33 replies to this topic

[Rong Qin Wang]

i'm always wondering was manchukuo a revival of the qing dynasty or viewed as a separate totally different entity? How was the state like ? And was it just a dervied of chinese traditional customs with the japanese behind them as the main rulers?

Zunjing de China History Forum members,

Hmm, I really cannot see how Manchukuo was considered as an extension of Qing Dynasty since Puyi obviously was just a puppet Emperor installed by the Japanese without having any power! There are also numerous other reasons why Qing Dynasty ended in 1912 that had been mentioned by other members, so it is not necessary for me to repeat anything.

I am a little confused about the Chinese language. Prior to Grand Khan Nuharchi, there was no written language for the Manchurians as they were all from barbaric tribes. I believe the current Chinese written language is uniformed with only vastly different dialects from various regions. Most of the time, people will just refer to the Chinese spoken language to be either Cantonese or Mandarin. The word “Mandarin” sort of looks like “Manchurian.” So, is Mandarin a spoken dialect used by the Manchurian Chinese, while Cantonese being the dominant vernacular for the Han Chinese? Or am I completely off based and both these spoken languages belonged to the Han Chinese?

Xie Xie,

[QinShi HuangDi]

Zunjing de China History Forum members,

Hmm, I really cannot see how Manchukuo was considered as an extension of Qing Dynasty since Puyi obviously was just a puppet Emperor installed by the Japanese without having any power! There are also numerous other reasons why Qing Dynasty ended in 1912 that had been mentioned by other members, so it is not necessary for me to repeat anything.

I am a little confused about the Chinese language. Prior to Grand Khan Nuharchi, there was no written language for the Manchurians as they were all from barbaric tribes. I believe the current Chinese written language is uniformed with only vastly different dialects from various regions. Most of the time, people will just refer to the Chinese spoken language to be either Cantonese or Mandarin. The word “Mandarin” sort of looks like “Manchurian.” So, is Mandarin a spoken dialect used by the Manchurian Chinese, while Cantonese being the dominant vernacular for the Han Chinese? Or am I completely off based and both these spoken languages belonged to the Han Chinese?

Xie Xie,

Mandarin does not have much connection with Manchu language. So it is Han Chinese that use and "own" Mandarin.


I have another question, but it is rather of geographical nature. What exactly is Manchuria? It is definitely not a part of China if we ask Chinese. Westerners use Manchuria to describe a part of China at and around Heilongjiang. Right? I asked several Chinese and they don't refer to Manchuria as a part of China. Not as a province not as a geographical entity. When I explain the position of it, they say that there is Heilongjiang. So is the Manchuria a western name for a part of China that cannot be used in China?

[lifezard]

Mandarin does not have much connection with Manchu language. So it is Han Chinese that use and "own" Mandarin.
I have another question, but it is rather of geographical nature. What exactly is Manchuria? It is definitely not a part of China if we ask Chinese. Westerners use Manchuria to describe a part of China at and around Heilongjiang. Right? I asked several Chinese and they don't refer to Manchuria as a part of China. Not as a province not as a geographical entity. When I explain the position of it, they say that there is Heilongjiang. So is the Manchuria a western name for a part of China that cannot be used in China?

manchuria refers commonly to the modern 3 provinces (i.e. liaoning, jilin and heilongjiang) to the immediate northeast of beijing, outside the great wall.. and some say parts of russian far east, however this was not to say that the whole of manchuria should be treated as the manchus homeland.. southern liaoning has been settled by the han and other northern tribes like xianbei, khitans before the manchu came to the picture, while heilongjiang s people, while ethnically related to the manchus were not exactly manchu proper.. the real manchu/jurchen homeland should be jilin

[QinShi HuangDi]

manchuria refers commonly to the modern 3 provinces (i.e. liaoning, jilin and heilongjiang) to the immediate northeast of beijing, outside the great wall.. and some say parts of russian far east, however this was not to say that the whole of manchuria should be treated as the manchus homeland.. southern liaoning has been settled by the han and other northern tribes like xianbei, khitans before the manchu came to the picture, while heilongjiang s people, while ethnically related to the manchus were not exactly manchu proper.. the real manchu/jurchen homeland should be jilin

So, actually, Manchuria is a western term? Chinese hence would not name Manchuria as Manchuria 满洲? 东北 is a modern synonym for that part of China. A big dilemma for me.

[Richard Lim]

So, actually, Manchuria is a western term? Chinese hence would not name Manchuria as Manchuria 满洲? 东北 is a modern synonym for that part of China. A big dilemma for me.

I have this idea that it would have been referred to as 東三省. In court memorials from the late 17th century for instance, the emperors would refer to certain tribes in the Amur River basin as ones whose loyalties they could not count on and whom they had to cultivate carefully. In short the Manchus ruling in China did not categorically regard all the tribes in those territories as Manchus (and by extension the territories themselves as "Manchuria").

Edited by Richard Lim, 14 January 2007 - 09:08 PM.

[galvatron prime]

I think Manchuria is refer as Manchu peninsula in term of geography,this word used in malaysia school texbook in 1990an ,Manchuria is more know as homeland of the Manchu Tungus speaker ,and they was no Manchu before 1636 .

[lifezard]

I think Manchuria is refer as Manchu peninsula in term of geography,this word used in malaysia school texbook in 1990an ,Manchuria is more know as homeland of the Manchu Tungus speaker ,and they was no Manchu before 1636 .

never heard of Manchu Peninsula (or manzhou bandao)... are you referring to the Liaodong Peninsula?

[Rong Qin Wang]

Zunjing de China History Forum members,

Hmm, I really don’t have a lot of knowledge on this issue; however, I have always thought that the term “ Manchuria ” only came into existence after the fall of Qing Dynasty. Were not some Manchurians pushed back to their own homeland by the Han Chinese after the revolution of 1911? I don’t think people living under the Qing Dynasty prior to the conquest of Beijing referred to their homeland as Manchuria in the same way that the ancient Chinese did not call their nation China . Manchuria was a much more recent term, which came about after the prevalent concept of nationalism. By calling their homeland Manchuria, the Manchurians now have a national identity. The concept should not have existed prior to the fall of China's monarchial system.

never heard of Manchu Peninsula (or manzhou bandao)... are you referring to the Liaodong Peninsula?

Yeah, I have also never heard of the Manzhou Bandao. I assume Galvatron must have referred to the Liaodong Bandao, where Grand Khan Nurhachi began his significant military career by uniting all the Jurchen tribes.

[lifezard]

Zunjing de China History Forum members,

Hmm, I really don’t have a lot of knowledge on this issue; however, I have always thought that the term “ Manchuria ” only came into existence after the fall of Qing Dynasty. Were not some Manchurians pushed back to their own homeland by the Han Chinese after the revolution of 1911? I don’t think people living under the Qing Dynasty prior to the conquest of Beijing referred to their homeland as Manchuria in the same way that the ancient Chinese did not call their nation China . Manchuria was a much more recent term, which came about after the prevalent concept of nationalism. By calling their homeland Manchuria, the Manchurians now have a national identity. The concept should not have existed prior to the fall of China's monarchial system.
Yeah, I have also never heard of the Manzhou Bandao. I assume Galvatron must have referred to the Liaodong Bandao, where Grand Khan Nurhachi began his significant military career by uniting all the Jurchen tribes.

nurhaci did not began his campaign on the liaodong peninsula.. his own people, the jianzhou jurchens actually lived close to the yalu river north of the liaodong peninsula... he campiagned that quite late, after he had subjugated the haixi jurchens

[Rong Qin Wang]

nurhaci did not began his campaign on the liaodong peninsula.. his own people, the jianzhou jurchens actually lived close to the yalu river north of the liaodong peninsula... he campiagned that quite late, after he had subjugated the haixi jurchens

Zunjing de Lifezard,

Thank you for correcting my mistake! I guess I have made some mistakes in my language that had caused you to misunderstand what I am really trying to say.

I never meant to say that Grand Khan Nurhachi began his military campaigns on the Liaodong Bandao. I was initially trying to say that Grand Khan Nurhachi’s own people, Jianzhou Jurchen, were originally from the Liaodong Bandao since they lived close to the Yalu River north of the Bandao.

If I have made some further mistakes, then please correct me; I would really appreciate it!

Xie Xie,

[lifezard]

Zunjing de Lifezard,

Thank you for correcting my mistake! I guess I have made some mistakes in my language that had caused you to misunderstand what I am really trying to say.

I never meant to say that Grand Khan Nurhachi began his military campaigns on the Liaodong Bandao. I was initially trying to say that Grand Khan Nurhachi’s own people, Jianzhou Jurchen, were originally from the Liaodong Bandao since they lived close to the Yalu River north of the Bandao.

If I have made some further mistakes, then please correct me; I would really appreciate it!

Xie Xie,

if you have a map, perhaps i can help point the rough area where the jianzhou jurchens were active..

outside of shenyang (liaoning) east to the direction of fushun all the way to the yalu river... nurhaci s 1st capitals Fe Ala and Hetu Ala are in the region.

i must also correct myself on 1 thing.. you are not wrong to state that area is also refered to Liaodong... it just confuses people that there is also the Peninsula which is also named Liaodong and is incidentally in the Liaodong region

[QinShi HuangDi]

if you have a map, perhaps i can help point the rough area where the jianzhou jurchens were active..

outside of shenyang (liaoning) east to the direction of fushun all the way to the yalu river... nurhaci s 1st capitals Fe Ala and Hetu Ala are in the region.

i must also correct myself on 1 thing.. you are not wrong to state that area is also refered to Liaodong... it just confuses people that there is also the Peninsula which is also named Liaodong and is incidentally in the Liaodong region

Nevertheless, Nurhachi died before his people seized Liaodong peninsula. His son Hong Taiji ended the task.

[QinShi HuangDi]

Partly true, but your statement is over-exagerated.

Further, for your reference, "Mandarin" in English originally means "Man Da Ren (滿大人) Jiang De Hua" meaning "Manchu Noble men's language", designating "Manchu language", which later took on the meaning of "Standard language" .

So, at that time, when a European asks in English whether you spak Mandarin or not, if you say "Yes", you mean you speak Manju gisun (Manchu language:滿大人語), not Chinese (漢語).

This (滿大人語), ) was the 國語 (national language) back then.

Man Da Ren? Are you sure? Can you back up this theory with some evidence?

Why asking?

http://en.wikipedia....in_(bureaucrat)

Here you can see why. Another Q that does not have a definite answer, just theories.

[wlee15]

Man Da Ren? Are you sure? Can you back up this theory with some evidence?

Why asking?

http://en.wikipedia....in_(bureaucrat)

Here you can see why. Another Q that does not have a definite answer, just theories.

chinghiz was banned some time ago so he won't be able to answer your question but that wikipedia article is fair.

[lifezard]

Nevertheless, Nurhachi died before his people seized Liaodong peninsula. His son Hong Taiji ended the task.

actually, the various prefectures in the liaodong peninsula (Jinzhou, Gaizhou etc) were already under jurchen control in nurhaci s time... in fact, the whole area east of the liao river, nearby shenyang (hence the name liaodong, dong means east) were already under jurchen control by the time nurhaci died