8 replies to this topic

[vanguard]

I've noticed that in present day Sichuan, despite being in south China, its people look nothing like cantonese or fujianese and other southern Chinese. Is it because that region was heavily colonized by the more northern Qin and Han peoples or is it just because the native Di and Yi peoples were not at all related to the Yue peoples who inhabited southern China at the time?

[qrasy]

Hey, hey, Di received ancient racial stereotype while Yue didn't, Di is more of discinct race.

For present Sichuanese, see this discussion: http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=9401
"Manchu slaughtered Sichuanese?"

I'm not sure what Shu ethnicity was.

[Yun]

Hey, hey, Di received ancient racial stereotype while Yue didn't, Di is more of discinct race.

Are you referring to Di as in the Di 氐 of the Five 'Hu' Barbarians and the Former Qin? Or the Di people 氐人 in the Shanhai Jing who are said to have human heads but fish bodies without legs?

If it's the former, then I haven't seen any distinct phenotype used to describe them, except that they braided their hair. I think you mentioned elsewhere that they were Australoid in appearance - could you give me some references?

Are the Ba and Shu peoples essentially the same?

[qrasy]

uh- should be that I was wrong.
I meant the former Di.
The stereotype and name "Di" came from Qiang. Qiang described Di as being ugly and like Maccacca — hence the legend of "fairy and monkey" as the origin of Tibetans (after Di and Qiang mixed). In fact "Di" meant "low" in Qiang language.
http://www.pkucn.com...d=130521&page=5
<was Di confused with Qiang? In the age of fragmentation I see Di-Qiang rather than Di alone. >

Edited by qrasy, 24 January 2006 - 07:11 AM.

[Yun]

was Di confused with Qiang? In the age of fragmentation I see Di-Qiang rather than Di alone

No, they were different ethnic groups. But because they both came from the west and southwest, they were often grouped together, just like Hu-Jie (Xiongnu-Jie) or Jie-Hu (Jie-Xiongnu).

曾经在中国南北朝的历史舞台上叱咤风云的氐族，现在仅存于四川和甘肃边界地区，有着惊人的Y 染色体遗传结构——全部的D 型。难道他们也是棕色土著的后代？我们恍然大悟，原来在汉藏语中，“氐”这个词，从来就是“底层”的意思。羌人来到青藏高原，把原本就在这里的土著居民称为“氐族”，因为他们“原抵”就在那里。我们再看羌族的结构，他们也含有部分的D 型，但还是以O2 为主。再看华族，就几乎不含有D 型了。所以，“氐—羌—华”原初大概就是这么分化的。而历史上对西戎民族的认识，一开始就有氐和羌的不同概念。我们进一步计算当地的D 和O 的年代，发现D 至少在四万年以上，而O 却最多纔有一万年历史。青藏高原上的D 型成分与安达曼群岛棕色人种的D 型应该是有关系的。

Shen Jiong is correct - the Di and Qiang are culturally and probably genetically different. But I think you misunderstand him when he says that 氐 meant 底层 and 原抵 - he means 'low level' as in 'first' or 'original' layer, i.e. aboriginal inhabitants. There is no derogatory meaning implied.

I have not found any Qiang descriptions of the Di as being ugly or maqaque-like. The only similar story I can find is from the Bowu Zhi by Zhang Hua of the Western Jin. He says that in the mountains of Shu there are creatures like macaques who kidnap beautiful women and have children with them. The sons are sent back to the women's families and if the families don't adopt them, the mother dies. Hence the families all dare not reject these hybrid children. When the sons grow up, they look exactly like humans, and they all take Yang as their surname. Thus there are many Yang on the western border of Shu - these are all descendants of the macaque-creatures.

Zhang Hua's story was an indirect reference to the Di of Wudu Prefecture (Chouchi), the original homeland of the Di. Ever since the late Han (around 296) they had been ruled by the Yang family, and the Yang continued to maintain a semi-independent state in Chouchi for most of the Age of Fragmentation. But I don't know if this is evidence that the Di looked like monkeys.

Another thing about the Di is that they used the word 'zhao' to mean 'king', just like the Six Zhao of the Tang dynasty in Yunnan (of which Nanzhao became the strongest). Scholars have long suspected based on this that the Di are related to the Yunnan ethnicities. Another source says that they claim descent from the dog Panhu (who married an imperial princess) - this links them to the Panhu Man (Panhu Barbarians) who are ancestors of today's Yao tribes. See this thread for the legend of Panhu: http://www.chinahist...p?showtopic=192

[qrasy]

There is no derogatory meaning implied.

I have not found any Qiang descriptions of the Di as being ugly or maqaque-like.

Well, he wrote:
1."难道他们也是棕色土著的后代？"
2."在藏族起源的神话传说中，雅砻土著被转化成了丑陋的猕猴，羌人则是仙女，两者婚配繁衍出了藏族。"
3."其实雅砻土著属于棕色人种，在羌人的审美观念中，他们的确是非常丑陋的。"
In his posts for other parts of the article, he also associated "棕色人" with "Australoids".

Another thing about the Di is that they used the word 'zhao' to mean 'king', just like the Six Zhao of the Tang dynasty in Yunnan (of which Nanzhao became the strongest). Scholars have long suspected based on this that the Di are related to the Yunnan ethnicities.

Might the "Zhao" be a loanword?

Another source says that they claim descent from the dog Panhu (who married an imperial princess) - this links them to the Panhu Man (Panhu Barbarians) who are ancestors of today's Yao tribes. See this thread for the legend of Panhu: http://www.chinahist...p?showtopic=192

[Yun]

Might the "Zhao" be a loanword?

Perhaps. A reason for the old (now disproven) theory that Nanzhao was a Tai state is that 'Chao' was also a title of royalty among the Tai (e.g. Thai and Lao). Thus the word may have spread across ethnic groups.

[vanguard]

i have also read that as much as 3/4 of modern sichuan people today are descended from migrants from Jiangxi and Cantonese, if so, how much of this can be corroborated?

[Yun]

You can continue that line of discussion on this thread that Qrasy already mentioned: http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=9401