history.

[jiangji]

I first got interested in Chinese history when I was 13 by playing Romance of the Three Kingdoms. My mother bought me the book when I was 15 but I have a trouble understanding it and always get confused with the character names. It took me more than 17 months to finish the entire book.

When I was in Form 3 (Malaysia secondary school), I started to learn a little bit about Ming dynasty. From the history textbook, I learn about Zheng He Voyages, Ming princess:Hang Li Po, and Koxinga expels the Dutch. However, the information is very brief and mostly talk about the relationship between Malacca Empire and Ming China. So, I went to the library and start looking for books on Ming dynasty. Form there, I become deeply interested in the Ming history.

I has no knowledge of other major dynasties except Ming until I was 19. I started to learn a little bit about Han, Song and Yuan dynasty through taking a history course in my first year of university. I only become more familiar with the history of Chinese dynasties when GZ creates this forum for members to discuss about chinese history.

Edited by jiangji, 24 January 2006 - 03:56 AM.

[fcharton]

I got interested in China because a friend of mine suggested (in 1984) that we should travel to China. At the time, travelling there was very cheap (I am told this has changed, but back then, one could easily travel there for 3/400 $ a month, the plane tickets were expensive though, the transiberian was cheap, but slow). During the next 2 years (one of them in the army), I studied a little chinese by myself. After coming back, in 1986, I decided to learn a bit more and went to the university to study chinese.

For me, the decisive moment came during my second year in university. We had a course in classical chinese, and it was love at first sight. I had studied Latin and Greek in high school, so I probably had some interest in ancient languages. Many of the texts we studied were excerpts of the Shi Ji. In fact, I got interested in history because of classical chinese (not the other way around).

In the next years (88-90), I travelled, worked and lived in china for quite a while. But over time, I tended to be less interested in "new china", and more in "old china". I suppose it is still the case now.


I was very interested by the stories of Yun and Ur of Persia, which link with the other thread on foreigners views of China. What I find fascinating is that even in a pretty chinese environment, as in Singapore, keeping one's chinese heritage is not automatic. I had noticed this in France: my son once surprised me by explaining that many of his chinese schoolmates, 2nd generation children, spoke very little chinese (my children are bilingual but illiterate, although I hope this will change).

Francois

[urofpersia]

.
I was very interested by the stories of Yun and Ur of Persia, which link with the other thread on foreigners views of China. What I find fascinating is that even in a pretty chinese environment, as in Singapore, keeping one's chinese heritage is not automatic. I had noticed this in France: my son once surprised me by explaining that many of his chinese schoolmates, 2nd generation children, spoke very little chinese (my children are bilingual but illiterate, although I hope this will change).

I think partly because, up till very recently, despite some superficial indicators and the fact that more than 70% of Singporeans is ethnic Chinese, Singapore just isn't very Chinese in certain key areas. This to me is very obvious when one has been to places like Taiwan or Hong Kong.

It wasn't always so. There was a time when Nanyang U. was a reputable Chinese University, famous throughout the region. My Eldest Uncle who was born in 1946 graduated from there. But on entering the workforce in post independance Singapore, he found his degree not well accepted in society. He joined the civil service and has done rather well and in fact he is now semi-retired. But he has been passed over for promotion numerous times to English educated colleagues. Nanyang U. was eventually closed down for various reasons. One suggestion was that it was thought to be a hotbed of communists, which the ruling party at the time was vehemently against.

In fact looking at the history of Singapore in the 60s and early 70s, the picture I gather is one of discrimination against the Chinese educated. Just by speaking English well and being English educated opened up opportunities that are denied the Chinese educated. Only English schools were now allowed, Chinese schools were closed down. Chinese was reduced to a subject to be studied in school. And to paraphrase a character in a well-known local movie called "I Not Stupid" a doctor (he is actually a real-life doctor and he was speaking of his own experiences) who lamented how tough he found Chinese in school and how he could never do well in it, he discovered after getting out of school and into the workforce, "It doesn't matter!" To do well, to climb the corporate ladder, work for MNCs in Singapore, Chinese simply isn't needed. English is the language of commerce and law. Even politicians primarily spoke English in parliament.

Thus you ended with 2 generations (at least) of people who grew up in Singapore where the Chinese language is something you only need within the family to speak with your mother or granny. Then when you start your own family and seeing how English is so important, which language do you choose to speak to your children in? Together with this disdain for our 'mother' tongue, many Chinese customs are being lost as well. Traditional Chinese culture was for a long time perceived as 'lower class' or 'not cool' in American parlance.

I am of the opinion a large part of Chinese culture is transmitted through the language. One can read wonderful stuff about Chinese history but the essense of being Chinese is often conveyed through language, through our many idioms that litter the language, through the many dramas and songs in the language. Without the language I am not sure how much of Chinese culture can be retained. I refer not to 'High Culture' but the everyday family culture that defines us as an ethnic Chinese.

All this is changing now, with the government's shift in attitude and polices, with many younger Chinese Singaporeans who are beginning to discover their roots in an increasingly cosmopolitan world. Whether this is too late for Chinese culture here remains to be seen. However, I believe it is certainly not too late and in fact a resurgence is on the way. Undeniably majority of Chinese Singaporeans still speak in Chinese, but of course the aim is to get the top, the elite, the ones making policies for Singapore in the future, or running MNCs to also embrace the Chinese language and the culture.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Very well said Urofpersia. What you say is true. My parents told me that in the 1980s, the chinese-educated in Singapore are rather discriminated in the work-place. And there are far fewer people who speak Mandarin in Singapore in the 1980s compared to now. I sometimes lamented that this is unfortunate in a country where the chinese are the majority. The chinese language is the means in which to propagate the chinese culture and roots. I do see the importance of chinese language.

But from 1990s and 2000 onwards, I think, the chinese language is growing more and more important in Singapore, , partly because alot of companies in Singapore are doing business with China and Taiwan. There are actually more Mandarin-speakers in 2000 than in 1980s, despite the criticism that the chinese standard in Singapore is deteriorating.

There is no doubt that China is a growing economy and power in Asia. Many english-educated Singaporean also find it difficult to venture into China to do business, partly because they do not know the chinese language and culture well enough. In fact, they would look 'weird' if they cannot speak chinese in China. This forces them to start learning chinese.

If I'm not wrong, many young Singaporean are discovering their roots either during late teens or 20s, perhaps after traveling to China or Taiwan. I think the Singapore government is currently trying to push a wave of learning chinese in Singapore.

I hope the elite in Singapore are those who are bilingually good in both English and Chinese language. I'm positive that this trend will continue.

[urofpersia]

Actually I think my use of the term 'discriminate' in my last post may be too strong. I perhaps should have used 'marginalised'.