[rockets_fan]

Did he really give out a thunderous roar and scared the c**p out of the Wei's army? If it's true, than I question the training of the Wei army.

[Ma Su]

Zhang Fei destroyed the bridge and issed a challenge to the Wei horsemen with his twenty horsemen behind him. I imagine nobody wanted to try and cross the river and face 21 men. Might not have been brave but I don't belive it was lack of training that meant Zhang Fei was able to stall them.

This post has been edited by Ma Su: 29 March 2006 - 06:21 AM

[Yun]

I wonder why the Cao army (it wasn't Wei until 220) didn't just mow Zhang Fei and his 20 cavalry down with crossbows. Was the river too wide (not likely), or was the idea of honour at work (since Zhang had issued a challenge to personal combat)?

The part about one Cao general's gall bladder rupturing from fear at Zhang Fei's voice is purely fictional, from the novel.

[Ma Su]

Can you shoot crossbows while on a horse? Perhaps they simply didn't think of shooting Zhang Fei in the heat of the moment.

[Wujiang]

Way I see it, the very idea that there is a river there and knowing that the enemy is just on the other side is enough to deter anyone from crossing. Countless battles have been lost because big armies try to cross the river and gets slaughtered by archers by a much smaller army

Cao's army would either have rushed the bridge and forced them into a bottleneck in which nullifies their numbers which also risked breaking the bridge under so much weight. or they could have tried to cross the river enmass which risk archers and crossbowmen appearing out of nowhere and wipe them out.

If Cao's army didn't know the enemy was near by, crossing was a risk worth taking, Zhang Fei's pressence meant that they were.

Obviously Zhang Fei appeared there on purpose because Liu Bei's army even with such an advantage of the river would have been no match for Cao Cao's men. Zhang Fei was not there to "scare off" the enemy. But to tell them that if Cao Cao are going to fight this one, he would be seriously hurt. He needs to make sure Cao Cao doesn't even try. Cao Cao must also have taken into consideration that even if he was going to win this battle, the losses he must suffer was huge because of the river. This simply wasn't a strategically sound battle to fight. Lets not forget that while Cao Cao was really strong at the time, there are still others around to capitalize should he be weakened.

[Zhou Yu]

there were ONLY 21 men (including Fei) on the other side of the river correct?

[Wujiang]

Most of the river slaughters happened because of ambush. And ambush by definition meant the enemy doesn't know how much men there really are.

[Zhou Yu]

true... well im out of that part of the debate for now...

about the whole Fei screaming and scaring everyone... i dont really know... i mean i would not be so scared that i wet myself or anything but i wouldnt be to confident when it comes to going agaisnt someone like him...

[MC420]

Wujiang, on Mar 29 2006, 10:36 AM, said:

Most of the river slaughters happened because of ambush. And ambush by definition meant the enemy doesn't know how much men there really are.

Just for the sake of discussing details from the novel (who could record real historical fact at the Chang Ban bridge)!

First of all, Cao's and his calvalry troops would likely to reach there first before his main force arrived. Secondly, scout commander wouldn't dare to cross the bridge without Cao's approval. Thirdly, Cao's own suspicious nature and battle experiences would also delay his decision from crossing the river and fall into a deadly ambush (while seeing dust coming up from those 20 hosemen of Zhang Fei stirred up from afar back); Last but not least, Cao's own recollection of who & who among Liu Bei's generals was also distorted his decision as he could recall what Quan Yu told him about Zhang Fei after he displayed his martial art skill of decapitating opposing general as easy as picking something out of his own pocket!

Summary: Cao's decision of not crossing decision was a correct one for the moment; Such hesitation of crossing river to attack opponent had also repeat by another Syrian's general at Bnot Yaakov Bridge during the Yom Kippur's war against Israel. An yong Israel tank commander named Zvi Gringold, singlehandedly held off an attack of over 100 tanks (some sources indicated he killed over 50 tanks by himself). Even though Syrian's T62 tanks had night vision goggles but their general failed to seize their opportunity to cross the bridge at night was considered to be one of the turning points during the Yom Kippur war in 1973!

[Jackathyn]

I doubt it. It's too romantic/dramatic an image to be true, I think.
Besides, if all Zhang Fei had to do was yell at his enemies to scare them off... Well, I'd wager that Shu-Han would have won more battles than they did, and with a lot fewer casualties.

[Yun]

Even Guan Yu was deterred from crossing a river with 5,000 elite troops to attack Lu Su at Yiyang, after Gan Ning stationed himself there with 1,300 men. As a result, Guan Yu had to hold peace talks with Lu Su at Yiyang (the famous 'one-sword conference' in which every general present - not just Guan Yu - was only allowed to carry one sword), and the outcome of the talks was that Liu Bei had to recognize Lu Meng's capture of Changsha and Guiyang and adopt the Xiang River as the new border with Sun Quan.

This was actually Lu Meng's first success against Guan Yu, and it owed much to Gan Ning's daring in holding that river. Gan Ning even boasted before that, that with 800 troops he could simply spit in Guan Yu's direction across the river and Guan would have no choice but to retreat.

[Yun]

Quote

Cao's army would either have rushed the bridge and forced them into a bottleneck in which nullifies their numbers which also risked breaking the bridge under so much weight.

Remember that Zhang Fei had already wrecked the bridge to make it necessary for Cao's army to cross by wading or riding across (if it was shallow) or by boat.

Quote

Last but not least, Cao's own recollection of who & who among Liu Bei's generals was also distorted his decision as he could recall what Quan Yu told him about Zhang Fei after he displayed his martial art skill of decapitating opposing general as easy as picking something out of his own pocket!

Guan Yu's line about Zhang Fei's martial prowess is only from the novel.

For a textbook example of a brilliant river crossing done by feint, see this post: http://www.chinahist...dpost&p=4781931

[MC420]

Yun, on Mar 30 2006, 08:50 PM, said:

Remember that Zhang Fei had already wrecked the bridge to make it necessary for Cao's army to cross by wading or riding across (if it was shallow) or by boat.
Guan Yu's line about Zhang Fei's martial prowess is only from the novel.

Yun:

Regarding the real scenario of Changban bridge, where would you locate better factual records beyond the records of sanquozhi?

Quote

When Liu Biao passed away, Cao Cao entered Jingzhou and Liu Bei had to flee to Jiangnan. Cao Cao pursued and within one day and night his army reached Changban of Dangyang. Upon hearing the arrival of Cao Cao’s troops, Liu Bei abandoned his wife and child and commanded Zhang Fei to lead 20 horsemen to guard the rear. Zhang Fei destroyed a bridge and guarding at the waters, he glared and pointed his spear saying, “I am Zhang Fei, and anyone can come and challenge me to fight to the death!” None of the enemies dared to venture near, hence a clashing of the armies was avoided.

After that, Liu Bei was able to secure Jiangnan and he appointed Zhang Fei as the governor of Yidu, Zhenglu Jiangjun (General Who Subdues the Caitiffs) and also the title of Marquis of Xinting, and subsequently he was transferred to Nanjun.

This post has been edited by MC420: 30 March 2006 - 11:14 PM

[Yun]

MC420,

We have no other historical record of the event other than the Sanguo Zhi. The fact that it is so briefly narrated there makes it such that we will never know the full story.

[Black Dynasty]

that may be true but the way I see it they must have a couple of archers with them.

If i was an archer i would asked Cao if it was ok to start shooting