[lifezard]

Hi,

Everyone knows that in Taiwan the aboringes are divided to different 'zu's , eg. the Ami, Paiwan, Penan etc..

However, mainland China is still lumping them into 'Gaoshan zu' which is plain poltitical insensitivity in my view. If the PRC wants reunification probably they should do something to woo the aborigine minority shouldn't they?

What do you guys think of that?

[qrasy]

What I know is that in Taiwan 12 tribes are recognized. So in my opinion the identities should become 12 official nationalities rather than one single Gaoshan-zu.

This post has been edited by qrasy: 09 April 2006 - 05:17 AM

[naruwan]

lifezard, on Apr 9 2006, 12:23 AM, said:

Hi,

Everyone knows that in Taiwan the aboringes are divided to different 'zu's , eg. the Ami, Paiwan, Penan etc..

However, mainland China is still lumping them into 'Gaoshan zu' which is plain poltitical insensitivity in my view. If the PRC wants reunification probably they should do something to woo the aborigine minority shouldn't they?

What do you guys think of that?

exactly. remember, before Lee Deng Hui started the reform, there were only 9 Aboriginal tribes recongized by the Taiwanese government.

This division is the based on the Japanese study which divided the Taiwanese aboriginals into two groups. 平埔 The PingPu, or tribes of the flat land, and 9 高山 GaoShan tribes, tribes of the Highland.

The KMT government doesn't bother to study the aboriginals once they get there, they denied the Pingpu aboriginals of their identity to politically force them into abandoning their cultural identity, and isolated the 9 tribes into cultural corner.

Today, things are changing. Although I am afraid it is still too late.

So PRC's grouping of the 9 tribes into one is basically just like the KMT, is based on their lack of understanding, and their lack of desire to understand.

[lifezard]

naruwan, on Apr 9 2006, 11:32 PM, said:

exactly. remember, before Lee Deng Hui started the reform, there were only 9 Aboriginal tribes recongized by the Taiwanese government.

This division is the based on the Japanese study which divided the Taiwanese aboriginals into two groups. 平埔 The PingPu, or tribes of the flat land, and 9 高山 GaoShan tribes, tribes of the Highland.

The KMT government doesn't bother to study the aboriginals once they get there, they denied the Pingpu aboriginals of their identity to politically force them into abandoning their cultural identity, and isolated the 9 tribes into cultural corner.

Today, things are changing. Although I am afraid it is still too late.

So PRC's grouping of the 9 tribes into one is basically just like the KMT, is based on their lack of understanding, and their lack of desire to understand.

hi,

do you think you can share with us the exact names of the various tribes and the similarities and differences between each of them?

interestingly, my japanese friends like to claim okinawa(or ryukyu) people look similar to them.. any truth?

[naruwan]

lifezard, on Feb 26 2007, 06:26 AM, said:

hi,

do you think you can share with us the exact names of the various tribes and the similarities and differences between each of them?

interestingly, my japanese friends like to claim okinawa(or ryukyu) people look similar to them.. any truth?

Well, Ryukyuans are very different from each other.

For example, Yonaguni Island which is only 70km off of Taiwan is also considered Ryukyu (Okinawa) while original languages between Okinawan and Yonagunian are not mutually Intelligible. The closest Ryukyu island to Yonaguni is Iriomote (西表島) of the Yaeyama Islands (八重山群島) which is 65km off Yonaguni has their own language.

I do not know whether these languages are "Austronesians". If they are it would make them share similarities with Taiwanese Aboriginals. However, from what little I've seen in Yonaguni and other Okinawans, they are not very familiar to me.

For example, almost all Austronesian shares the word "lima" for 5 and/or hand. But I don't think that is part of Okinawan languages.

As for the tribes:

The 13 tribes consist of 10 "Highland" tribes :

Altayal

Bunun

Amis

Tsou

Puyuma

Paiwan

Tao (aka Yami)

Saisiyat

Rukai

Thao

And one "Flatland" tribe:

Kavalan

2 new tribe has recently been recognized (one in 2004 and one in 2006):

Truku (Taroko) : Originally grouped into Altayal by the Japanese. Although linguistically and culturally distinct, therefore they were granted to be their own tribe.

Sakizaya (撒奇萊雅) : Originally grouped into Amis. However records of Sakizaya can be seen as early as 1636 on Spanish documents. During the Qing Occupation, Qing invaded their traditional territory over resources (namely, gold) which caused many serious conflicts, including the famous Galiwan incident in 1878, whcih the Qing then tried to commit genocide of the Sakizaya tribe. Most of the tribesmen hid within the Amis tribes for safety. And the hiding went on until now. Since the Sakizayan language is more than 60% different from the Amis language, they were granted tribehood just last year.

Many Aboriginals that has Hanized are now searching their roots and wishes to be recognized as a tribe again. I wish that will happen some day.

The Aboriginal groups recorded by Japanese antropoligist:

Flatland tribes (North to South):

ketagalan: This group's name is the origin of the name of the Port City:JiLung, In Holo it is pronounced as KeLang. Lives from JiLung to Taibei.

luilang: Lives from Taibei to TaoYuan.

Taokas: Lives in TaoYuan (this name of the group again the is origin of the name of the place) HsinChu, to MiaoLi.

Pazeh: Lives around Taichung.

Papora: Lives in Taichung, ChingShui.

Babuza: South of River DaDu, north of the River ZhuoSui, one of the stronger tribes during Qing rule.

Hoanya: Lives from YuanLin to JiaYi.

Siraya: Lives from Tainan to Pingdong. This tribe had writting created for them by the Dutch. They continued to use this writting for contracts until the end of Qing rule.

There are many documents from the Dutch, Spanish to Qing and Japanese recording many more tribes. Most of which are now completely absorbed into Han society because the oppression they've faced otherwise. Some sources includes 乾隆台灣輿圖 Qian Long Taiwan Map, which shows the locations of many tribes graphically.

A publication by the National Palace Museum called 黎民之初：院藏臺灣原住民圖檔文獻展 Illustrated Historical Documents in the Collections of the National Palace Museum has pretty good information.

See the English NPM site (which also has Chinese and Japanese versions):

http://www.npm.gov.t...s/intro_en.html

[lifezard]

naruwan, on Feb 26 2007, 10:59 PM, said:

Well, Ryukyuans are very different from each other.

For example, Yonaguni Island which is only 70km off of Taiwan is also considered Ryukyu (Okinawa) while original languages between Okinawan and Yonagunian are not mutually Intelligible. The closest Ryukyu island to Yonaguni is Iriomote (西表島) of the Yaeyama Islands (八重山群島) which is 65km off Yonaguni has their own language.

I do not know whether these languages are "Austronesians". If they are it would make them share similarities with Taiwanese Aboriginals. However, from what little I've seen in Yonaguni and other Okinawans, they are not very familiar to me.

For example, almost all Austronesian shares the word "lima" for 5 and/or hand. But I don't think that is part of Okinawan languages.

i think officially yonaguni is japonic.. but it is definitely very differnt from japanese

for example:

head : ishigakijima = (shiburi), yonaguni = (minburu)

sea : ishigakijima = (tumori) , yonaguni = (unnaga)

cloud: ishigakijima= (hum) , yonaguni= (nmu)

(compare them to standard japanese)

i have attached the following s regarding yonaguni and neighboruing dialects, perhaps you can find some autronesian links to them?

http://wikitravel.or...guni_phrasebook



, i m just wondering from physical appearance , do they look similar?

naruwan, on Feb 26 2007, 10:59 PM, said:

As for the tribes:

The 13 tribes consist of 10 "Highland" tribes :

Altayal

Bunun

Amis

Tsou

Puyuma

Paiwan

Tao (aka Yami)

Saisiyat

Rukai

Thao

And one "Flatland" tribe:

Kavalan

2 new tribe has recently been recognized (one in 2004 and one in 2006):

Truku (Taroko) : Originally grouped into Altayal by the Japanese. Although linguistically and culturally distinct, therefore they were granted to be their own tribe.

Sakizaya (撒奇萊雅) : Originally grouped into Amis. However records of Sakizaya can be seen as early as 1636 on Spanish documents. During the Qing Occupation, Qing invaded their traditional territory over resources (namely, gold) which caused many serious conflicts, including the famous Galiwan incident in 1878, whcih the Qing then tried to commit genocide of the Sakizaya tribe. Most of the tribesmen hid within the Amis tribes for safety. And the hiding went on until now. Since the Sakizayan language is more than 60% different from the Amis language, they were granted tribehood just last year.

Many Aboriginals that has Hanized are now searching their roots and wishes to be recognized as a tribe again. I wish that will happen some day.

The Aboriginal groups recorded by Japanese antropoligist:

Flatland tribes (North to South):

ketagalan: This group's name is the origin of the name of the Port City:JiLung, In Holo it is pronounced as KeLang. Lives from JiLung to Taibei.

luilang: Lives from Taibei to TaoYuan.

Taokas: Lives in TaoYuan (this name of the group again the is origin of the name of the place) HsinChu, to MiaoLi.

Pazeh: Lives around Taichung.

Papora: Lives in Taichung, ChingShui.

Babuza: South of River DaDu, north of the River ZhuoSui, one of the stronger tribes during Qing rule.

Hoanya: Lives from YuanLin to JiaYi.

Siraya: Lives from Tainan to Pingdong. This tribe had writting created for them by the Dutch. They continued to use this writting for contracts until the end of Qing rule.

There are many documents from the Dutch, Spanish to Qing and Japanese recording many more tribes. Most of which are now completely absorbed into Han society because the oppression they've faced otherwise. Some sources includes 乾隆台灣輿圖 Qian Long Taiwan Map, which shows the locations of many tribes graphically.

A publication by the National Palace Museum called 黎民之初：院藏臺灣原住民圖檔文獻展 Illustrated Historical Documents in the Collections of the National Palace Museum has pretty good information.

See the English NPM site (which also has Chinese and Japanese versions):

http://www.npm.gov.t...s/intro_en.html

thank you for listing the full list of aboriginal tribes , and also the interesting info from the palace museum, i was just wondering since there are so many tribes,

1) can they be further clustered into separate groups in accordance to language and cultural similarities?

2) since there are so many groups, it will be natural to think that there must be many wars between them especially before the chinese came into the picture... i wonder how much of pre-chinese history was preserved in folklores for example?

[naruwan]

lifezard, on Feb 26 2007, 09:14 AM, said:

i think officially yonaguni is japonic.. but it is definitely very differnt from japanese

for example:

head : ishigakijima = (shiburi), yonaguni = (minburu)

sea : ishigakijima = (tumori) , yonaguni = (unnaga)

cloud: ishigakijima= (hum) , yonaguni= (nmu)

(compare them to standard japanese)

i have attached the following s regarding yonaguni and neighboruing dialects, perhaps you can find some autronesian links to them?

http://wikitravel.or...guni_phrasebook
, i m just wondering from physical appearance , do they look similar?
thank you for listing the full list of aboriginal tribes , and also the interesting info from the palace museum, i was just wondering since there are so many tribes,

1) can they be further clustered into separate groups in accordance to language and cultural similarities?

2) since there are so many groups, it will be natural to think that there must be many wars between them especially before the chinese came into the picture... i wonder how much of pre-chinese history was preserved in folklores for example?

wait I take that back, appearently Taiwanese aboriginal do share root words with Yonaguni language then.

As you pointed out:


head : ishigakijima = (shiburi), yonaguni = (minburu), Kavalan = (uru) , Paiwan = (quLu) , Puyuma = (TanguruH) , Rukai = (aoLo)

Root word for head here seems to be *uru

sea : ishigakijima = (tumori) , yonaguni = (unnaga)

most Taiwanese aboriginal points to root word of *wa*, either wawa, or awas, or wasal

cloud: ishigakijima= (hum) , yonaguni= (nmu) , bunun = (luhum)

well, i don't know a lot cloud for Taiwanese aboriginal, but the one I do know, seems to show a root word of *hum.

They do look similar physically I guess. But even within the Taiwanese aboriginals have differences in my opinion...

by the way, the two islands shares a lot of wild life. Including wild mountain cats which looks identical.

This post has been edited by naruwan: 26 February 2007 - 07:55 PM

[naruwan]

here a picture of fish market in yonaguni



A picture of Idasao tribe in Taiwan

I think they do look similar physically.

With the root words I found similar, I guess Taiwan and Ryukyu is related in some way.

thanks, lifezard, i didn't even know about this.

[lifezard]

Quote

head : ishigakijima = (shiburi), yonaguni = (minburu)

i must apologise for transcribing wrongly

the word for head in ishigakijima is "tsuburi"

i will try to put a few more yonaguni words here:

dama - mountain (comparable to 'yama' of stndrd Japanese)

duru - night (comparable to 'yoru' of stndrd Japanese)

duu - hot water (comparable to 'yuu' of stndrd Japanese)

din - money ?

baya - home (comparable to 'heya' of stndrd Japanese)

fish - iyu (comparable to 'uo' of old Japanese)

[naruwan]

lifezard, on Feb 26 2007, 07:16 PM, said:

i must apologise for transcribing wrongly

the word for head in ishigakijima is "tsuburi"

i will try to put a few more yonaguni words here:

dama - mountain (comparable to 'yama' of stndrd Japanese) I think some Altayals says Yama, but I am not sure if it is a Japanese influence.

duru - night (comparable to 'yoru' of stndrd Japanese) Not for night, but for dark, some Taiwanese languages is ɖaruk

duu - hot water (comparable to 'yuu' of stndrd Japanese) ouch you got me on that one, I don't know that word....

din - money ? this word is influenced by the loan words.... paiso, pila, all points to some sort of Spanish influence.

baya - home (comparable to 'heya' of stndrd Japanese)

fish - iyu (comparable to 'uo' of old Japanese)

dama - mountain (comparable to 'yama' of stndrd Japanese) I think some Altayals says Yama, but I am not sure if it is a Japanese influence.

duru - night (comparable to 'yoru' of stndrd Japanese) Not for night, but for dark, some Taiwanese languages is ɖaruk

duu - hot water (comparable to 'yuu' of stndrd Japanese) ouch you got me on that one, I don't know that word....

din - money ? this word is influenced by the loan words.... paiso, pila, all points to some sort of Spanish influence.

baya - home (comparable to 'heya' of stndrd Japanese) nope, i think the most shared root word for home is q*uma*k, but the concept of home for some tribes is foreign.

fish - iyu (comparable to 'uo' of old Japanese) vulaw Elaw eoskL alaw is one groups of root words, iskan, *kang is another set of root word for fish. So this one seems little related.

By the way, can you find the word for "fire" in the Okinawan languages?

This post has been edited by naruwan: 26 February 2007 - 11:38 PM

[yingxiong]

So what is a correct classification so that everything would be within reason and politically correct? I only wish for everyone to respect each other instead of being racially prejudice within a nation and even discrimination between provinces and cities. I find some people have an unreasonable and shameful level of pride that discriminates between others because they want to feel superior about location and economics. It makes unity and co-operation so difficult and the biggest problem in stopping Chinese from being an objective superpower.

[naruwan]

yingxiong, on Feb 27 2007, 01:11 AM, said:

So what is a correct classification so that everything would be within reason and politically correct? I only wish for everyone to respect each other instead of being racially prejudice within a nation and even discrimination between provinces and cities. I find some people have an unreasonable and shameful level of pride that discriminates between others because they want to feel superior about location and economics. It makes unity and co-operation so difficult and the biggest problem in stopping Chinese from being an objective superpower.

why should making China become a super power be so important that some of you have to shove it down everyone's throat?

What's so different between USA as a super power and China as a super power?

China will be a super power with or without Taiwan simply because it's population. It's the military intention of China that bares war with the USA in mind that makes Taiwan a must have property.

So, sorry, I like to be masters of my own house.

Super powers really don't need to make up some historical, cultural or any moral high ground excuses to invade this tiny island anyway. So we can all cut the frak.

you can either come here to discuss Taiwanese and related Austronesian cultures and languages as this thread originally intended, or go spread propaganda else where.

This post has been edited by naruwan: 27 February 2007 - 03:59 AM

[Ryz05]

yingxiong, on Feb 27 2007, 03:11 AM, said:

So what is a correct classification so that everything would be within reason and politically correct? I only wish for everyone to respect each other instead of being racially prejudice within a nation and even discrimination between provinces and cities. I find some people have an unreasonable and shameful level of pride that discriminates between others because they want to feel superior about location and economics. It makes unity and co-operation so difficult and the biggest problem in stopping Chinese from being an objective superpower.

China is very much politically and culturally unified, so that's not a problem in its strive for greatness.

naruwan, on Feb 27 2007, 03:40 AM, said:

why should making China become a super power be so important that some of you have to shove it down everyone's throat?

What's so different between USA as a super power and China as a super power?

China will be a super power with or without Taiwan simply because it's population. It's the military intention of China that bares war with the USA in mind that makes Taiwan a must have property.

So, sorry, I like to be masters of my own house.

Super powers really don't need to make up some historical, culture or any moral high ground excuses to invade this tiny island anyway. So we can all cut the frak.

you can either come here to discuss Taiwanese and related Austronesian cultures and languages as this thread as originally intended, or go spread propaganda else where.

A strong China is the pride of all Chinese, just like a strong USA is the pride of all Americans. China already considers Taiwan as part of its territory, so there's no need for invasion.

[naruwan]

Ryz05, on Feb 27 2007, 02:00 AM, said:

A strong China is the pride of all Chinese, just like a strong USA is the pride of all Americans. China already considers Taiwan as part of its territory, so there's no need for invasion.

and when China invades your word of assurance would worth? my life?

have something to add to the topic, please do.

So what do you think the root word for "fire" is in Okinawan?

[naruwan]

lifezard, on Feb 26 2007, 09:14 AM, said:

thank you for listing the full list of aboriginal tribes , and also the interesting info from the palace museum, i was just wondering since there are so many tribes,

1) can they be further clustered into separate groups in accordance to language and cultural similarities?

2) since there are so many groups, it will be natural to think that there must be many wars between them especially before the chinese came into the picture... i wonder how much of pre-chinese history was preserved in folklores for example?

Sorry I seemed to have missed this part.

yes, linguistically they can be seperated into smaller groups.

Although there are many schools of thought on how it should be divided, it is generally said of the 13 different families of Austronesian, 12 are located in Taiwan.

Below are the two common classifications:

Formosan classification II

Austronesian

* Atayalic (Atayal, Seediq) [note alternate names for Seediq:Truku, Taroko, Sediq]
* East Formosan
o Northern (Basai-Trobiawan,Kavalan)
o Central (Amis)
o Southwest (Siraya)
* Puyuma
* Paiwan
* Rukai
* Tsouic (Tsou, Saaroa, Kanakanabu)
* Bunun
* Western Plains
o Central Western Plains (Taokas-Babuza, Papora-Hoanya)
o Thao
* Northwest Formosan (Saisiyat, Kulon-Pazeh)
* Malayo Polynesian (see below)

Formosan classification II

Austronesian

* Atayalic
* Tsou-Malayo-Polynesian
o Rukai-Tsouic
o Paiwan-Malayo-Polynesian
+ Paiwanic linkage: Amic, Bunun, Kulunic, Paiwan, Puyuma, Saisiyat, Thaoic
+ Malayo-Polynesian (see below)

These classifications are based on differences in grammar and words. And it is based on the fact that Austronesian language is most diverse in Taiwan that linguist theorized that Austronesian culture originated in Taiwan, which was later proven by DNA studies.

There are warfares. However large scale war is not common. Although to my knowledge there has been 3 strong kingdoms (大肚王、卑南王、and the leader of 排灣) that were recorded. Several myth regarding the disappearence of an ancient jade making tribe now referred to as 史前卑南文化人 Prehistoric civilization at Puyuma described that the tribe was wiped out. And myth regarding prehistorical Negritos being wiped out. However, most conflicts between tribes are dealt with a religious ritual called 出草 (The head hunt), and getting an enemy head at random calms the anchestrial spirit. And balance between the tribes (even villages within the tribes) are maintained with the head hunt and inter-marriages. The need for large scale warfare was rare.

There are actually stories of funny head hunts that I know. But these knowledge are becoming more and more rare with time.