65 replies to this topic

[Yun]

Talking about history, no one has responded to this story that I mentioned on another thread:

BTW, there is a funny story about Taiwan in the Ming Shi that I just read. It says that when Zheng He was sailing his fleet around the region, every country rushed to pay tribute except the natives of Taiwan. This was because the Taiwan tribes feared the sea, did not like sailing (quite a far cry from their Austronesian ancestors), and avoided contact with all surrounding countries. Zheng He was angry with them for this, and gave the head of each household a bronze bell to wear around his neck, symbolizing that this was a country of dogs. A few generations later, however these bells became a prized heirloom among the Taiwanese aborigines.

This is from the Dynastic History of the Ming dynasty, written by the Qing court. It's not some TI propaganda. You can see why this is the one story about Zheng He that is not being mentioned at all amid the current enthusiasm over his voyages.

[naruwan]

Talking about history, no one has responded to this story that I mentioned on another thread:
This is from the Dynastic History of the Ming dynasty, written by the Qing court. It's not some TI propaganda. You can see why this is the one story about Zheng He that is not being mentioned at all amid the current enthusiasm over his voyages.

This is the quote from Ming Shi regarding Taiwan:

雞籠山在彭湖嶼東北，故名北港，又名東番，去泉州甚邇。地多深山大澤，聚落星
散。無君長，有十五社，社多者千人，少或五六百人。無徭賦，以子女多者為雄，聽其
號令。雖居海中，酷畏海，不善操舟，老死不與領國往來。
永樂時，鄭和遍歷東西洋，靡不獻琛恐後，獨東番遠避不至。和惡之，家貽一銅鈴，
俾掛諸項，蓋擬之狗國也。其後，人反寶之，富者至掇數枚，曰：「此祖宗所遺。」俗
尚勇，暇即習走，日可數百裡，不讓奔馬。足皮厚數分，履荊棘如平地。男女椎結，裸
逐無所避。女或結草裙蔽體，遇長老則背身而立，俟過乃行。男子穿耳。女子年十五，
斷脣旁齒以為飾，手足皆刺文，眾社畢賀，費不貲。貧者不任受賀，則不敢刺。四序，
以草青為歲首。土宜五谷，而不善水田。谷種落地，則止殺，謂行好事，助天公，乞飯
食。既收穫，即標竹竿於道，謂之插青，此時逢外人便殺矣。村落相仇，刻期而後戰，
勇者數人前跳，被殺則立散。其勝者，眾賀之，曰：「壯士能殺人也。」其負者，家眾
亦賀之，曰：「壯士不畏死也。次日，即和好如初。地多竹，大至數拱，長十丈，以竹
構屋，覆之以茅，廣且長，聚族而居。無歷日、文字，有大事集眾議之。善用鏢槍，竹
柄鐵鏃，銛甚，試鹿鹿斃，試虎虎亦斃。性既畏海，捕魚則於溪澗。冬月聚眾捕鹿，鏢
發輒中，積如丘山。獨不食雞雉，但取其毛以為飾。中多大溪，流入海，水澹，故其外
名淡水洋。
嘉靖末，倭寇擾閩，大將戚繼光敗之。倭遁居於此，其黨林道乾從之。已，道乾懼
為倭所並，又懼官軍追擊，揚帆直抵浡泥，攘其邊地以居，號道乾港。而雞籠遭倭焚掠，
國遂殘破。初悉居海濱，既遭倭難，稍稍避居山後。忽中國漁舟從魍港飄至，遂往來通
販，以為常。至萬歷末，紅毛番泊舟於此，因事耕鑿，設闤闠，稱台灣焉。
崇禎八年，給事中何楷陳靖海之策，言：「自袁進、李忠、楊祿、楊策、鄭芝龍、
李魁奇、鐘斌、劉香相繼為亂，海上歲無寧息。今欲靖寇氛，非墟其窟不可。其窟維何？
台灣是也。台灣在彭湖島外，距漳、泉止兩日夜程，地廣而腴。初，貧民時至其地，規
魚鹽之利，後見兵威不及，往往聚而為盜。近則紅毛築城其中，與奸民互市，屹然一大
部落。墟之之計，非可干戈從事，必嚴通海之禁，俾紅毛無從謀利，奸民無從得食，出
兵四犯，我師乘其虛而擊之，可大得志。紅毛捨此而去，然後海氛可靖也。」時不能用。
其地，北自雞籠，南至浪嶠，可一千餘里。東自多羅滿，西至王城，可九百余裡。
水道，順風，自雞籠淡水至福州港口。五更可達。自台灣港至彭湖嶼，四更可達。自彭
湖至金門，七更可達。東北至日本，七十更可達。南至呂宋，六十更可達。蓋海道不可
以裡計，舟人分一晝夜為十更，故以更計道裡雲。

In fact this is the only place where Zheng He visited Taiwan was ever mentioned.

Why isn't it mentioned in other related articles?

Ming Shi is written a long time after Zheng's travels. That is why most considered it unreliable. In fact, most Zheng nauticle maps does not show Zheng visiting Taiwan.

As you see mentioned, Taiwan was called 北港 (BeiGang). Because you have to sail north to get to Taiwan. Especially from where Zheng's fleet started their journey. The reason being the black current is very strong, therefore even though you are technically going south, you would still have to sail to the north to counter te current.

That being said, why should Zheng He sailing north at all on his journeys to the "south sea"???

But the story described in Ming Shi is accurate. There are Taiwanese tribes affraid of the water. Pingpu tribes weren't that afraid of water. However, besides Amis, Puyuma, Paiwan, Tao, other tribes lack the vocab for sea farrying.

The northern Taiwan would be under the control of Ketagalan (where the term 雞籠 Kelang came from, a translation of Ketagalan). However it is also occupied by Atayal. Which were extremely land locked tribes.

Generally, the futher south and East you go in Taiwan, the more sea farrying the tribes become. That pretty much fits the models of Taiwanese sailing down to other islands in the south and east. Amis, Tao and other Pingpu tribes such as Agao still sailed between Taiwan and the Phillipines in Qing dynasty.

Taiwanese however, are very found of killing people who lands on their land.

It is the culture of killing other tribes and other unknown people to apease the ancestrial spirit.

Taiwanese's killing of those stranged by ship wrecks became international incident on several occasions.

The killing of Onikawans which gave the Japanese an excuse to invade Taiwan during Qing dynasty, called incident of 牡丹社.

Then some other Taiwanese in Pingdong killed Americans sailors. Which Qing government claimed out of their juristiction. Therefore Americans negociated with the aboriginals directly.

Edited by naruwan, 09 February 2006 - 02:01 AM.

[jiangji]

This is the quote from Ming Shi regarding Taiwan:
In fact this is the only place where Zheng He visited Taiwan was ever mentioned.

Ming Shi is written a long time after Zheng's travels. That is why most considered it unreliable. In fact, most Zheng nauticle maps does not show Zheng visiting Taiwan.

It is hard to believe that Zheng He fleet never reach Taiwan since it is so close to Ming China. Furthermore 1410-1421, Ming navy has more than hunderds of Ocean-going fleet and Zheng He fleet reach as far as Africa. Don't you think it is absurd that Ming never reach or found taiwan ? Also, the private traders or the people live on the sourthern coast should have known of the island. Ming Shi may be written long after the Voyages but it is also the earliest record and most details info on Ming history.

Edited by jiangji, 09 February 2006 - 03:37 AM.

[naruwan]

It is hard to believe that Zheng He fleet never reach Taiwan since it is so close to Ming China. Furthermore 1410-1421, Ming navy has more than hunderds of Ocean-going fleet and Zheng He fleet reach as far as Africa. Don't you think it is absurd that Ming never reach or found taiwan ? Ming Shi may be written long after the Voyages but it is also the earliest record and most details info on Ming history.

Just because his ships sailed far doesn't mean he reached Taiwan. By your logic, isn't it also absurb that his fleet didn't reach Japan?

In fact I have explained many times why the island of Taiwan was largely unknown before the end of Ming dynasty.

It is EXTREMELY difficult sailing to Taiwan. Mainly due to the currents and the fact that Taiwan was not on any sort of trade route. The most probably way of ships from China discovering Taiwan by "random" is that this Chinese ship sailed to Onikawa and got lost in a storm. Ships that arrived in Taiwan were either sunk by the dangerous reefs (which makes Taiwan a dangerous place even well into the Europeans times) or Aboriginals killing any strangers they meet.

If Zheng has in fact reached Taiwan, it should have recorded it in one of these documents:

《前聞記》 by 祝允明, 《西洋朝貢典錄》 by 黃省曾, and 《吳都文粹續集》 by 錢穀. Especially 《西洋朝貢典錄》, since it recorded each time Zheng sailed out to the ocean, and the countries Zheng visited.

So where does any of these mention Zheng reaching 東番 or 北港？

Wait, just in case you are one of those people who tell me to show them proof instead.

一
永樂三年六月
（1405年7月） 永樂五年九月
（1407年10月） 占城（越南歸仁附近）、爪哇、舊港（印尼蘇門答臘島南之三佛齊附近）、阿魯（印尼蘇門答臘島中部Belawan灣附近）、蘇門答剌（印尼蘇門答臘島北部Samalanga附近）、錫蘭（斯里蘭卡Sri Lanka）、古里（Culicut今Calicut印度半島西南）。
二 永樂五年九月
（1407年10月） 永樂七年六月
（1409年7月） 占城、暹邏、爪哇、九洲山（麻六甲Malacca海峽Sembilan群島）、古里、柯枝（印度科欽Cochin）、錫蘭。
三 永樂七年十二月
（1410年1月） 永樂九年六月
（1411年7月 占城、暹邏、爪哇、舊港、五嶼（麻六甲附近之沃特群島）蘇門答剌、錫蘭、柯枝、古里、忽魯謨斯（伊朗鄰近波斯灣之Qeshn島）。
四 永樂十一年十二月
（1413年12月） 永樂十三年七月
（1415年8月） 占城、爪哇、滿剌加（麻六甲）、蘇門答剌、彭亨（馬來半島鄰近新加坡）、南巫里（蘇門答臘亞齊河Banda附近）、渤泥（汶萊Brunei）、錫蘭、溜山（馬爾地夫群島）、柯枝、古里、忽魯謨斯、阿丹（葉門亞丁Yemen Aden）、剌撒（紅海東岸伊薩角）、木骨都束（索馬里亞Somalia首府摩加迪休Mogadishu）、麻林地（Malindi坦尚尼亞 Tanzania之Kilwa Kisiwani附近）、不剌哇（索馬利亞南部Baraawe附近）。
五 永樂十五年元月
（1417年3月） 永樂十七年八月
（1419年8月） 占城、暹邏、爪哇、蘇門答剌、榜葛剌（孟加拉Bengal 印度加爾各答Calcutta附近）、甘巴里（印度半島南端Cape Comorin）、忽魯謨斯、佐法兒（阿曼Oman東岸Zufar附近）阿丹、木骨都束、不剌哇。
六 永樂十九年元月
（1421年2月） 永樂二十年八月
（西元1422年9月） 航程資料不全，大約到達暹邏、蘇門答剌、舊港、榜葛剌等地。
七 宣德六年十二月
（1432年1月） 宣德八年七月
（1433年7月） 占城、靈城（下交趾）、寶童山（柬埔寨Cambodia）、真臘（柬埔寨Cambodia）、爪哇、斯魯馬益（印尼泗水附近）、舊港、滿剌加、蘇門答剌、彭亨；南巫里、翠藍山（馬來半島及印度間的Great Nicobar島）、榜葛剌、錫蘭、溜山、小葛藍、柯枝、古里、忽魯謨斯、佐法兒、阿丹、剌撒、木骨都剌、不剌哇。

Where is the list of Zheng's each voyage. Now, where did it ever mention 東番 or 北港?

Now, if these document never mentioned Zheng reached Taiwan, why should Ming Shi suddenly be more credable?

There is a reason why I am the only out spoken pro-TI person on this board and yet I and still hanging around. I know my Taiwanese history, unlike most "Taiwanese".

一六○三年沈有容出兵台南剿倭寇時，隨軍的陳第就說，台灣非中國 的版圖，因倭寇盤踞以騷擾福建，所以才出兵。同時的陳學伊甚至說 ：「假令不有沈將軍今日之巨功，吾泉人猶未知有所謂東番（按即台 灣）也。」

In 1603, General Shen You-Rong went to Tainan to rid of the pirates. The recorder Chen Di wrote "Taiwan is not a part of China. It is because of the Japanese pirates settling here, forcing us to come here. Recorder Chen Xue-Yi wrote "If not for General Shen You-Rong's successful military action, even a QuanZhou, FuJian person like me, wouldn't know of the existence of DongFan (Eastern Barbarians, referring to Taiwan).

If Zheng reached Taiwan and it was widely known, why then why did a person from Quan Zhou, which was one of the closest points to Taiwan, to say that without the Japanese, they wouldn't even know Taiwan existed?

Sources. Show me the sources.

Edited by naruwan, 09 February 2006 - 03:52 AM.

[jiangji]

Just because his ships sailed far doesn't mean he reached Taiwan. By your logic, isn't it also absurb that his fleet didn't reach Japan?

In fact I have explained many times why the island of Taiwan was largely unknown before the end of Ming dynasty.

Zheng He fleet never reach japan is still acceptable because Zheng He mission is to reestablish trade route in the SEA and I can't see why Zheng He fleet need to sail such a long way to Japan then to SEA since there are many closer ways. Furthermore, Japan is already well-known to Ming China. Japan and Ming China has long establish a relationships since Hong Wu period.

It is EXTREMELY difficult sailing to Taiwan. Mainly due to the currents and the fact that Taiwan was not on any sort of trade route. The most probably way of ships from China discovering Taiwan by "random" is that this Chinese ship sailed to Onikawa and got lost in a storm. Ships that arrived in Taiwan were either sunk by the dangerous reefs (which makes Taiwan a dangerous place even well into the Europeans times) or Aboriginals killing any strangers they meet.

We are not talking about small trade or fishing ships but an ocean-going ships which is more than capable of reaching taiwan. Taiwan is not in the trade route but very close to the sourthern coast of Ming China. Sailing to Japan even a more dfficult task but Yuan navy fleet still manage to solve the problem.

If Zheng has in fact reached Taiwan, it should have recorded it in one of these documents:

It doesn't include in these sources doesn't mean Zheng He never reach Taiwan. By your logic, Zheng He must record every details of all the small islands he reach ? As you said, taiwan is not on the trade route, what make it so special than any island ? To Ming, it is another insignificant island. Also, didn't the confucian official burn many records on Zheng He voyages ?

If Zheng reached Taiwan and it was widely known, why then why did a person from Quan Zhou, which was one of the closest points to Taiwan, to say that without the Japanese, they wouldn't even know Taiwan existed?
Sources. Show me the sources.

I don't have any sources other than Ming Shih. The statement is irrelevant, a person or even an entire villages in sourthern coast doesn't know the existance of the island doesn't mean all the people including the private traders in southern china doesn't know the existence of the islands. Again, what make taiwan so special ? To them , it is another islands.

[naruwan]

Zheng He fleet never reach japan is still acceptable because Zheng He mission is to reestablish trade route in the SEA and I can't see why Zheng He fleet need to sail such a long way to Japan then to SEA since there are many closer ways. Furthermore, Japan is already well-known to Ming China. Japan and Ming China has long establish a relationships since Hong Wu period.

We are not talking about small trade or fishing ships but an ocean-going ships which is more than capable of reaching taiwan. Taiwan is not in the trade route but very close to the sourthern coast of Ming China. Sailing to Japan even a more dfficult task but Yuan navy fleet still manage to solve the problem.

good point, so that's your proof that Zheng He reached Taiwan? That it is very close to South East China? By the way, What if I tell you there is no evidence that Zheng He ever reached Luzon island of the Philipines? Surprised? Go ahead and find that Zheng has reached Luzon, I think that would make you more famous than proving Zheng He has reached Taiwan.

Isn't Luzon even more likely for Zheng to reach since it's in his very same direction of travel? Yet, Zheng He has never reahed it.

Like I said many times, Zeng He is NOT an explorer. Sorry to dissapoint you. He simple followed the known trade routes around south east Asia and Indian ocean to show off Ming China to those countries. Since Taiwan and the Luzon Philippines are not on the trade route, he would not have just "ran in to it".

And I know you want to prove me wrong, but please remain rational. Sailing to Japan is a MUCH EASIER thing to do than sailing to Taiwan. Especially when you sail from Corea. Which was EXACTLY what the Yuan army did.

It doesn't include in these sources doesn't mean Zheng He never reach Taiwan. By your logic, Zheng He must record every details of all the small islands he reach ? As you said, taiwan is not on the trade route, what make it so special than any island ? To Ming, it is another insignificant island. Also, didn't the confucian official burn many records on Zheng He voyages ?

Same as above, unless you are telling me Luzon is also a "very small island".

I don't have any sources other than Ming Shih. The statement is irrelevant, a person or even an entire villages in sourthern coast doesn't know the existance of the island doesn't mean all the people including the private traders in southern china doesn't know the existence of the islands. Again, what make taiwan so special ? To them , it is another islands.

Ok, fine. Calling Quan Zhou a "village", fine. Quan Zou was the port of choice prior to Qing dynasty, but sure, you want to call it a "small village". I see your point.

Edited by naruwan, 09 February 2006 - 06:37 PM.

[naruwan]

By the way, I'll add what I think of Ming's record referring to Taiwan.

雞籠山在彭湖嶼東北，故名北港，又名東番，去泉州甚邇。地多深山大澤，聚落星
散。無君長，有十五社，社多者千人，少或五六百人。無徭賦，以子女多者為雄，聽其
號令。雖居海中，酷畏海，不善操舟，老死不與領國往來。

Very general information. Probably all from late Ming when the existance of Taiwan have been made well known by the Japaese and Chinese pirate and the Dutch.

Taiwanese in the south are great at sailing the ocean. But of course, here it refers making contact with Ming China. And Taiwanese only sail to the south and east due to the seasonal currents.

永樂時，鄭和遍歷東西洋，靡不獻琛恐後，獨東番遠避不至。和惡之，家貽一銅鈴，
俾掛諸項，蓋擬之狗國也。其後，人反寶之，富者至掇數枚，曰：「此祖宗所遺。」俗
尚勇，暇即習走，日可數百裡，不讓奔馬。足皮厚數分，履荊棘如平地。男女椎結，裸
逐無所避。女或結草裙蔽體，遇長老則背身而立，俟過乃行。男子穿耳。女子年十五，
斷脣旁齒以為飾，手足皆刺文，眾社畢賀，費不貲。貧者不任受賀，則不敢刺。四序，
以草青為歲首。土宜五谷，而不善水田。谷種落地，則止殺，謂行好事，助天公，乞飯
食。既收穫，即標竹竿於道，謂之插青，此時逢外人便殺矣。村落相仇，刻期而後戰，
勇者數人前跳，被殺則立散。其勝者，眾賀之，曰：「壯士能殺人也。」其負者，家眾
亦賀之，曰：「壯士不畏死也。次日，即和好如初。地多竹，大至數拱，長十丈，以竹
構屋，覆之以茅，廣且長，聚族而居。無歷日、文字，有大事集眾議之。善用鏢槍，竹
柄鐵鏃，銛甚，試鹿鹿斃，試虎虎亦斃。性既畏海，捕魚則於溪澗。冬月聚眾捕鹿，鏢
發輒中，積如丘山。獨不食雞雉，但取其毛以為飾。中多大溪，流入海，水澹，故其外
名淡水洋。

Besides the first line that refers to Zheng He, I believe the following sentences has nothing to do with Zheng He. Since there thing would require getting to know the locals and observe for a while. The rest of the sentences are probably from information that is made well known in late Ming.

嘉靖末，倭寇擾閩，大將戚繼光敗之。倭遁居於此，其黨林道乾從之。已，道乾懼
為倭所並，又懼官軍追擊，揚帆直抵浡泥，攘其邊地以居，號道乾港。而雞籠遭倭焚掠，
國遂殘破。初悉居海濱，既遭倭難，稍稍避居山後。忽中國漁舟從魍港飄至，遂往來通
販，以為常。至萬歷末，紅毛番泊舟於此，因事耕鑿，設闤闠，稱台灣焉。
崇禎八年，給事中何楷陳靖海之策，言：「自袁進、李忠、楊祿、楊策、鄭芝龍、
李魁奇、鐘斌、劉香相繼為亂，海上歲無寧息。今欲靖寇氛，非墟其窟不可。其窟維何？
台灣是也。台灣在彭湖島外，距漳、泉止兩日夜程，地廣而腴。初，貧民時至其地，規
魚鹽之利，後見兵威不及，往往聚而為盜。近則紅毛築城其中，與奸民互市，屹然一大
部落。墟之之計，非可干戈從事，必嚴通海之禁，俾紅毛無從謀利，奸民無從得食，出
兵四犯，我師乘其虛而擊之，可大得志。紅毛捨此而去，然後海氛可靖也。」時不能用。
其地，北自雞籠，南至浪嶠，可一千餘里。東自多羅滿，西至王城，可九百余裡。
水道，順風，自雞籠淡水至福州港口。五更可達。自台灣港至彭湖嶼，四更可達。自彭
湖至金門，七更可達。東北至日本，七十更可達。南至呂宋，六十更可達。蓋海道不可
以裡計，舟人分一晝夜為十更，故以更計道裡雲。

Here talks about the known history in mid to late Ming.

In fact, the Japanese wanted to invade Taiwan when during their invasion of Corea and Ming. That plan was disturbed while the Japanese navy were crushed by the Corean navy.

[jiangji]

good point, so that's your proof that Zheng He reached Taiwan? That it is very close to South East China? By the way, What if I tell you there is no evidence that Zheng He ever reached Luzon island of the Philipines? Surprised? Go ahead and find that Zheng has reached Luzon, I think that would make you more famous than proving Zheng He has reached Taiwan. Isn't Luzon even more likely for Zheng to reach since it's in his very same direction of travel? Yet, Zheng He has never reahed it.

No, I don't seem surpises because it is so far away from Zheng He main route.

If you refer to the map herehttp://www.time.com/...ey2001/map.html, taiwan is far more closer to the Zheng He trade route than Luzon. I don't know why you want to use this weak argument to argue that Ming never found taiwan.

Like I said many times, Zeng He is NOT an explorer. Sorry to dissapoint you. He simple followed the known trade routes around south east Asia and Indian ocean to show off Ming China to those countries. Since Taiwan and the Luzon Philippines are not on the trade route, he would not have just "ran in to it".

I never argue that Zheng He is a explorer in my previous messanges. I said, taiwan is so much closer to Zheng He trade route if you refer the map above. They could have make a stop at the island.

And I know you want to prove me wrong, but please remain rational. Sailing to Japan is a MUCH EASIER thing to do than sailing to Taiwan. Especially when you sail from Corea. Which was EXACTLY what the Yuan army did.

Again, the Ming navy fleet had to sail all the ways to korea from the south and then to Japan. The Ming navy fleet is not located or builded in Korea. While for taiwan, the island is only 95 miles off mainland of china.

Same as above, unless you are telling me Luzon is also a "very small island".
Ok, fine. Calling Quan Zhou a "village", fine. Quan Zou was the port of choice prior to Qing dynasty, but sure, you want to call it a "small village". I see your point.

Again, look at the map above. Luzon is so far away from Zheng He trade route compare to taiwan. I never call Quan ZHou a village. What I mean was that people in one of the village in Quan Zhou doesn't know the existence of island doesn't mean all the people living in that area don't know about the island. By your logic, the existence of islands can only be proved if all the people living in southern coast or even in Quan Zhou must known of the existence of the islands ?

Edited by jiangji, 10 February 2006 - 03:11 AM.

[naruwan]

Zheng He "could have this" Zeng He "could have that" Where's your evidence???

Zheng He could have reached the Americas by other peoples' logic.

Why is Luzon far from Zheng He's travels? Zheng He was around Indonesia and Malaysia. Coming up along the Phillipines is easier than sailing eastward into the unknown to find Taiwan.

If Luzon is not on the trade route in your mind, then Taiwan definately was not on ANY KIND of trade route.

Heck, Luzon has sent envoys to Tang dynasty.

Your only proof right now is that Taiwan is "close" to China on a map, which is made clear for you using a map without any blanks thanks to the space age.

Zheng on the other hand did not have such technology. The sailing maps (過洋牽星圖) he used is just like this one:



Which shows the geographycal features of a shoreline, and the stars to navigate with during the night.

For Zheng, he had to sail along the shores to make sure he is not deviated from his route.

Zheng does not sail in to the open ocean.

Even during the time he is sailing to and from Africa, he sailed along the coast, instead of crossing the Indian ocean to save time.

This is the same way Han sailers made their journeys for thousands of years, just as recorded by Buddhist monk FaXian's journey back to Jin dynasty from India.

This is why Zheng is not an explorer. And also the reason why Zheng did not reach Taiwan.

Finally, that map in "TIMEasia" only showed one of the journeys. Looks like voyage number 7 to me. There are other maps that shows route of each voayage.

Zheng recorded that he has reached 蘇祿, which is known as Sulu Archipelago today and is in the southwest corner of the Philippines.

Yet he did not reach Luzon.

Being on the trade routes is what Zheng is all about. Taiwan was not on the trade route. Zheng He didn't go there. Unless you have evidence to prove otherwise.

Edited by naruwan, 10 February 2006 - 08:41 AM.

[jiangji]

Zheng He "could have this" Zeng He "could have that" Where's your evidence???

Zheng He could have reached the Americas by other peoples' logic.

Ming Shih already record that Zheng He has reach Taiwan but you said it is "unreliable" and there was no mention of it in other record. Ming Shih may be bias but it is still the most reliable sources on Ming history. Since you are denying this reliable sources of evidence, I had to use logic for arguement. Unlike America, taiwan is 95 miles from mainland and close to ZHeng He main route.

Why is Luzon far from Zheng He's travels? Zheng He was around Indonesia and Malaysia. Coming up along the Phillipines is easier than sailing eastward into the unknown to find Taiwan.

Refer to the map I provided to you, Luzon is so far away from the main route. As I said, Zheng He voyages was restablish trade route and this make malacca and Indonesia important place and why did he has to change route to go to Luzon first and from there sail to Malacca wasting a lot of time. They can sail directly to vietnam, thailand and from there sail to malacca, don't you think it is a more logical step to do ? Unlike Luzon, taiwan is so close to the main route if you refer to the map above.

If Luzon is not on the trade route in your mind, then Taiwan definately was not on ANY KIND of trade route.

Did you refer to the map ? LuZon is so far away from the main route while taiwan is just nearby.

Your only proof right now is that Taiwan is "close" to China on a map, which is made clear for you using a map without any blanks thanks to the space age.

Zheng on the other hand did not have such technology.

Even during the time he is sailing to and from Africa, he sailed along the coast, instead of crossing the Indian ocean to save time.

This is the same way Han sailers made their journeys for thousands of years, just as recorded by Buddhist monk FaXian's journey back to Jin dynasty from India.

This is why Zheng is not an explorer. And also the reason why Zheng did not reach Taiwan.

Finally, that map in "TIMEasia" only showed one of the journeys. Looks like voyage number 7 to me. There are other maps that shows route of each voayage.

Zheng recorded that he has reached 蘇祿, which is known as Sulu Archipelago today and is in the southwest corner of the Philippines.

Yet he did not reach Luzon.

Being on the trade routes is what Zheng is all about. Taiwan was not on the trade route. Zheng He didn't go there. Unless you have evidence to prove otherwise.

As I said, there are proof already but you deny it. So, I had to use logic to justify my arguement. What do you mean he doesn't had such technology ? This is not about sailing but it is just nearby and only 95 miles from mainland. Stopping there would not waste a lot of time for Zheng He. Even the early arab explorer can reach as far as Africa with much smaller ships, why the Ming with such advanced technology and Ocean- going ship cannot reach taiwan especially when it just nearby.

Edited by jiangji, 10 February 2006 - 03:16 PM.

[naruwan]

Ming Shih already record that Zheng He has reach Taiwan but you said it is "unreliable" and there was no mention of it in other record. Ming Shih may be bias but it is still the most reliable sources on Ming history. Since you are denying this reliable sources of evidence, I had to use logic for arguement. Unlike America, taiwan is 95 miles from mainland and close to ZHeng He main route.

It is the most reliable source on Ming history, but NOT on Zheng's voyages. Same as Tang Shi is not the most relable source to Xuan Zang's journey.

When all the documentations that is directly related to Zheng He Voyages mentioned nothing about Taiwan, I don't see how Ming Shi, written hundreds years later would be more credible.

So, what's your reason for Ming Shi to be more accurate than the 3 prime documents that recorded EVERY one of Zheng's journey?

Refer to the map I provided to you, Luzon is so far away from the main route. As I said, Zheng He voyages was restablish trade route and this make malacca and Indonesia important place and why did he has to change route to go to Luzon first and from there sail to Malacca wasting a lot of time. They can sail directly to vietnam, thailand and from there sail to malacca, don't you think it is a more logical step to do ? Unlike Luzon, taiwan is so close to the main route if you refer to the map above.
Did you refer to the map ? LuZon is so far away from the main route while taiwan is just nearby.
As I said, there are proof already but you deny it. So, I had to use logic to justify my arguement. What do you mean he doesn't had such technology ? This is not about sailing but it is just nearby and only 95 miles from mainland. Stopping there would not waste a lot of time for Zheng He. Even the early arab explorer can reach as far as Africa with much smaller ships, why the Ming with such advanced technology and Ocean- going ship cannot reach taiwan especially when it just nearby.

That map is an IMCOMPLETE map of Zheng voyage. TIME magazine is NOT the academic source for Zheng voyages. You take ONE of Zheng voyage which he by passed the ENTIRE south east asian and pretending that it is the ONLY journey Zheng has taken.

There are other maps that demonstrated Zheng's journey much better. At least one that shows all 7 journeys instead of just 1.

Again, you have no proof. You only have an "ARGUEMENT". That argument being Taiwan is close, so Zheng must have been there.

The same arguement would be Columbus must have reach the Florida in his 4 journeys, since Cuba was only 100 miles away from Florida.

Yet Columbus never been to Florida.

[jiangji]

When all the documentations that is directly related to Zheng He Voyages mentioned nothing about Taiwan, I don't see how Ming Shi, written hundreds years later would be more credible.

So, what's your reason for Ming Shi to be more accurate than the 3 prime documents that recorded EVERY one of Zheng's journey?

Again, you have no proof. You only have an "ARGUEMENT". That argument being Taiwan is close, so Zheng must have been there.

You deny the Ming Shih source and only accept the 3 prime documents. The 3 prime document does not record "EVERY" Zheng He voyages , the confucian official burn many of Zheng He records on the voyages.

My argument is based on logic since you are denying the sources. By 1375, the Ming already arrived in Ryukyu Islands which located even farther away from mainland compare to taiwan. If Ming can reach Ryuku island, why not taiwan? It doesn't make any sense at all if the Ming has no knowldege of taiwan. I arguing for logic and thing that make sense.

That map is an IMCOMPLETE map of Zheng voyage. TIME magazine is NOT the academic source for Zheng voyages. You take ONE of Zheng voyage which he by passed the ENTIRE south east asian and pretending that it is the ONLY journey Zheng has taken.

TIME is not a complete source but I am trying to show you that how close taiwan is near Zheng He main route compare to Luzon. I still don't know why Luzon is relevant in this discussion since it located so far away from the mainland. I keep saying taiwan is located 95 miles from the mainland of china.

If Zheng He fleet did reach Sulu which is located so far away and isolated area, this will further support my argument. If they manage to reach that far and isolated island, why can't they reach taiwan which just located nearby ? Can you explain it ? Don't tell me that taiwan is hard to reach because lack of technology? Look at the western explorer ships which appear 100 years after Zheng He voyages.

Edited by jiangji, 10 February 2006 - 10:08 PM.

[naruwan]

You deny the Ming Shih source and only accept the 3 prime documents. The 3 prime document does not record "EVERY" Zheng He voyages , the confucian official burn many of Zheng He records on the voyages.

My argument is based on logic since you are denying the sources. By 1375, the Ming already arrived in Ryukyu Islands which located even farther away from mainland compare to taiwan. If Ming can reach Ryuku island, why not taiwan? It doesn't make any sense at all if the Ming has no knowldege of taiwan. I arguing for logic and thing that make sense.


TIME is not a complete source but I am trying to show you that how close taiwan is near Zheng He main route compare to Luzon. I still don't know why Luzon is relevant in this discussion since it located so far away from the mainland. I keep saying taiwan is located 95 miles from the mainland of china.

If Zheng He fleet did reach Sulu which is located so far away and isolated area, this will further support my argument. If they manage to reach that far and isolated island, why can't they reach taiwan which just located nearby ? Can you explain it ? Don't tell me that taiwan is hard to reach because lack of technology? Look at the western explorer ships which appear 100 years after Zheng He voyages.

What made you say Sulu is a "isolated area"???? Maybe it is by today's world situation, but in Ming dynasty, Sulu was one of the Muslim led South East Asian nation who are great at sailing and trading with the Han and the Arabians.

Yes, everyone knows how close Taiwan is to China. So explan why China knew of Japan first and not Taiwan?

Just because it's close on a map, which you have thanks to European Explorers and modern space age photography, doesn't mean Zheng He just magically knew where it was.

[jiangji]

What made you say Sulu is a "isolated area"???? Maybe it is by today's world situation, but in Ming dynasty, Sulu was one of the Muslim led South East Asian nation who are great at sailing and trading with the Han and the Arabians.

Geographically, Sulu is an isolated island whether they had large trading or not. Your argument is very weak as you argue that Sulu island which located so far away is more easily reachable than taiwan which just 95 miles from mainland. Don't you think it is absurd that Ming dynasty does not discover taiwan which is one of the nearest island to China ? They know of the existence much smaller islands Ryuku islands which located so far away but doesn't know there is a much bigger island which is much closer to them.

Yes, everyone knows how close Taiwan is to China. So explan why China knew of Japan first and not Taiwan?

How does this is relevant to our discussion? I am not surprise at all because Japan and taiwan are totally different situation. As far as I can know, it was japan that found china first.

Just because it's close on a map, which you have thanks to European Explorers and modern space age photography, doesn't mean Zheng He just magically knew where it was.

Zheng He doesn't need magic or superior mind to locate the island. As I already said many times, it is 95 miles from mainland. It doesn't make any sense when Ming had huge knowledege of its surrounding area even small island like Ryuku but doesn't know the existence of Big island taiwan just located nearby(below Ryuku island).

Edited by jiangji, 11 February 2006 - 03:44 AM.

[naruwan]

Geographically, Sulu is an isolated island whether they had large trading or not. Your argument is very weak as you argue that Sulu island which located so far away is more easily reachable than taiwan which just 95 miles from mainland.

Sorry, But I am going to be blunt. I know you want to win this argument. But you should AT LEAST do some research. I am taking your deliberate ignorance as an form of insult, because I am seriously trying to find as many sources for you as possible.

It's one thing to insist Taiwan is CLOSE to China, therefore Zheng must have reached Taiwan. Quite another to say "Sulu is an isolated place" and insist upon it. I have pointed out it was a Islam state, which means the Arabians reached there through marine time trading.

I am not ARGUEING that Sulu is easier to reach. I am TELLING you it is easier to reach. As documents had shown Chinese traders visiting for hundreds of years before Zheng ever arrived at Sulu.

Below is a passage describing Sulu:

而蘇祿因其地理位置的優勢也成為東南亞著名的國際自由港，中國和蘇祿之間的民間海上貿易往來已經十分頻繁，因此在蘇祿發現明代文物並不稀奇，不一定是鄭和船隊帶去的。

Sulu became a famous Souteast Asian international port due to its excellent location. The commercial trading between the people of China and Sulu were very frequent, therefore it is not suprising to discover Ming artifacts in Sulu, those might not be artifact brought by Zheng He's fleet.

In fact, the second Sutan of Sulu visited Ming court and died in China. His children that accompanied him to China stayed and still live in Shandong province till today.

Sulug is a Austronesian word meaning waves. It is a chain of 400 islands. It hold important position between China, Arabia, Mindanaoan, Visayas and Borneo. In perfect location to be a hub of commerce.

The earliest occurance of Sulu in Chinese record is 大得南海標誌 written in 1304. Zheng's first voyage was 1405, which means the Chinese known on Sulu for at least 100 years. The book 島夷標誌略 written in 1349 described details of Sulu way of making salt, wine, cloth, collection of pearls and trading.

There are talks of Sulu and Chinese commerce started in the 7th century. But I can not identify the first hand sources.

So, tell me again, WHAT MADE YOU INSIST SULU IS AN ISOLATED PLACE?

Don't you think it is absurd that Ming dynasty does not discover taiwan which is one of the nearest island to China ? They know of the existence much smaller islands Ryuku islands which located so far away but doesn't know there is a much bigger island which is much closer to them.

what is absurb is you not bothering to look up sources even once.

How does this is relevant to our discussion? I am not surprise at all because Japan and taiwan are totally different situation. As far as I can know, it was japan that found china first.
Zheng He doesn't need magic or superior mind to locate the island. As I already said many times, it is 95 miles from mainland. It doesn't make any sense when Ming had huge knowledege of its surrounding area even small island like Ryuku but doesn't know the existence of Big island taiwan just located nearby(below Ryuku island).

It is hard to sail to Taiwan due to the two opposite currents. It's that simple. There is a reason why Chinese couldn't identify the island for so long. If the Chinese had came from the south or the norht, it would have been much easier to locate Taiwan.

Edited by naruwan, 11 February 2006 - 05:59 AM.