90 replies to this topic

[WuXiaHer0]

I discovered that Korean and Japanese New Year fall on the same day as the Chinese New Year.

[qrasy]

They don't always line up. Tibetans use a calendar system that is mostly chinese in origin, but also incorporates solar elements from an Indian source, the Kalācakratantra (dus kyi khor lo rgyud). This results in some variations as in last year when lo gsar was celebrated February 25th, while the Chinese lunar new year was celebrated January 26th. It is also confusing because the Tibetans in a mdo/Qīnghaǐ celebrate using a lunar calendar closer to the Chinese system.

Nothing strange with the difference.

This thing also happens when comparing with Vietnamese calendar. It's timezone that matters, as when "the first of the month" falls depends on the time of when the (apparent) location of sun and moon reach certain positions relative to earth.
http://en.wikipedia....iki/Tsagaan_Sar shows difference of the starting dates in 2005.
Even PRC and Hong Kong once had different dates of Chinese new year.

11:30pm at one place can be 12:30am at another place.
And under some rare circumstances, one month difference can also be observed as the "additional month" also depends on the time of when the (apparent) location of sun and moon reach certain positions relative to earth.

Same difference can also be assumed for Mongolian and Korean calendar.

I discovered that Korean and Japanese New Year fall on the same day as the Chinese New Year.

Korean new year (seol-nal) is usually on the same date, but if I'm not mistaken, Japanese no longer celebrates the Gantan in the traditional date.

Edited by qrasy, 12 February 2010 - 10:57 AM.

[xng]

I discovered that Korean and Japanese New Year fall on the same day as the Chinese New Year.

Only the countries in the first post of this thread still celebrate Lunar New year as public holidays for the whole nation.

Japan DON'T celebrate since 1873.

Edited by xng, 12 February 2010 - 11:09 AM.

[xng]

February 25th, while the Chinese lunar new year was celebrated January 26th. It is also confusing because the Tibetans in a mdo/Qīnghaǐ celebrate using a lunar calendar closer to the Chinese system.

One day difference is not considered significant since the moon takes 24 hours to traverse the whole globe. It depends on the time zone of that place.

Edited by xng, 12 February 2010 - 11:13 AM.

[JamyangNorbu]

One day difference is not considered significant since the moon takes 24 hours to traverse the whole globe. It depends on the time zone of that place.

Please look at the dates again. It was one month difference, not a one day difference. An additional month is periodically added to the Tibetan calendar to synchronize the lunar and solar cycles.

[JamyangNorbu]

Nothing strange with the difference.

I am not clear on what you are saying. To be clear I didn't say there was anything strange about there being a difference. It is just that the 2 dates are not always the same because of the difference in origins, and pointed out that the Tibetan new year (lo gsar) is calculated using a different system.

This thing also happens when comparing with Vietnamese calendar. It's timezone that matters, as when "the first of the month" falls depends on the time of when the (apparent) location of sun and moon reach certain positions relative to earth.

You are describing timezones. Of course there are timezone differences, but what is going on in the difference of the dates is not a timezone issue.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Tsagaan_Sar shows difference of the starting dates in 2005.

The Mongolian new year is based on the Tibetan calculation of the new year. From the wiki article you linked to:

Tsagaan Sar (Mongolian: Цагаан сар, white moon or white month) is the Mongolian lunisolar New Year festival. It is often celebrated around the same time as the Chinese New Year (sometimes a lunar month later). However, the Mongolian Tsagaan Sar is culturally more related to the Tibetan New Year or Losar than to the Chinese New Year.
The White Moon holiday is celebrated two months after the first new moon following the winter solstice. In 2009, White Moon fell on February 25, and in 2010, it will be on February 14. Tsagaan Sar is one of the most important Mongolian holidays.[1]

Even PRC and Hong Kong once had different dates of Chinese new year.

I don't know how the systems of calculation used differed, so I can't comment on the applicability to this topic.

11:30pm at one place can be 12:30am at another place.

And under some rare circumstances, one month difference can also be observed as the "additional month" also depends on the time of when the (apparent) location of sun and moon reach certain positions relative to earth.

Again, these cases are time zone differences, not differences in the system of calculation.

Edited by JamyangNorbu, 12 February 2010 - 12:07 PM.

[sg_han]

Oh ya, even though CNY is not a holiday in USA but if I did not rmb wrongly, cny is a public holiday in new york right?

[WuXiaHer0]

Oh ya, even though CNY is not a holiday in USA but if I did not rmb wrongly, cny is a public holiday in new york right?

I don't think so. CNY is not a major holiday in US. People still go to work and so on but I think the Chinese there are most likely to take leave and return to their homeland or else.

Wikipedia:

A few countries around the world regularly issue postage stamps and numismatic coins to commemorate Chinese New Year. Although Chinese New Year is not institutionalized as public holiday, these countries recognize the significant number of their citizens who are of Chinese origin. The countries and territories that sometimes do so include Australia, Canada, Christmas Island, France, New Zealand, the United States, the Philippines and other countries.

[qrasy]

I am not clear on what you are saying. To be clear I didn't say there was anything strange about there being a difference. It is just that the 2 dates are not always the same because of the difference in origins, and pointed out that the Tibetan new year (lo gsar) is calculated using a different system.

I mean, even within Chinese-derived calendar systems, they are differences already. I even mentioned that once upon a time Hong Kong and Beijing celebrated the date differently.
System of calculation is probably nearly exactly or exactly the same apart from timezone differences, otherwise that can't explain why they coincide more than 90% of the time.
And it also can't explain why, after drifting by one month, they coincide again.

You are describing timezones. Of course there are timezone differences, but what is going on in the difference of the dates is not a timezone issue.

It can be simply timezone issues.
For example, let me illustrate this with a "fictional calendar". A person make a calendar based on detailed calculation for the time of new or full moon, he would calculate it up to a few minutes of accuracy.
Suppose he calculated "the day after tomorrow, on 11:30pm there will be new moon" so he set 'the day after tomorrow' as the 1st of his new month in his calendar. But suppose he was on a different time zone that is one hour faster instead. He would say "it's the day after the day after tomorrow 00:30am" so we would get 'the day after the day after tomorrow' as the 1st of his month instead. Then we have 1 day of difference.

The Mongolian new year is based on the Tibetan calculation of the new year. From the wiki article you linked to:

I mean, not only within Chinese systems that there can be difference. Even within Mongolian calendars, timezone matters on when the new year is assumed.

An additional month is periodically added to the Tibetan calendar to synchronize the lunar and solar cycles.

Same happened with Chinese. One lunar month is added to a year under some rules. But the rules are a bit complicated as it also involves "solar longitude". Let me illustrate this with a "fictional calendar".
For example, if one adds the rule to his calendar such that each 'proper month' has to contain "something with a solar longitude of multiple of 30" (suppose he call it a "midmonth solar event").
Then if the 'midmonth solar event' falls on the last day of his month, on 11:30pm, in his timezone he would mark the month as "usual month" of the year. And the year would have 12 months if no other month qualifies as 'additional month'.
But under different timezone that is one hour faster, it doesn't fall in the month but rather the 1st day of the next one, on 12:30am. (also, if the ending date of the previous month is one day earlier, the 'midmonth solar event' will also fall in the other day even if it's not on time as late as 11:30pm)
So he mark the same month as an "additional month". If his system is such that there are only "additional month" but no "excluded month", then we have one month of difference within his own system.
[of course, as 12 lunar months is shorter than 1 year, sooner or later the calendar in the other timezone will be forced to add an additional month when the original timezone find it unnecessary]

Having one month of difference doesn't necessarily show that the system of calculation is different more than the timezone.

Edited by qrasy, 13 February 2010 - 01:36 AM.

[xng]

Please look at the dates again. It was one month difference, not a one day difference. An additional month is periodically added to the Tibetan calendar to synchronize the lunar and solar cycles.

If its one month earlier than spring, that would be winter. If its one month later than earliest spring, then spring would have started one month too late. Neither is plausible.

The Mongolian celebration is similar to CNY due to the reunion dinner. Quote here:

http://thestar.com.m...&sec=lifeliving

“We Mongolians celebrate Chinese New Year but we call it Tsagaan Sar or White Moon. It is not only an ancient holiday marking the end of winter and the beginning of spring, but it is also a time for unification and reinforcing social bonds. It falls on Feb 14 this year.

“Families all across the country stock up on food, dairy, mild milk vodka and other specialties as relatives, neighbours and friends will be treated to a lavish meal. We will also thoroughly clean our homes for the new year.

“The reunion dinner on New Year eve is very important for Mongolians because we believe that if we eat well, we will not face hunger that year. This is also the only time we see our relatives."

Edited by xng, 13 February 2010 - 04:48 AM.

[qrasy]

If its one month earlier than spring, that would be winter. If its one month later than earliest spring, then spring would have started one month too late. Neither is plausible.

Remember that Chinese calendar is not a "purely solar" calendar in which the times for seasons are virtually fixed from year to year.
In Western calendar, Chinese New Year sometimes fall in January and sometimes February whereas the "Solar Term (節氣)" named "Lichun 立春" is "always" in February 2th-6th (usually 3-5 if I'm not wrong).

Having New Year nearly half months before or after the "立春" is possible, but the difference between "立春" and "正月初一" (1st date of the 1st month) cannot be appreciably more than half months because of the intercalary months (閏月). [And half month, is, btw, not a long time compared with the length of the seasons which is approximately 3 months.]

One month difference between the new years of "identical" Lunisolar calendars is possible if one is January (half months before 立春) and the other one is in February (half months after 立春).

Edited by qrasy, 13 February 2010 - 06:03 AM.

[JamyangNorbu]

I mean, even within Chinese-derived calendar systems, they are differences already. I even mentioned that once upon a time Hong Kong and Beijing celebrated the date differently.
System of calculation is probably nearly exactly or exactly the same apart from timezone differences, otherwise that can't explain why they coincide more than 90% of the time.
And it also can't explain why, after drifting by one month, they coincide again.

It can be simply timezone issues.
For example, let me illustrate this with a "fictional calendar". A person make a calendar based on detailed calculation for the time of new or full moon, he would calculate it up to a few minutes of accuracy.
Suppose he calculated "the day after tomorrow, on 11:30pm there will be new moon" so he set 'the day after tomorrow' as the 1st of his new month in his calendar. But suppose he was on a different time zone that is one hour faster instead. He would say "it's the day after the day after tomorrow 00:30am" so we would get 'the day after the day after tomorrow' as the 1st of his month instead. Then we have 1 day of difference.

I mean, not only within Chinese systems that there can be difference. Even within Mongolian calendars, timezone matters on when the new year is assumed.

Same happened with Chinese. One lunar month is added to a year under some rules. But the rules are a bit complicated as it also involves "solar longitude". Let me illustrate this with a "fictional calendar".
For example, if one adds the rule to his calendar such that each 'proper month' has to contain "something with a solar longitude of multiple of 30" (suppose he call it a "midmonth solar event").
Then if the 'midmonth solar event' falls on the last day of his month, on 11:30pm, in his timezone he would mark the month as "usual month" of the year. And the year would have 12 months if no other month qualifies as 'additional month'.
But under different timezone that is one hour faster, it doesn't fall in the month but rather the 1st day of the next one, on 12:30am. (also, if the ending date of the previous month is one day earlier, the 'midmonth solar event' will also fall in the other day even if it's not on time as late as 11:30pm)
So he mark the same month as an "additional month". If his system is such that there are only "additional month" but no "excluded month", then we have one month of difference within his own system.
[of course, as 12 lunar months is shorter than 1 year, sooner or later the calendar in the other timezone will be forced to add an additional month when the original timezone find it unnecessary]

Having one month of difference doesn't necessarily show that the system of calculation is different more than the timezone.

I'm sorry but the system of calculation is different. I am not relying on just describing timezone difference, but describing the cultural influences that account for the difference in calculation methods.

The fact that the new years dates often correspond is due, as I said in the first post, to the fact that the Tibetan calendar is mostly based on some system of lunar calculation imported in the distant past from Tang or pre-Tang China. No doubt about that, no argument. I also won't argue that there are not different calculation systems in China that account for different dates under certain circumstances.

However, there are absolutely differences in the various calculation systems of China and Tibet since the system of the Kalācakratantra (Wheel of Time Tantra) was introduced into Tibet in the 11th century from India. We can see this in the most influential and famous Tibetan astrological/astronomical calculation text, the bai DU rya dkar po (The White Vaiḍūrya), written by sde srid sangs rgyas rgya mtsho.

The Kalācakratantra was not among the very few anuttarayogatantra-s translated into China at this time afaik, and if it was it did not have the same far reaching influence that it did in Tibet.

To be clear, this is not a Tibetan nationalist argument. I am not a Tibetan, and am irritated by nationalist arguments of all persuasions, especially the Tibetan ones since I am exposed to them so often in my studies.

All the best,
JN

Edited by JamyangNorbu, 13 February 2010 - 09:53 AM.

[qrasy]

The fact that the new years dates often correspond is due, as I said in the first post, to the fact that the Tibetan calendar is mostly based on some system of lunar calculation imported in the distant past from Tang or pre-Tang China.

Though at that time presumably Chinese also already had 'complete' solar considerations.

I also won't argue that there are not different calculation systems in China that account for different dates under certain circumstances.

I found that inside China the intercalary months had some varying treatments in China throughout history, i.e. different calculation methods within itself (already excluding timezone). The modern one is quite calculation-intensive (I have seen a computer code of it).

Sun's mean motion was used for e.g. Taichu Chinese calendar until Tang dynasty (the calculation was quite simple: it's based on 2 rational numbers [fractions]), where parabolas were used (the system gets more complicated; Wikipedia doesn't state what happened in Tang dynasty to motivate such a change in calendar system).
[I even see a longer list in http://zh.wikipedia....rg/zh-tw/历法 ]

And the modern Chinese calendar it's based on... a system by Adam Schall (Western astronomy).

Those don't really change the "concept/motivation" though (use moon cycles, with new moon as 1st day; if certain solar term is too far, add one month; use 立春, 345° from vernal equinox, as a reference for new year), as it only changes how one actually calculate the solar terms and the intercalary months (even though sometimes it can cause one month of difference).

But indeed, to be stricter, I have to say that technically those are all different calendars.

However, there are absolutely differences in the various calculation systems of China and Tibet since the system of the Kalācakratantra (Wheel of Time Tantra) was introduced into Tibet in the 11th century from India. We can see this in the most influential and famous Tibetan astrological/astronomical calculation text, the bai DU rya dkar po (The White Vaiḍūrya), written by sde srid sangs rgyas rgya mtsho.

What calendar-related things are calculated/explained inside the book?

Edited by qrasy, 13 February 2010 - 10:55 AM.

[sg_han]

祝全球華人 新年快樂 萬事如意 虎年行大運 身體健康 心想事成

온 世界 韓國人들에게 새해 福 많이 받으시고 健康하세요. 2010年 庚寅年에 幸福이 가득하시기를 바래요

To all Chinese and non Chinese around the world, Xin Niang Kuai Le, Happy New year! Gong Xi Fa Chai!


and the hokkien way.....SIN NEE HUAT ZAI! SIN TE GIN KONG! KYONG HEE HUAT ZAI!=)

[Yizheng]

Now it is already the New Year, so I can only add a belated best New Year wishes to everyone.
Lunar New Year is not an official holiday in Russia, but it is celebrated as the real New Year by Russia's Buddhist peoples such as Kalmyks and Buryats. President Medvedev congratulated all the country's Buddhists on the New Year.
It coincided yesterday with a popular holiday, maslenitsa, which has its roots in old Slavic traditions of the pagan times and celebrates the coming of spring. The main thing is to eat pancakes, because for Russian Orthodox people it is the last chance to eat that kind of food before the long fast begins that will go till Easter. In pagan times, pancakes were the symbol of the sun. So yesterday in Moscow there was a parade and people eating pancakes everywhere.
Everyone here is aware of lunar New Year, I reckon Russians would be happy to celebrate it too, because Russians like holidays in general and are enthusiastic about celebrating anything if it is an excuse to have a party