[xng]

Karakhan, on Apr 16 2006, 03:24 PM, said:

There's alot of claims being thrown around in this discussion, and very little evidence or proof to back them up. Please do so, other wise this thread is pointless as it is becoming nothing more than a shouting match

The people who wrote the wikipedia article must have got it from some source. Could someone ask them for the reliable source ?

If someone have some history books written in china, please translate the history of the bai yue people. I am sure that when China conquered Fujien, Gwangdong, Gwangxi, Annam, they must have wrote about the people there.

But not all things need to have hard evidence in history books because journalism is not as advanced several thousand years ago as it is today:

1. Look at the migration of the han chinese to northeast china (manchurian territory). Can somebody here prove that NO intermarriages took place between the manchurians and the han chinese ?

2. Look at current day Thailand, there are many cases of han chinese and native tai marriages. This can be proved if people visit Thailand now and intermingle with the people there.

3. Look at the migration of the han chinese to malacca during the Ming dynasty, they intermarried the local malay to produce the offsprings called baba/nyonya. They even have houses to display the mixed culture. But these people are classified either as chinese or others nationally.

To say that the Han chinese had zero intermarriages with the bai yue or to say that they had 100% intermarriages would be too unbelievable. The question is, what is the percentage who were sinicised ?

I hope you won't close this topic again just because some members turn it into a shouting match but there may be other future members who may give some light at the end of the tunnel.

[xng]

qlittlelemon, on Apr 15 2006, 11:30 AM, said:

My Chinese language book titled " Wu-Yup = means CANTON ",has a chapter on northern Han Chinese Hakka migrations to Guangdong and Guangxi provinces clearly noted Hakkas " didn't intermixed with native population " rather set up own Hakka-speaking enclaves led to obvious distinctions between Hakka settlers and others in the region.Hakka people were well known as clannish and married within the community.

The hakka people are NOT the earliest migrants to guangdong or fujian provinces, the earliest migrants to fujien are the min people and the earliest migrants to guangdong are the cantonese people.

The cantonese people were already there during the Qin/han dynasty.
Zhao Tuo/Trieu Da himself married a Viet girl (I found this in wikipedia but forgot the link).

Usually during the earliest migration, the number of local women outnumber the number of han chinese migrants. It is only during later migrations, that the han chinese can more choices in marrying their own kind.

[qrasy]

xng, on Apr 17 2006, 02:32 PM, said:

To say that the Han chinese had zero intermarriages with the bai yue or to say that they had 100% intermarriages would be too unbelievable. The question is, what is the percentage who were sinicised ?

How would you try to approach this problem??

xng, on Apr 17 2006, 02:45 PM, said:

The hakka people are NOT the earliest migrants to guangdong or fujian provinces, the earliest migrants to fujien are the min people and the earliest migrants to guangdong are the cantonese people.

Language hints. Hakka language is closer to Mandarin than Cantonese to Mandarin.

Quote

The cantonese people were already there during the Qin/han dynasty.

The earliest migrant to Guangdong might be Min-speaking people, as we see Hainan and Leizhou mostly speak Min rather than Cantonese. Qin/Han dynasty language seems to be too complex+old compared to Cantonese.

Quote

Zhao Tuo/Trieu Da himself married a Viet girl (I found this in wikipedia but forgot the link).

I'd say this is a backless claim. If the name is recorded to be 5-syllabic then I can say nothing.

[xng]

qrasy, on Apr 17 2006, 02:19 AM, said:

The earliest migrant to Guangdong might be Min-speaking people, as we see Hainan and Leizhou mostly speak Min rather than Cantonese. Qin/Han dynasty language seems to be too complex+old compared to Cantonese.

I suggest you read the history of hainan. Hainan only had secondary Min migration much much later, just like the taiwanese Min.

This post has been edited by xng: 17 April 2006 - 07:36 AM

[xng]

http://www.geocities...an_chinese.html


How The Han Chinese Became The World's Biggest Tribe



PARIS (AFP) - The 1.16 billion Han Chinese, the world's biggest ethnic group, owe their rise thanks to massive southward migration from northern China led by the men of their tribe, according to a new study.

Chinese tradition says that the Han sprung from the ancient Huaxia communities of northern China and that their influence then spread south.

But the question is whether this was a migration of people or simply a cultural export -- whether the Han language, beliefs and other values were adopted by static communities who then handed it on to their southerly neighbours.

Genetic sleuthing by Chinese researchers may have found the answer.

Scientists led by Li Jin of Shanghai's Fudan University took blood samples from 871 individuals living in 17 communities across China.

They analysed the blood for telltale sequences in the Y chromosome, which only males have, and for variations of mitochondrial DNA, which is only handed down by women.

Little difference was found in the Y-chromosome fingerprint, but there were broad variations in the mitochondrial sequences. In other words, there was a clear Han lineage, determined by the males who initially came out of the north.

These men crossed the Yangtze River that until some 2,000 years ago was the country's ethnic divide. They then fanned out, progressively heading to the southwest, the southeast and due south, eventually colonising the tropical island of Hainan.

Li's team says the genetic evidence supports historical records which point to "continuous southward movements" of the Han due to warfare and famine in the north.

In the past two millennia, there have been three big migratory waves that pushed progressively further southwards, in AD 265-316, in 618-907, and in 1127-1279, with smaller migrations in between, according to the evidence from ancient scrolls and tablets.

"Our genetic observation is thus in line with the historical accounts," Li's team writes in Thursday's issue of Nature, the weekly British science journal.

"The massive movement of the northern immigrants led to a change in genetic makeup in southern China, and resulted in the demographic expansion of Han people as well as their culture."

In addition, gene flow between northern Hans, southern Hans and southern natives, also contributed to the genetic mix which shapes the distinctive genetic profile of China's populace today.

[xng]

http://www.uglychine.../vietnamese.htm

VIETNAMESE & SOUTHERNERS


To expound the myth of Koreans and the Altaic-speaking people, most recent DNA analysis needs to be incorporated. Doctorate Li Hui from Fudan University of China had analyzed the DNA of Asians to derive a conclusion that the ancestors of Mongoloid Asians possessed a distinctive Mark M89 by the time they arrived in Southeast Asia. About 30,000 years ago, from the launching pad of Southeast Asia, the early Mongoloids went through a genetic mutation to Marker M122.

Li Hui, at http://web.wenxuecity.com/BBSView.php?SubI...ory&MsgID=56818, claimed that the early migrants to the Chinese continent took three routes via two entries of Yunnan and Guangxi-Guangdong provinces. In the timeframe of about 10,000 years and developing a genetic mutation to marker M134, this branch of people who went direct north would penetrate the snowy Hengduan Mountains of Tibetan-Qinghai Plateau to arrive at the area next to the Yellow River bends. Owning to cold weather, big nose, heavy lips and long face developed among this group of people. Splitting out of this northbound migrants would be those who went to the east with a new genetic marker M117, i.e., ancestors of modern Han Chinese. However, our ancestors forgot that they penetrated northward the Hengduan Mountains from today's Vietnam. "Walking down Mt Kunlun", i.e., the "collective memory of ethnic Han Chinese" that was echoed in Guo Xiaochuan's philharmonic-agitated epic, was the starting point of the eastward migration which our Chinese ancestors remembered. Li Hui grouped the 3000-year-old Chu and Qi people in the same category as Han Chinese, albeit meeting the ancient classics records as to Qi statelet's lineage from the Qiangic-Tibetan Fiery Lord. The rest would develop into ancestors of today's Tibetans. This seems to corroborate with Scholar Luo Xianglin's claim that early Sino-Tibetan peoples originated from Mt Minshan and upperstream River Min-jiang areas of Sichuan-Gansu provincial borderline and then split into two groups, with one going north to reach Wei-shui River and upperstream Han-shui River of Shenxi Prov and then east to Shanxi Prov by crossing the Yellow River.

The second branch of early Mongoloids, about 10,000 years ago, entered China's southeastern coastline with genetic marker M119. Li Hui, claiming that same ancestry as the Dai-zu and Shui-zu minorities of Southwestern China, firmly believed that his ancestors had dwelled in Hangzhou Bay and Yangtze Delta for 7-8 thousand years. The people with M119 marker would be the historical "Hundred Yue Peoples". Li Hui then pointed out that the ancient Wu people, with M7 genetic marker, came to the lower Yangtze area about 3000 years ago. While Li Hui claimed that the M7 Wu people had split away from the northbound M134 Sino-Tibetan people, historical classics pointed out that Wu Statelet was established by two uncles of Zhou Dynasty King Wenwang, i.e., migrants from the Yellow River area.

The last interesting theory adopted by Li Hui would be still one more possible Mongoloid branch of people who, at about 20,000 years, continued to travel non-stop along the Chinese coastline to reach the Liao-he River area of Manchuria where they developed into Altaic-speaking peoples, i.e., ancestors of Huns, Turks and Mongols. This claim did corroborate with this webmaster's historical analysis of Huns, Turks and Mongols which yielded the conclusion that the Mongoloid had a pattern of raiding to the west, not the other way around by the Indo-Europeans. Today's Koreans, in the opinion of Li Hui, would be the mixtures of the early migrants to Manchuria and the later Dong-yi [Eastern Yi] migrants from Eastern China. This certainly dealt a blow to the Korean nationalists' claim of "Siberian origin". (See Assertions By Wang Zhonghan for clues as to the relationship between Qiangic Proto-Tibetan and Altaic Proto-Hun activities: "the northern barbarians and western barbarians were similar [i.e., Qiangs] at Spring-Autumn time period, but by the time of late Warring States, Chinese began to see the northern barbarians as different from the western barbarians".)




In this section on Vietnam, for simplicity's sake, I will lump together various peoples living to the south of ancient Chinese in lieu of separating them into Sanmiao (Three Miao) peoples, Dian-Yue (Yunnan Yue) People, the Dong-Yue (Eastern Yue) People, the Nan-Yue (Southern Yue) People, the Min-Yue (Fujian Yue) People, the natives living in the mountains of southwestern China, the Nan-Zhao people, the Burmese (Myanmar), the Thai people, the Taiwan natives, and the Vietnamese.

Southwest China, part of the plateau leading to Himalaya, was validated to be a spot full of traces of ancient homo erectus and homo sapiens. In this very spot, archaeologists had proven that ancient Yunnan Prov people could be the sole supplier of tin for the bronze of Shang Dynasty and succeeding Chinese dynasties. (Hair styles of men and women on bronze utensils excavated from ancient Dian-yue Statelet in Yunnan Prov had proved a continuity of customs among today's Yi-zu minority people. In between Southwestern China and Shang China would be Sichuan Prov where Sanxingdui Excavations yielded tremendous amount of bronze articles. Do note that Wei Chu-hsien, who attempted to validate an opposite movement of Yantze River Chinese towards the north and northwest by deciphering the literal meaning of the town of Wuxi [lietrally meaning "no tin"], had claimed that the tin of Shang Chinese came from a hill near Wuxi in Yangtze River mouth [where tin mine was exhausted in 3rd century BC], not from Southwestern China. Wei, who had contributions to the excavation of Liangzhu Culture in 1930s, did not get to know the Sanxingdui bronze culture in Sichuan Prov which apparently served as a venue for the tin of Southwest China to reach the Yellow River.)

In Prehistory, we mentioned that some advocates for southern aboriginals claimed that Chiyou (Chi-u) belonged to southern Chinese who descended from the Liangzhu Culture of the Yangtze River delta and that southerners had expanded into Hebei areas of northern China, instead. Conventional wisdom claimed that SanMiao was derived from Chiyou's Jiuli or "Nine Li[2] Tribes". Per Historian Fan Wenlan, Chiyou possessed 9 tribes, with nine sub-tribes each, totalling 81 tribes, and that is how the 81 Chiyou brothers came to be known in Sima Qian's "Shi Ji". Someone by the name of Qin Yanzhou speculated that Chiyou's Jiuli was an alliance of ox-totem southern proto-Nan-Man people and bird-totem eastern proto-Dong-Yi people. This speculation was based on the deficient ancient records as to the fightings between the Yellow Overlord, the Fiery Overlord and Chi-you in the absence of the powerful Dong-yi [i.e., Eastern Yi] tribal group. The Yi people, i.e., descendants of Tai-hao-shi & Shao-hao-shi that possessed a history earlier than Yellow Overlord & Fiery Overlord, did not identify themselves in ancient records during the fighting between Huangdi and Chiyou. Hence, it is possible that Chiyou's 9 tribal groups or 81 tribes had included the 'Yi' people. Compounding the perplexity further, Wei Juxian had followed through with literal interpretation of character 'li' in wildly speculating that Liangzhu Culture people of the Yangtze River delta, who had manufactured black-colored potteries as well as adored the black fish [i.e., snake-headed fish] as totem, might belong to the Negroid people.

After the loss of war, Chiyou was decapitated by the Yellow Overlord. The succeeding southerners recorded in Chinese history would be called San-miao. At the times of Lords Yao-Shun-Yu, the 'Sanmiao' (Three Miao) people had been living in the middle Yangtze River, taking Lake Dongting as their very homeland. The middle Yangtze River would remain marshlands and lakes till the time of the Chu State of the Warring States period (403-221 BC). The State of Chu, 1500 years after Xia Dynasty was first established, would still belong to an alien ethnical group, and they were the first group of people to reject the overlordship of the Zhou Dynasty by declaring themselves as a king of equal footing. Historic annals repeatedly claimed SanMiao people were mostly exiled to San-Wei-Shan Mountain in Gansu Province's Dunhuang to counter the Xirong or Western Rong people. Today's Miao-zu minority, numbering 5 million per 1982 census, are said to be descendants of ancient Lord Chiyou who headed the Nine Li[2] tribes, i.e., ancestors of SanMiao people. Miao-zu's epic talked about "westward migration", which pointed to the fact that they had probably dwelled more to the center and east of China in ancient times. Mainly in today's Guangdong and Hunan provinces would exist Zhuang-zu and Yao-zu minorities, and mainly in today's Guizhou and Guangxi provinces would exist Miao-zu, Zhuang-zu, and Yao-zu minorities. Miao-zu, Zhuang-zu, and Yao-zu, living more closer to central China, should have closer affiliations with ancient San-Miao people, with the same character 'miao' embedded.

However, should we buy Luu Simian's research, then San-miao people would have shared the same origin as ancient Chinese. In accordance with Luu Simian dissertation, San-Miao, with 'miao' meaning descendants, could point to three ancient clans and tribes of Dihong-shi, Jinyun-shi, Shaohao-shi as their ancestors. After San-miao, history recorded extensively the people that would come to be known as 'Man[2]' or 'Nan [southern] Man2 [barbarian]'. Scholar Luo Xianglin stated that five tribal groups of Xia, Qiang, Di[1], Yi, and Man[2] shared the same origin.


Origin of Yue [Viet] Peoples

The Hua-xia-centric historical accounts then recorded two important events about the ancient migrations from China's central plains to the Yangtze River mouth during the first and third Chinese dynasties of Xia and Zhou,, i.e., the grandson of Lord Yu assigned to the Kuaiji land to guard the tomb, and Tai-bo's launching own statelet in Yangtze River mouth instead of competing for power against the father of Zhou King Wenwang.

The corroborating fact would be Lord Yu's tomb on Mount Kuaijishan in Shaoxing, Zhejiang. One of the grandsons of Lord Yu was permanently assigned to the Kuaiji land to guard the tomb. The later Yue Principality was said to have descended from this lineage. Japanese, whom history chronicles repeatedly likened to the tattoo natives of the Yangtze Delta, had an interesting name for one of their four islands, i.e., Kyushu, a name that literally means the "nine prefectures" mapping the nine cauldrons that were supposedly devised by Lord Yu. The ancient books also recorded that Wa Japan must be situated to the east of Kuaiji Commandary. Chen Shou's San Guo Zhi recorded that the rice culture people living on the western coast of Japan around the 2-3rd centuries were recorded to have tattoos over their body, in a similar fashion to the Zhejiang people in Yantze Delta where the descendants of King Shaokang of Xia Dynasty (21-16th c. BC) had lived. (My speculation is that ancient Wa Japanese with Tai Bo lineage had been wiped out or assimilated into the later immigrants from Korea.) Another sentence in early Chinese history would be the record that people from the ancient Wa Japan claimed that they were the descendants of 'Tai Bo' [not the grandson of Lord Yu] and called themselves by the ancient title of 'Da Fu'. Tai Bo wanted to yield the succession to his brother because the ancient mandate said that the son of Tai Bo's brother (Ji Li) would be the future lord of Zhou people. Ji Li's son would be Ji Chang, i.e., Zhou King Wenwang posthumously.

While ancient records repeatedly claimed that Wa Japanese were the descendants of Tai-bo, the Yue people, who derived from the grandson of Lord Yu's Xia people, would spread across southeastern and southern Chinese coasts as the Yue people. Sima Qian, in "Shi Ji", stated that the peoples of Nan-yue [Southern Yue] and Min-Yue [Fujian Prov Yue], i.e., descendants of the Gu-yue [Ancient Yue statelet], must have retained the spirits of Lord Yu the father of Xia Dynasty founder. In the eyes of Sima Qian and ancient historians, the Bai-yue[Hundred] Yue peoples would be traced to the same origin, i.e., the grandson of Lord Yu. Note that scholar Luo Xianglin linked ancient Yue people to Xia people on basis of the common lexicon 'yue' which meant for excavated ancient "stone axe".


Southern Minority Peoples

The natives living in the mountains of southwestern China number the most variety in today's China. Especially noteworthy would be Yunnan Prov, i.e., the original habitation of ancient Nan-zhao & Da-li statelets. Among 56 ascertained ethnic groups, Yunnan Prov was in possession of 26 groups, comprising of one third of the provincial population. Specific to Yunnan Prov would be about 16 groups, while the other 10 lived across multiple provinces and borders.

Dwelling in Yunnan would be the following ethnic groups: Lahu-zu, Pumi-zu, Nu-zu (nu meaning angry, and a river was named Nu-jiang, too), Dulong-zu (i.e., lonely dragon), and Jinuo-zu. Other ethnic groups in Yunnan that span across provinces would be Zang-zu (Tibetan), Hui-zu (Muslim), Miao-zu (the same 'miao' character as SanMiao), Zhuang-zu, and Yao-zu. Separately, the provinces of Guizhou, Guangxi, Guangdong, Hunan and Sichuan harbored numerous other ethnic groups. In Guizhou Prov could be found Shui-zu (water), Gelao-zu, and Buyi-zu, in addition to cross-border groups like Miao-zu, Yi-zu, Dong-zu, Zhuang-zu, and Yao-zu. In Guangxi Prov could be found Mulao-zu, Maonan-zu, Jing-zu, in addition to cross-border groups like Miao-zu, Dong-zu, Zhuang-zu, and Yao-zu. (Jing-zu is the majority ethnic group in today's Vietnam.) Zhuang-zu and Yao-zu also dwelled in Guangdong and Hunan provinces. In the south and southeast, Hainan-dao Island possesses Li-zu minority. Fujian & Zhejiang provinces possess She-zu minority. Gaoshan-zu (high mountain ethnic group) would be in Fujian Prov & Taiwan Island.

Per Scholar Zhan Quanyou ("The Culture of Nan-zhao & Da-li Statelets", 2002 edition, Sichuan People's Press, Chengdu, Sichuan), Yi-zu's ancestor would be Wu-man (i.e., black barbarian); Bai-zu's ancestor would be Bai-man (i.e., white barbarian); Dai-zu's or Thai ancestor would be Jin-chi-man (i.e., gold teeth barbarian), Yin-chi-man (i.e., silver teeth barbarian), Hei-chi-man (i.e., black teeth barbarian) and Mang-man; Bulang-zu and De'ang-zu belonged to Pu-zi-man; Wa-zu belonged to Wang-man; A'chang-zu belonged to Xunchuan-man; Jingbo-zu belonged to Luo-xing-man (i.e., nude body barbarian); Naxi-zu belonged to Mo-xie-man; Lisu-zu belonged to Shi-man and Shun-man; and Hani-zu belonged to He-man. (Here, Bai or Wu has nothing to do with the color of the skin, and both groups belonged to Sino-Tibetan Di[1]-Qiang[1] people.)

Zhan Quanyou further grouped Dai-zu under Bai-yue or Hundred Yue Family; Bulang-zu, De'ang-zu and Wa-zu under Bai-pu or Hundred Pu[2] Family; A'chang-zu, Jingbo-zu, Naxi-zu, Lisu-zu, Bai-zu, Yi-zu and Hani-zu under Di[1]-Qiang[1] Family.

Dominance Of Tibeto-Burman Language

Brief Introductions To Southern Minorities



Early Southern Statelets

Sima Qian's "Shi Ji" & Ban Gu's "Han Shu" said that among the southern barbarians, the Yelang Statelet, located in the southwestern mountains of today's Guizhou Province, was the biggest of all. Further to the west will be a statelet called Dian-Yue [or Dian], located in today's Yunnan Province. (Early Yunnan Prov civilization, located around Erhai Lake, was validated to have possessed bronze technology dating from 12th century BC, and this bronze technology spread eastward to reach the peak around Dianchi Lake by 1st century AD.) North of Dian would be a statelet called Qiongdu bordering today's Sichuan. In eastern Yunnan and southern Sichuan would be a country called Bo. Half a dozen small statelets existed to the southwest of Sichuan Province at that time. Sima Qian, on basis of position of Sichuan Prov, classified southwestern barbarians into two groups of Nan-yi (i.e., southern barbarians) and Xi-yi (i.e., western barbarians). Nan-yi would be equivalent Pu-Yue people, while Xi-yi would be Di[1]-Qiang[1] people.

While Yue people had migrated to the westward, Pu people as well as Di[1]-Qiang[1] people had migrated southward. Ancestors of Pu people, at the time of Shang-Zhou transition, i.e., 1122 BC, lived to the south of Han-shui River, somewhere between Sichuan and Hubei provinces. "Shi Ji" recorded that Zhou King Wuwang, calling his troops by the name of 'people from the west', had included eight barbarian statelets as allies, including the Qiangs from Gansu, the Shu-Sou-Mao-Wei statelets in Sichuan Province, Lu and Peng from the northwest, and Yong and Pu south of the Han-shui River.

King Weiwang (reign 339-329 BC) of Chu Principality, during the Warring States period, ordered his General Zhuang Qiao on a campaign along the Yangtze River. Chu army conquered Ba (namely, Chongqing city or the area around the Dabashan Mountains of today's Sichuan Prov), and the middle of Qian (namely, today's Guizhou Province). He arrived at Dianchi, a lake in today's Yunnan Province. General Zhuang was said to have pacified dozens of Mimo clans. But General Zhuang was cut of by Qin Army which inavded Sichuan and took over Zhuang Qiao's return path. Hence, General Zhuang returned to Dianchi Lake and declared himself King of Dian Statelet in approx 263 BC, and for one hundred years, the Dian Statelet was disconnected with Qin China and Han China.

Qin extended its influence southward, crossed the Jinshajiang River (gold sand river), and reached north and northwest of Yunnan Prov. After Qin Shihuangdi's succession of the throne in 246 BC, Li Bing, the "tai shou" [i.e., governor for Sichuan] who built the Dujiangyan Fork Dam, began to build roads leading towards Daobo (today's Yibing of Sichuan) bordering Yunnan Prov. After Qin unification of China in 221 BC, "tai shou" Chang E extended the road to Yunnan Prov's Shaotong and Qujing on basis of Li Bing's pavement. This is the so-called "Five Chinese Feet Road" [i.e., wu chi dao] that was paved with raw stone slates, with trace of over thousand meter long recognizable today still.

Archaeological Discoveries & Origin of Peoples In Southwest:
Scholar Zhan Quanyou pointed out i) that Yunnan Prov possessed a variety of mono-color potteries dating from the Neolithic Age; ii) that southeastern region of Yunnan province exhibited similar pattern on stone hatchets as excavations of Southeast China; and iii) that middle, western and northwestern regions of Yunnan province exhibited similar potteries, stone weapons, burial customs and building patterns as excavations from the Yellow River area. Zhan Quanyou cited museum chief Li Kunsheng in stating i) that west of Guizhou and east/northeast of Yunnan belonged to the domain of ancient Lao-ren [Liao-ren] people, ii) that Guangxi, Vietnam and southeast of Yunnan belonged to the domain of ancient Luo-yue people, iii) that central Yunnan like Dianchi Lake and Lancangjiang River (i.e., the Mekong River in upper stream) areas belonged to the domain of ancient Di[1]-Qiang[1] people and ancient Pu-yue people; and that iv) western Yunnan Prov like Baoshan city belonged to the domain of ancient Dian-yue people. Zhan Quanyou further stated that ancient Di[1]-Qiang[1] people had apparently arrived at Erhai Lake of Yunnan Prov via Jinshajiang River in northwestern Yunnan Prov.

In Yunnan Prov, 3000-year-old stone carvings had been discovered, with totem-like pictures like snakes and lizards (i.e., dragon totem), birds (i.e., phoenix totem) and gourd (i.e., a plant similar to the shape of a woman's body that was often cited as the source of human creation by minority people like Wa-zu). Cangyuan area of Yunnan Prov was called Hulu-guo or Gourd Country in ancient times.

Zhan Quanyou's conclusion is that Yunnan Prov was a localized culture mixed up with the two groups of Hundred Yue people from southeast and Di[1]-Qiang[1] people from the northwest, respectively, and that Dali-Nanzhao statelets were the result of exchanges between two cultures of Erhai Lake to the west and Dianchi lake to the east. Per Scholar Zhang Zengqi, 3800-year-old Erhai Lake culture, on basis of carbon data, exhibited a typical rice planting culture that could be seen to the south of the Yangtze River, with agri-tools and rice traces etc, whereas the potteries, half-cave buildings and burial sites of this area shared similarities with Majiayao Culture of Qinghai Prov and Banpo Culture (i.e., Yangshao Culture) in Xi'an of Shaanxi Prov.

Alternatively speaking, Scholar Zhang Zengqi stated that in ancient times, there existed two groups of people with husbandry and agriculture modes of life in Erhai area; that Kunming-man around Lanchangjiang River Valley, not the same as Di-Qiang nomadic people, were native husbandry people who entered Erhai Lake area in 12th century BC and later merged with Ailao-yi after Kunming-man were defeated by Nanzhao Statelet during Tang Dynasty time period; that part of Kunming-man would become later Wa-zu (Wabeng-zu) minority; that Siyu-man (aka Yeyu-man) were the native agriculture people in Erhai Lake area who later were relocated to Dianchi Lake by Nanzhao Statelet during Tang Dynasty time period; that Baopu-man, a group belonging to Khmers (i.e., Gao[high]Mian[cotton]) of Austroasiatic Language Family, entered Erhai area about 8th-6th century BC; that Bo-ren, who originally dwelled in eastern Yunnan Prov, would enter Erhai area about 1st-8th century AD and become later Bai-man (i.e., today's Bai-zu minority); and that Ailao-yi, ancestors of today's Yi-zu minority who originally dwelled in Yongchang and Ailao-shan Mountain area, would establish the Nan-zhao Statelet under the support of Tang Dynasty and Bai-man.

Khmers & Mon People:
Ancient Khmers, said to be of Austroasiatic Language Family, for sure had migrated towards the land of today's Thailand in the south. What remained unsure would be whether it was related to the southwestern expansion by Qin/Han Chinese. http://www.khmerclub.com/History.htm claimed that the ancestors of Khmers "moved southward before 200 BC into the fertile Mekong delta from the Khorat Plateau of what is now Thailand". Thereafter, they were Indianized by successive waves of Indian influence [Funan's legend of creation by marriage of an Indian Brahmin Kaundinya to an indigenous "naga" princess] and ... were exposed to Indo-Malayan influences [Java's conquest of Chenla]...More Indian influence [ANGKOR period A.D. 889-1434] ... followed by migrations of Tai [Siam] peoples from the 10th to the 15th century [Dali King, Duan Zixing, surrendered to the Mongols in AD 1253], by a Vietnamese [Champa] migration beginning in the 17th century, and by Chinese migrations in the 18th and 19th centuries. Khmers' move into the Mekong Delta before 2nd century BC, however, might have cut off the contacts between Dravidians stranded in Champa of Vietnam and those who remained in Indian Subcontinent, in my opinion. In the Mekong Delta already existed a statelet called Funan as recorded in Chinese Chronicles in 2nd century AD, a maritime state with same commercial importance as Champa in acting as a stopover for Arabs/Romans and Chinese. Funan was later conquered by its vassal, i.e., Chenla ("Kambuja" by Khmer), which was said to be a "more direct ancestor of the Khmer Empire" per http://spirit.dos.uc...ge/history.html in 7th century AD. Defeated by Java, Prince Jayavarman II of Chenla served hostage at the Java court and returned to become king of a later Angkor Empire in 790 AD. Zhenla or Chang-la, spelled Zhenla in Mandarin, was recorded in Chinese chronicles to be a country where male population were small in size but dark in skin, some females were said to have lighter skin, and the Chang-la people all had curly hair.

There is a good possibility that ancient Mon people were related to the ancient Khmers. Mons were said to have occupied the central plain (Menam Delta) and northern highland of modern Thailand and Burma, while the Khmers in Cambodia and Laos. Both Mon and Khmer were grouped under the same language branch. From 6th century AD onward, Mon had developed a culture with a lot of import from Buddhism and Sanskrit and were said to have diffused the Indian culture to the Khmers. Sanwiched between the Khmer Kingdom of Angkor Wat and the Thai from Southern China, the Mon territory shrank into Southern Burma. When the Burmese rose to power in Pagan in 11th century, the Mon sufferred further oppression from the Burmese. By the 18th century, Burmese Ruler U Aungzeya destroyed the last remaining Mon stronghold and massacred innumerable Mon people.

Nan-Yue Statelet:
Early Han Dynasty was, in fact, a restoration of Zhou Dynasty's feudal system. Numerous independent statelets were in existence. Han[4] Emperor Liu Bang had conferred kingship to numerous generals who contributed to the overthrow of Qin Empire and the later campaigns against General Xiang Yu. For example, King Lu Wan of Yan Principality, was one of the non-Liu kings. Among the non-Liu kings, Marquis of Huaiying, Han Xin, was demoted to marquis from kingship. King of Han[2] Principality defected to the Huns for fear of his failure in resisting the Huns. After King of Han[2] Principality defected to the Huns, the prime minister of Dai Principality, Chen Xi (a friend of Marquis of Huaiying, Han Xin), rebelled against Han[4] Emperor. Chen Xi himself defected to the Huns after losing battles to Han Emperor, while Han Xin (who had earlier encouraged Chen Xi to plot the rebellion out of anger at Han Emperor for demoting him to marquis from king) was executed together with his wife and mother's lineages, so-called 3 lineage extinction, by Han Empress Luu Hou (i.e., Gaohou). King Peng Yue of Liang Principality did not answer the call to quell the Chen Qi rebellion. He was arrested by Emperor Liu Bang and put to death by Empress Luu Hou. King Ying Bu of Huainan Principality was accused by his minister of plotting to rebel against Han[4] Emperor, and during the battle, he wounded Emperor Liu Bang with an arrow. Ying Bu was killed by his relative, King Wu Chen of Changsa Principality when he fled to Changsha for asylum. Later, the non-Liu kings were reduced to King of Changsa Principality, only. Emperor Liu Bang had conferred 8 king titles to his own kinsmen (6 being Liu Bang's own sons and 2 the sons of his two brothers). The 8 kings would be for Qi, Chu, Dai, Wu, Zhao, Liang, Huaiyang and Huainan.

Among the non-Chinese statelets would be the Nan-Yue or Southern Yue Statelet led by Zhao Tuo, an ex-Qin general with the title of 'wei' [captain] for Nanhai (i.e., southern sea) Commandary. Zhao Tuo united the commandaries of Guilin, Nanhai, and Xiang-jun. Here, the prefix 'Nan' means southern. Other than Nan-yue, Min-Yue Statelet would be in existence in today's Fujian Province, while Dong-Yue Statelet would be near today's Wenzhou, Zhejiang Province. Across southern China and within the boundary of southeastern and southern costal arch line would be more tribal statelets like Dong-di, Yang-yue, Dong-ou, Xi-ou, Luo-yue, and Dian-yue which invariably shared similar customs and traits like bronze drums, boat building, adoring snakes or dragons, hair-cutting and tattoo.

Central China and the region of the lower Yangtze was well connected since the time of Lord Yu. Lord Yu's son, Shaokang, assigned one of his sons to Shaoxing for guarding Lord Yu's tomb. Zhou King Wenwang's uncles came to the delta to launch their own statelet later. The Wu State was founded by two uncles of King Zhou Wenwang: the two uncles decided to go to the Yangtze Delta to launch a state because they did not want to contend with their brother Ji-li (i.e., later Zhou King Wenwang). The Zhou court later conferred the descendants of the two brothers the title of Count. Later, during the time of the Zhou dynasty, Yue and Wu were set up in the region of Hangzhou Bay. At the beginning of the fifth century BC, Yue defeated the rival state of Wu on the Taihu Lake and in present-day Suzhou. But Yue was conquered by Chu in 334 BC. When Chu was conquered by Qin General Wang Jian in 223 BC, the former territory of Yue was made into the commandery of Kuaiji in 222 BC. Altogether 36 commandaries were zoned in 221 BC. Under Qin empire, 'Zhi-Dao', i.e., straight highways, were built aross the nation, all originating from the capital. In the north, after the rebuilding of the Great Wall, General Meng Tian was ordered to pave a road across the mountains to reach Inner Mongolia. To the south, a highway would continue up the valley of the Xiangjiang River, along the present-day railway line, southeastward into Lingling.

South of the county of Lingling, by the present-day town of Xingan, Shihuangdi had a canal cut across the watershed to link the Xiangjiang River with the Lijiang River. This is the Ling Qu ("Magic Trench") built for sake of conquest of the south. In 218 BC, 500,000 Qin army, headed by captain Tu Sui, moved southwards and eastwards from today's Jiangxi Province in five columns, crossed Wuyishan Mountains, and went southwards to Guangdong. For three years, Yue people resisted Qin army using guerilla tactics. To support the war efforts, 34 kilometer long Ling-qu Canal was dug to link up Xiang-jiang River to Li-jiang river under the supervision of Jian Lu. Li Zongren memoirs pointed out that Qin Dynasty's Shi Lu [Jian Lu?], at the link point, had constructed the two banks and waterbed of Li-shui & Xiang-jiang river with cubic stones that could weigh several tons and still exist without erosion today. Special human-shaped dams were constructed for controlling water levels and controlling ships. Qin expeditions conquered two small statelets of the Yue people, in present-day Wenzhou and Fuzhou, and set up the commandery of Minzhong. Qin conquered and annexed territories covering present-day Guangdong, Guangxi and northern Vietnam, and part of Fujian. Qin killed a tribal chieftan of Xi-ou by the name of Yi-yu-song, and took over Luliang [Luo-yue?] land in 214 BC. Qin Emperor Shihuangdi, after conquering the south, set up the commandaries of Guilin, Nanhai, and Xiangjun etc. Guerilla warfare of the Yue people killed Tu Sui. Qin Shihuangdi then conferred "captain [wei] of Nanhai" onto Ren Xiao and "magistrate [ling] of Longchuan" onto Zhao Tuo, to be in charge of 500,000 secondary class citizens like merchants, convicts and men who married to wives' homes. Additionally, 150,000 women were dispatched to southern China for supporting the men.

When uprisngs occured against Qin throughout China, Ren Xiao, at death bed, instructed that Zhao Tuo take over the 'captain' post. Zhao Tuo seized and blocked the passes through the Nan Ling (southern ridges), killed imperial designatories, and declared himself an emperor when he heard about the peasant uprisings against the Qin Empire. In 207 BC, Zhao Tuo campaigned against Guilin and Xiang-jun commandaries, united the three commandaries, and declared the statehood of Nan-yue. In 193 [196?] BC, Han Emperor Liu Bang sent Lu Jia and a seal to Nan-Yue Statelet. Zhao Tuo downgraded his title to that of a king. Han Dynasty then rescinded the previosu conferral of southern territories from King Wu Rui of Changsha. Several conflicts broke out between Nan-yue and King of Changsha in the ensuing dozen years. At the time of Empress Luhou, Zhao Tuo again upgraded his title to that of an emperor. This was because Empress Luu-hou, in the spring of 183 BC, decreed that ironworks and female cattle, sheep and horses would be forbidden from export to Nan-yue. Zhao Tuo's emissary was retained in Chang'an the capital; Zhao Tuo's ancestral tombs were dug up; and Zhao Tuo's kinsmen were persecuted and executed. To counter King Changsha, Zhao Tuo allied with chieftans of Min-yue, Xi-ou and Luo-yue. Zhao Tuo mounted an unsuccessful campaign against Changsha. In Sept of 181 BC, Luu-hou rescinded the seal of King of Nan-yue and dispatched troops [under Rong Luuhou] against the south. One year later, Han army failed to advance while Luu-hou passed away. Zhao Tuo sought for peace . Emperor Wendi agreed to it. Zhao did not downgrade it till he was visited by emissary Lu Jia of the new emperor, Han Emperor Wendi (reign BC 179-157). Wendi won back Zhao Tuo by repairing Zhao's ancestral graves in Zhending [i.e., Dingzhou of Hebei Prov] of northern China.

Min-Yue Statelet:
King of Min-Yue or Min Yue Statelet, Wuzhu, and King Yao of Dong-Yue, were all descendants of the old Yue Principality from the Warring States period. Their family name was 'Zou'. Both Wuzhu and Yao were downgraded into chieftans after Qin defeated them and reunited China. With the fall of Qin, Min-Yue of Fuzhou and Dong-Ou (Dong-Yue) of Wenzhou re-asserted themselves. Min-Yue of Fuzhou and Dong-Ou (Dong-Yue) of Wenzhou joined the governor of Fanyang, Wu Rui, namely, the King of later Changsha Principality, in the uprisings against Qin Empire. General Xiang Yu did not confer them kingship after defeating Qin Empire. So they allied with Liu Bang in defeating Xiang Yu. They were recognised by both General Xiang Yu and later Han Emperor Liu Bang.

In 202 BC, Wuzhu was conferred the title of King of Min-Yue by Han Emperor Gaodi (Liu Bang).

Dong-Yue Statelet:
Sima Qian, in comments about the length of Min-Yue & Dong-Yue Statelets, said that the 'Yue' People must have inherited Lord Yu's spirits. One claim would put all Yue people, i.e., Bai Yue or Hundred Yue Peoples, in the same lineage as Lord Yu's descendants. Min-Yue & Dong-Yue were related to so-called 'Gu-yue' or Ancient Yue Statelet located in Hangzhou, Zhejiang Prov. (After Han Emperor Wudi defeated Min-Yue of Fuzhou and Dong-Ou or Eastern Ou (Dong-Yue) of Wenzhou, there existed a remnant statelet called Xi-Ou [Western Ou].)

In 192 BC, Yao was conferred the title of King of Donghai (East Sea) by Han Emperor Huidi. The capital was in Dong'ou and hence he was referred to as King of Dong'ou. Here, the prefix 'Dong' means eastern. Dong-Yue Statelet had been upheld by Han Dynasty for its contribution in the uprisings against the Qin Empire.

In 135 BC, namely, Jianyuan 6th year of Han Emperor Wudi, however, Min-Yue attacked Dong-Ou, and besieged Dong-Ou capital. Dong-Ou asked for help from Han court. Han court relocated Dong-Ou (Dong-Yue) people northward, to the area between the Yangtze River and the Huai River. Min-Yue took over the vacant land of Dong-Ou (Dong-Yue). In Aug of 135 BC, King Zou Ying of Min-yue attacked Nan-yue. King Zhao Hu reported to Han Emperor Wudi, and Han dispatched army against Min-yue. Brother Yu-shan killed King Zou Ying with short spear and surrendered Zou Ying's head to Han Emperor Wudi. A grandson of Min-yue founder king Wu-zhu, i.e., Yao-jun [Prince Yao], by the name of Chou, was made into the new king. Since Yu-shan had attempted at kingship, Han court relocated Yu-shan to Dong-ou to be King of Dong-yue.

Another generation later, after the conquest of Nan-Yue by Han Emperor Wudi, Min-Yue, now also known as Dong-Yue, would be attacked by Han armies under the pretext that they tried to take advantage of Han'a war with Nan-Yue. A combined force of armies from Yuzhang and ships from Hangzhou Bay destroyed the state. Min-Yue people were relocated northward to the areas of Huai and the Yangtze rivers.

For the next three hundred years, Fujian and east of the Wuyishan Mountains would be quiet. It would be until the time of Han Emperor Shundi of Later Han, in AD 138, that the former territory of Dong-Ou would become the county of Yongning-xian.


Hidden Trade Routes of The South:
In 135 BC, Han emissary, Tang Meng, was dispatched to Yelang Statelet, and noted that Nan-Yue or Southern Yue was using soy sauce from Sichuan Province. Yelang Statelet, with 100,000 strong army, was targeted by Han as a ally in the war on Southern Yue. Han emissary said that the Zangke River (a place in today's Sichuan Province), by which the Yelang Statelet dwelled, would flow into Panyü of today's Guangdong Province. Looking at the map, we could assume the ancient Zangke River must have flowed down today's Guizhou Province to converge with the West River of Guangdong Province.

Around 122 BC, Zhang Qian saw cloth of Sichuan in Bactria (i.e., Afghanistan) and reported that he saw Zangke bamboo products and Sichuan clothing which the Bactrian merchants said were shipped over from India. Emperor Wudi then ordered 4 search teams to the southwest in search of a route to India. Earlier, from the mouth of a defecting Hun, Wudi learnt about a country called Yüeh-chih Major to the west of the Huns. Hence, he sent an emissary called Zhang Qian, a Hun guide called Tangyifu and 100 people on a trek across the west. Zhang etc was arrested by the Huns soon, and he was forced to live among the Huns for dozens of years and he had married and born two children. Zhang, however, did not forget about Wudi's order, and he fled with his Hun guide to the west and reached the state of Da'yuan (Fergana), and with the assistance from Da'yuan king, was escorted to Kangju where the Kanju king assisted him further on his trip to Bactria, the new home where the Yüeh-chih Major settled down.

The trade route through the southwest was named 'Shu Yuan Du Dao', i.e., Sichuan-Indu Road, that could penetrate Piao (i.e., Burma) to arrive in India. From Sichuan to Yunnan, two paths, Zhuti-dao and Lingguan-dao, existed before they converged into Chuxiong. The segment from Chuxiong to Burma was named Bonan-dao, named after Bonan Mountain in today's Dali-zhou Autonomous Prefecture of Yunnan Prov. Han Emperor Wudi, in 105 BC, established, along Bonan-dao Path, four counties of Yunnan-xian (Xiangyun), Xianlong-xian (Weishan), Yeyu-xian (Dali), and Bisu-xian (Yunlong), and two more counties of Buwei-xian and Suitang-xian to the south of Bonan Mountain. In 69 BC, Bonan-xian was set up in today's Yongping of Yunnan Prov.


Han's Conquest Of Southern Statelets

In 137 BC, Zhao Tuo passed away at the age of over 100. Grandson Zhao Hu succeeded him. In Aug of 135 BC, King Zou Ying attached Nan-yue. Zhao Hu reported to Han Emperor Wudi, and Han dispatched army against Min-yue. Brother Yu-shan killed King Zou Ying by short spear and surrendered the head to Han Emperor Wudi. Zho Hu then dispatched Prince Ying-qi to Chang'an the Han capital. Ying-qi did not return till 122 BC when Zho Hu fell ill. Ying-qi assumed the kingship till he passed away in 112 BC. Zhao Xing, a son born during the stay in Chang'an, would succeed Ying-qi.

Nan-Yue rebelled as a result of its prime minister killing the young king, Zhao Xing, the great grandson of Zhao Tuo. This had to do with the adultery of the Han emissary with the mother of Nan-Yue king. Zhao Xing's father was a hostage in Han court and he married a kind of 'singer' woman; however, this woman was an old mistress of the Han emissary who visited Nan-Yue later. Nan-Yue Prime Minister, with the backing of Zhao Guang (King of Cangwu of Nan-Yue, a place in today's Guangxi Province bordering Guangdong), rebelled against Han. Hen Emperor Wudi intended to call Zhao Xing to the capital. Wudi dispatched Anguo Shaoji [i.e., lover of Zhao Xing's mother] to Nan-yu as well as stationed Luo Bode's troops at Guiyang as a military detente. Prime minister Luu Jia barely escaped from the assassination attempt by Zhao Xing's mother. Wudi then dispatched Han Qianqiu and 2000 soldiers to the relief of Zhao Xing's mother. Luu Jia and his brother then took initiative, laid siege of the palace, and killed Zhao Xing, the dowager queen, and Han emissary. Luu Jia erected Zhao Jiande, a son born by Ying-qi with a southern Yue woman, as the new king. Han Qianqiu and 2000 soldiers were destroyed about 20 kilometers away from Fanyu [i.e., Canton]. Han Emperor Wudi sent Lu Bode and several columns of armies, about 100,000 strong, to campaign in southern China. A naval fleet arrived at Panyu, namely, today's Canton, at the mouth of Zhujiang Delta, to attack Nan-Yue from the sea. When the Nan-yue remnants fled to the sea, the fleet pursued them to the Gulf of Tongking in Vietnam. Lu Bode's army sacked Canton in the winter of 111 BC, and killed Luu Jia and Zhao Jiande. Nan-yue land, including central and northern parts of today's Vietnam, were made into commandaries of Nanhai, Cangwu, Yuelin [Guilin], Jiaozhi, Jiuzhen, Rinan, Zhuya and Dan'er. The kingdom of Nan-Yue, starting from 207 BC and lasting five generations, continued under Zhao Tuo and his successors for almost a hundred years until it was reconquered by the armies of Emperor Wudi in 111 BC.

Southern barbarians in Guizhou and Sichuan provinces were called upon as auxiliaries. But they killed Han emissary. Han armies killed the chief of southern barbarians and made the territory into Zangke (Yangke?) Commandary, namely, today's Guizhou Prov, in 111 BC. Four more commandaries were set up southwest of Sichuan, including Yuesui Commandary (today's southwestern Sichuan and northern Yunnan), Shenli Commandary (today's Daduhe River area in Sichuan Prov), Wenshan Commandary (today's Wenchuan and Songpan of western Sichuan Prov) and Wudu Commandary (today's southern Gansu and southern Shenxi Prov). Yelang Statelet was pacified and conferred kingship. Dian, aka Shoumi-guo, which Scholar Zhan Quanyou stated was built upon a Shoumi tribal statelet, was the next target. Two years later, Han Emperor mobolized armies of Ba and Shu (i.e., Sichuan) for a southern campaign, exterminated the tribal statelets of Laojin (i.e., today's Malong) and Mimo (today's Qujing) in eastern Yunnan Prov, and amassed forces onto Dian Kingdom and forced it into submission. In 109 BC, Dian Kingdom was conferred as a king, with a gold seal. (In Nov 1956, excavations of Shizhaishan Mountains tombs in Jinning produced a royal gold seal bearing Han Dynasty's conferred title of 'Seal Of King Dian' in addition to bronze musical instruments and swords with gold sheath.) Yizhou Commandary, with governor office at today's Jinning of Yunnan, was set up to control the domain. In western Yunnan, Buwei County, i.e., today's Baoshan, was setup, and in the south, Laiwei County (today's Laizhou Prov of Vietnam) was set up.

In southwestern China, local resistance to sinicization was occasionally successful. In Latter Han Dynasty, Han would have to re-assert its influence that was lost due to the intermittent dynastic substitution by Xin Dynasty. In 36 AD, one group of Li-ren barbarians, who were said to be affilaited with Lao-ren barbarian, sought suzerainty with Chinese court. However, in AD 40, Vietnamese women, i.e., Zheng (or Trung) sisters, rebelled with support from Li-ren barbarians from Jiuzhen, Rinan and Hepu. The non-Chinese people of Wuling commandery, especially the people in Wuqi ["Five Gorges"], on the upper reaches of the Yuan River, by the present-day Hunan-Guizhou border, defeated local Han army in 48 AD. General Ma Yuan would mount a full campaign in the south. General Ma Yuan erected bronze monuments in eulogy of his victories. He erected a kind of gate on the West River. Ma Yuan went further southward and he also set up some bronze monuments in Champa, today's central to southern Vietnam. "New History Of Tang Dynasty" recorded that there were ten households in the name of Ma dwelling in Champa area, and those people refused to return to China with General Ma. 500 years later, by Sui Dynasty, the ten families had multiplied into 300 households.

Wuling commandery had a major rebellion in the early 160s AD. In AD 178, Wuhu [Wuqi?] barbarians in Jiaozhi [northern Vietnam] and Hepu [Guangdong-Guangxi border], i.e., the land of Xi-ou and Luo-yue, rebelled. The Wuhu [Wuqi] barbarians, with a recorded cannibalism habit of eating first-born sons, continued rebellions during the Three Kingdoms period. During Three Kingdoms time period, Zhuge Liang, prime minister of Shu State, had once campaigned against southern barbarians led by someone called Meng Huo. Legends said that Zhuge Liang captured Meng Huo seven times and set him free for sake of captivating the hearts of southern barbarians.


The 'MAN' Barbarians

In the Prehistory section, we mentioned the terminology of 'Nan Man', namely, southern barbarians. The 'Man' designation is categorical. Chinese classics said the 'Man' barbarians were the descendants of Pan Hu. The Quanrong or Doggy Rong in northwestern China, i.e., ancestors of later Huns, were said to be descendants of Pan-hu, too.

The 'Man' people were not a group of passive people as they seemed. They had rebelled against the Chinese numerous times. They also expanded into Chinese territories frequently. In the valley of the Xiangjiang River, there was a major rebellion in AD 157, and rebellion was seen in the northern part of Changsha, Hunan Province. Disturbances were seen in Xiangjiang River basin and extended across the Nan Ling Mountains to the south. Rebellions were quelled in AD 164.

By the time of the Three Kingdoms, the 'Man' had migrated out of southwestern China and the Three Gorges areas. According to "History of The North Dynasties", the 'Man' people were scattered between the Yangtze River and the Huai River. They were seen as east as Shouchun of Anhui Province, as west as Sichuan Province, and as north as Henan Province. They were not a threat during Ts'ao Ts'ao Wei Dynasty of the Three Kingdoms time period. But they began to multiply by the end of Jinn Dynasty. As a result of devastation dealt by Hunnic Han & Zhao Dynasties, the central areas of China became vacant. Hence, the 'Man' people began to migrate northward.

In AD 386, Toba set up Wei Dynasty and controlled the areas around the Yellow River. In AD 423, a 'Man' king called Mei An led a column of a thousand people on a pilgrimage to Toba Wei's capital. They requested for their prince to be a hostage with Toba Wei. This 'Man' prince, Mei Bao, was later conferred the title of governor of Jiangzhou Prefecture and the Duke of Shunyang. Another 'Man' king, Wenwulong, surrendered to the Tobas and was conferred the title of governor of Southern Yongzhou Prefecture and Marquis of Luyang. One more 'Man' king, called 'Taiyang Man' or the sun 'Man', by the name of Heng Dan, surrendered his 80,000 households to the Toba, and they were located in the ancient Mian-Shui River areas (in today's Shaanxi-Hubei Provinces). Heng Dan was conferred the title of governor of Eastern Jingzhou Prefecture and King of Xiangyang. Heng Dan, however, was the son of ex-Jin general Heng Xuan (who had at one time deposed the Eastern Jinn emperor in an abortive rebellion). Heng Dan, still a boy, fled to the barbarians for asylum after Heng Xuan's failure in rebellion against Eastern Jinn Dynasty.

The 'Man' people were kind of sanwiched between Toba Wei and the southern dynasties of the Chinese. They rebelled against Toba Wei, and some fled to southern dynasties for protection. One group was relocated to Yangzhou Prefecture under Southern Liang Dynasty (AD 502-557). Li-ren barbarians, who supported Trung sisters in 1st century, were recorded to be active in Cangwu-Yuelin-Hepu-Ningpu-Gaoliang, and have rebelled against Yuelin [Guilin] and killed Xun Xiang the magistrate of Southern Liang Dynasty in AD 502.

When Toba Wei underwent Hunnic rebellions in the north, the 'Man' people around the Three Gorges and today's Hubei Province rebelled as well. In AD 566, Northern Zhou (AD 551-587) armies, under Lu Teng and Sima Yi, dealt the Three Gorges 'Man' a devastating defeat, and tens of thousands of skulls were piled up as a warning to the 'Man' people. "History of The North Dynasties" said that in AD 572, the 'Man' people stopped rebellion.


The 'Lao-ren' Barbarians

The 'Lao-ren' Barbarians would be alternative race of 'Nan Man', i.e., southern barbarians. They scattered in various parts of Sichuan Province as well as Hanzhong region. When Li Shi's Di[1] people took over Sichuan and overthrew Jinn Dynasty's ruling, the 'Lao-ren' people began to migrate out of their traditional Sichuan Prov lands of Baxi, Guanghan, Quchuan, Yang'an and Zizhong. Li Shi's Cheng Han Dynasty was commented to have perished as a result of external attacks and internal attacks, with the internal being from the 'Lao-ren' barbarians. The external attacks would be from Eastern Jinn Dynasty General Heng Wen. "History of Northern Dynasties" said that Heng Wen, after taking over Sichuan from Cheng Han Dynasty, failed to control the 'Lao-ren' people. Once the Sichuan people relocated eastward, the 'Lao-ren' people took over the vacated lands of Sichuan. Some of the 'Lao-ren' people co-habitated with the so-called 'Xia' people or Chinese. By the time of Southern Liang Dynasty, the 'Lao-ren' people would become sandwiched between Toba Wei Dynasty and Southern Liang Dynasty. The 'Lao-ren' people rebelled against Northern Zhou Dynasty frequently. Later, Tang Dynasty records continued to show that 'Lao-ren' people constantly staged rebellions against the Chinese.

The 'Lao-ren' people, together with 'Li-ren', 'Lang-ren', 'Yan-ren' and 'Wei-ren', had been categorically called Bai-yue People or Hundred Yue People. Scholar Wang Zhonghan stated that Lao-ren could mean the same as Luo character in ancient Luo-yue people, and would be equivalent to Lao character in Gelao-zu minority. Lao-ren originated from the land of ancient Ye-lang statelet [i.e., Zangke Commandary] and the intersection land of Xinggu-jun Commandary (i.e., between Zangke and Yizhou [Sichuan]), with a territory covering Yunnan-Guizhou provinces and joint areas of Hubei-Sichuan provinces. Over a dozen prefixed Lao-ren terms had appeared in ancient classics, with some in combination with Wuhu [Wuwu] barbarian, Li-ren barbarian, Dong barbarian, and Tu barbarian etc. Lao-ren barbarians were recorded to have copper metallergy but still adopted sacrificial ritual in striping human face skin to make 'ghosts'. Moreover, Lao-ren barbarians had a tradition of selling live persons in exchange for cattle and dogs.

Possibly mixed up with the 'Man' barbarians in section above, Lao-ren barbarians had a similar migration story: They began to dominate Sichuan Prov after General Heng Wen [i.e., son-in-law of Eastern Jinn Emperor Mingdi] sacked Sichuan Prov. By AD 514, living under newly established Bazhou prefecfture set up by Toba Wei Dynasty would be 200,000 households of "cooked Lao-ren households", not to mention the raw Loa-ren. In AD 556, Mulong-lao barbarian in Lingzhou [Renshou county of Sichuan] rebelled, and Western Toba Wei General Lu Teng killed and captured 150,000 of the rebels. (In AD 566, Northern Zhou (AD 551-587) armies, under Lu Teng and Sima Yi, dealt the Three Gorges 'Man' a devastating defeat, and tens of thousands of skulls were piled up as a warning to the 'Man' people.) In AD 562, Lu Teng defeated Tieshan-lao barbarian, killed and captured 4,000, and pacified 30000 households.


The 'Pu-ren' Barbarians

Ancestors of Pu people, at the time of Shang-Zhou transition, i.e., 1122 BC, lived to the south of Han-shui River, somewhere between Sichuan and Hubei provinces. "Shi Ji" recorded that Zhou King Wuwang, calling his troops by the name of 'people from the west', had included eight barbarian statelets as allies, including the Qiangs from today's Gansu, the Shu-Sou-Mao-Wei statelets in today's Sichuan Province, Lu and Peng from the northwest, and Yong and Pu south of the Han-shui River.

Cai Ah-dong stated that Benglong-zu (De'ang-zu), Bulang-zu and Wa-zu all belonged to ancient Pu people, and they are close to Khmer in language.


The Vietnamese

Vietnam was historically restricted to today's northern Vietnam and parts of China's Guangxi-Yunnan Provinces. The word 'viet' means the same as 'Yue', while 'nam' means southern. It was called Jiaozhi in Chinese history. It fell under Chinese influence beginning from Qin Empire. Zhao Tuo's Nan-Yue Statelet took Jiaozhi as a prefecture. Today's Vietnamese belonged to the same group as Jing-zu minority in China's Guangxi Prov. Vietnamese, the equivalent of Jing-zu minority in China's Guangxi Prov, certainly have their ancestry in southern China that we had explored above. Vietnamese, from the perspective of geography, should belong to the ancient Hundred Yue family.

During the early conquest, Qin mobilized an army of 100 to 200 thousand people, mostly consisting of the so-called outcasts of then China, i.e., the men who lived in wives' homes after the marriage and the merchants whose occupation was deemed the lowest in then society. History recorded that altogether 500,000 people, again consisting of the disgraced men and the merchants, were relocated to southern China by Qin Shihuangdi. This explains the fact that today's Guangdong Province still possesses the most variety of ancient Chinese dialects.

The people of Vietnam was an interesting group. They differ from Burmese and Thai people who were descendants of the Nan-Zhao refugees. They have a good mixture of Chinese and Austro heritage. The reason I said Vietnam was restricted to the northern part of today's Vietnam is that there existed many statelets in today's southern and central Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. Chinese history recorded that the people living to the south of Vietnamese, in both Linyi (Champa) and Funan, possessed curly hair, a Negroid characteristic that has more to do with Dravidians of India. "History of Northern Dynasties" mentioned that the people of Linyi possessed relatively deep-socket eyes and higher nose bridge, which further supported the previous claim that the ancient people of southern Vietnam were Indians. "History of Sui Dynasty" stated further that the people of Linyi (Champa) possessed dark skin and curly hair, and that after first Sui Emperor Yangdi conquered Southern Chen Dynasty in AD 589, Linyi sent in tributes. Linyi stopped tributes till Sui armies, led by General Liu Fang, attacked them in AD 604. (Sui Emperor, in addition to attacking Linyi, had invaded Ryukyu.) According to "History of Sui Dynasty", further to the southwest of Linyi (Champa) would be a statelet called Zhenla (Chang-la or Chenla), a vassal of Funan. Zhenla (Chang-la) male population were recorded to be small in size but dark in skin, but some females were said to have lighter skin. Chang-la people all had curly hair. To the west of Zhenla (Chang-la) would be a statelet called Zhu-jiang, and to the south Che-qu. Numerous statelets existed further, with rulers carrying Indian names. It is no strange to see this phenomenon when we examined the history of southeast Asia as a whole to find that Indian influence had spread across the whole area much before the Chinese poked their nose in the same area.

In 110s BC, General Lu Bode (carrying the same title of 'Quelling Sea Waves' as the later General Ma Yuan) was ordered by Han Emperor Wudi to campaign in the south, and he first set up Rinan Commandary. The Linyi (Champa) Statelet would be where the Xianglin County of Rinan Commandary was. At the beginning of Later Han, Ma Yuan campaigned against the rebellion led by the Zheng (or Trung) sisters in the region of the Red River between 40 and 43 AD. General Ma Yuan erected two bronze pillars here as a demarcation line of Han China's boundary. "History Of Liang Dynasty" said that in the demise years of Han Dynasty, a county clerk, by the name of Qu Da, killed the county sheriff of Xianglin and declared himself a king. After several generations, the throne passed on to a nephew called Fan Xiong. By AD 337, someone called Nuwen usurped the Linyi Kingdom throne. Nuwen was originally a servant under Fan Zhi the county sheriff of Xijuan County of Rinan Commandary. Governor-general of Jiaozhi Prefecture was in charge of Rinan Commandaries. But Nuwen and his son and grandson kept attacking Rinan Commandary for generations. Nuwen killed Xiahou Lan (the chief of Rinan Commandary) in AD 347 and stayed put in the capital of Rinan Commandary for 3 years.

Vietnam hence began as two states, a northern statelet called Annam (Nam Viet or Dai Viet) under Chinese influence and a southern one called Champa that displayed strong Indian influences. The southern Vietnamese kings are simlar to Cambodian kings, like in the names of Rudravarman etc.

Annam: Chinese records did not give any claim to native dynasties in Northern Vietnam. One alternative Vietnamese account treated Zhao Tuo, the king of Nan-yue statelet of Guangzhou (Canton), as the first emperor of Vietnam. As we mentioned earlier, the first record of dynastic nature in Vietnam would be attributed to Fan Xiong of Champa, in Central and Southern Vietnam, around 270 AD. In Northern Vietnam, there was the claim of Thuc Dynasty set up by An Duong during 257-207 BC. Zhao Tuo's Nan-Yue expanded into Northern Vietnam by this time. Zhao Tuo is also spelled as Chao Tuo or Trieu Da. Thereafter, there was the claim of Nan Viet's Chieu Dynasty, with rulers of following reign years: Vo Vuong (207-137 BC), Van Vuong (137-125 BC), Minh Vuong (125-113 BC), Ap Vuong (113-111 BC), Duong Vuong (111 BC). General Lu Bode of Han China would campaign against Southern and Central Vietnam after Han's conquest of Nan-Yue in 111 BC. Rinan Commandary was set up. General Ma Yuan quelled the rebellion led by the Zheng (or Trung) sisters between 40 and 43 AD. In the demise years of Han Dynasty, a county clerk, by the name of Qu Da, killed the county sheriff of Xianglin and declared himself a king. After several generations, the throne passed on to a nephew called Fan Xiong. By AD 337, someone called Nuwen usurped the throne of Linyi Kingdom (Champa). Nuwen killed Xiahou Lan (the chief of Rinan Commandary) in AD 347. Then, there was the Vietnamese claim of Li (Ly) Dynasty (111 BC - 544 AD), and thereafter Vietnames produced names of kings like Bon (544-548 AD), Kuang Phuc (548-571 AD), Thien Bao (549-555 AD), Phat Tu (571-603 AD). Chinese records showed that Sui and Tang had re-asserted control over Annam. By AD 603, Sui China re-conquered Northern Vietnam and attacked Champa in Central Vietnam. Another Vietnamese dynasty, Ngo Dynasty, would emerge at 939 AD. Tang Dynasty continued Sui policies, and it set up 'Du-hu Fu', i.e., the Protector-General Office of Annam. Tang China divided Ling-nam into two 'dao' units, and Annam was a part. China controlled Northern Vietnam for a short time period of 965-968. Song Dynasty conferred the title of King Jiaozhi-jun onto a person called Ding Buling of Dinh Dynasty (968-981). Ding Lian, the son of Ding Buling, assumed the same title of King of Jiaozhi Commandary. After another three generations, someone called Li Gongyun usurped the kingdom and was validated by Song China. Li family (i.e., Le Dynasty 981-1009) ruled for eight generations till it was usurped by someone. The son-in-law of this usurper would be King Tran Nhon-ton (Chen Ri-xuan). Rough timelines for the dynasties will be like: Ngo Dynasty 939-965, Dinh Dynasty 968-981, Le Dynasty 981-1009, Later Li 1010-1072, Latter Le 1072-1225, Tran Dynasty 1225-1400, Ho Dynasty 1400-1407. In between, the Mongol army, after conquering Dali in Yunnan, Shanshan statelet in Chinese Turkistan and Tibetan Plateau, would briefly invade Vietnam. Subetei's son was ordered to march to the southwest and he conquered various southwestern statelets and tribes such as Baiman, Wuman, Guiman, Luoluosi, A'bo and A'lu etc. Tonkin or Annam (northern Vietnam) was invaded. In 1257, Vietnamese king, by the name of Chen, fled to an island and Hanoi was sacked. Vietnamese king surrendered and Mongols left after a stay of nine days. In AD 1280s, Khubilai Khan, for sake of his wars with Champa, had few wars with Annam when Annam king refused to lend the path to the Mongols. After losing wars to Champa and Annam, Mongols later mounted futile overseas campaigns against Java.

Ming China controlled Northern Vietnam for a short time period of 1407-1428. Then came: Latter Le 1428-1527,

Mac Dynasty 1527-1533,

Nguyen Dynasty 1533-1802-1883.

France, whose priests were killed in the struggle with Tibetan lamaists in Tibet from 1845 to 1861, mounted invasions against Vietnam and Guangxi-Yunnan provinces of southwestern China since the 1860s-70s. From 1858 to 1862, France obtained the control of Southern Vietnam from the Nguyen Dynasty. In AD 1873, French expeditionary force attacked Hanoi of Vietnam. Vietnamese King requested for relief with "hei qi jun" [i.e., "seven star black flag" army] led by a Chinese rebel called Liu Yongfu. The "black flag army" originated from the Wu Lingyun & Wu Yazhong Zhuang-zu minority rebellion in Xinning prefecture of Guangxi Province, consisting of people from Shangsi, Ningming, Chongzuo, Jingxi, Mubian and Qinzhou. It was part of uprisings conducted by "Tian [heaven] Di [earth] Hui [society]" to echo the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom Rebellion. While seeking asylum inside of Vietnam, Liu Yongfu got the opportunity to fight for Vietnam and China. In Dec of 1873, The "black flag army", about 1000 strong, after trekking through the mountains, suddenly descended upon the outskirts of Hanoi, defeated the French to the west of Hanoi, and expelled them out of the Red River Delta. French lost about 200 soldiers, including commander by the name of An-ye. Vietnamese King conferred the title of 'deputy general" onto Liu Yongfu. In 1875, "black flag army" continued to engage the French around Hanoi, Nanding and Zhiqiao area.

In AD 1882, France attacked Hanoi and northern Vietnam again. French took over Hanoi and Nanding. Vietnamese King called for help with "black flag army" again. In Tianjin, Li Hongzhang held a talk with French minister-envoy Bao-hai and agreed to wthdraw Chinese forces from Sino-Vietnamese border. France then asked its minister-envoy to Japan, Te-li-gu, to have a meeting with Li Hongzhang in Shanghai for another revision of agreements in regards to Vietnam. The next year, 1883, French launched a campaign against the area to the north of Hanoi. At the request of Vietnamese King, Liu Yongfu led his "black flag army" down the Red River. On May 19th 1883, at the western outskirts of Hanoi, "black flag a

[Lin Duanwen]

临高话属于壮侗语族无可怀疑。奇怪的是，临高人却一直自称为汉人。
Maybe Lingao people in Hainan Island are sinicized Zhuang since Lingao language is similar to Zhuang language.

[TrueViet]

Yue is pronounced in Chinese language referring to the ancient Chinese people in the south China .
Viet is pronounced in Vietnamese language referring to mordern Vietnamese people in Vietnam.

ZhaoTuo did not marry a Viet girl. He married a Yue woman. Actually he married a Cantonese woman.

Appearantloy qlittlemon reads without understanding, for he thought that I have been talking
about ties between Han and Viet, and inheritance. Whoever is talking about these is not me.
He cannot find any quotes in this forum to support his assumtion.

My brothers sisters, myself, and my children have curly hair.

[xng]

TrueViet, on Apr 18 2006, 06:24 PM, said:

Yue is pronounced in Chinese language referring to the ancient Chinese people in the south China .
Viet is pronounced in Vietnamese language referring to mordern Vietnamese people in Vietnam.

Yue is the mandarin pronounciation of the vietnamese pronounciation of viet ie. same character. It encompasses many ethnic groups.

Thanks for clarifying that he married a cantonese yue instead of a vietnamese yue. It is more specific.

This post has been edited by xng: 19 April 2006 - 12:00 AM

[DearCoolZ]

xng, on Apr 18 2006, 10:59 PM, said:

Yue is the mandarin pronounciation of the vietnamese pronounciation of viet ie. same character. It encompasses many ethnic groups.

Thanks for clarifying that he married a cantonese yue instead of a vietnamese yue. It is more specific.

the cantonese yue is different from the vietnamese yue just like how the chinese han is different from the korean han.

This post has been edited by DearCoolZ: 19 April 2006 - 12:57 AM

[qrasy]

Lin Duanwen, on Apr 19 2006, 07:05 AM, said:

临高话属于壮侗语族无可怀疑。奇怪的是，临高人却一直自称为汉人。
Maybe Lingao people in Hainan Island are sinicized Zhuang since Lingao language is similar to Zhuang language.

"No doubt that the LinGao language belongs to Zhuang-Dong (Daic) languages. The strange thing is, LinGao people always call themselves Han people".
They are either Sinicized not very deeply, or simply Chinese migrants who dropped their languages when they settle in other people's area.

qlittlelemon, on Apr 19 2006, 07:33 AM, said:

My fair assessment based on available documented Chinese texts and visible clues,Sinicization or full integration of ancient Bai Yue,Xiongnu,Xian Bei,Tungusic-Manchu clans IS the remaining populations speak louder than any mumbo jumbo " fictitious theory ".

Come from obscure sources?

Quote

Xiongnu descendants identified as a Chinese minority ethnicity = none

Xiongnu descendants probably already subjugated by the Xianbei.

Quote

Xien Bei = nearly completely obsorbed into the generic Han Chinese race,except a pocket of proclaimed XB descendants in Xingjian region.

Nope. Xibe are also found in Northeast. There are also Tungusic speakers around there (that should be Xianbei's descendants), for example Hezhe, Elunchun, .... (may be too small community, though)

Quote

Let's not overly-emphasize on " romance " between Han Chinese men and native women of those ancient days as it contradicts actual Vietnam historical events with celebrated native heroines fought many fierce battles with invading Chinese imperial army.Didn't I just read some posts on another thread,the " Trung sisters " rode elephants combat imperial Chinese army.

Racial stereotypes work here

TrueViet, on Apr 19 2006, 08:24 AM, said:

Yue is pronounced in Chinese language referring to the ancient Chinese people in the south China .
Viet is pronounced in Vietnamese language referring to mordern Vietnamese people in Vietnam.

Yue also used for Vietnam -> Yue Nan 越南
As for Viet for BachViet 百越/百粵.

Quote

My brothers sisters, myself, and my children have curly hair.

How curly is it?

Quote

ZhaoTuo did not marry a Viet girl. He married a Yue woman. Actually he married a Cantonese woman.

xng, on Apr 19 2006, 12:59 PM, said:

Thanks for clarifying that he married a cantonese yue instead of a vietnamese yue. It is more specific.

The "Yue" here does not refer to the same people as Cantonese Yue. Remember that the "Cantonese Hua" got their "Cantonese/Yue" name rather recently *because of their geographical location*.
Anyway, I really doubt so much about this "ZhaoTuo married Yue woman", because it's like playing with statistics, like saying *most probably*. (yeah, an analogy is that I am in Hong Kong so that you could argue I will fall in love with HKer... )
But then, I could argue that he could have brought a wife from the North... Or was he always a bachelor until after the Qin dynasty fell?

DearCoolZ, on Apr 19 2006, 01:56 PM, said:

the cantonese yue is different from the vietnamese yue just like how the chinese han is different from the korean han.

No. Korean Han and Chinese Han is different in tone (and voicing of initial consonant in Middle Chinese) whereas Cantonese Yue and Vietnamese Yue is read the same because of historical factor.

[TrueViet]

qrasy, on Apr 19 2006, 04:13 AM, said:

How curly is it?

Anyway, I really doubt so much about this "ZhaoTuo married Yue woman"

From cure to cure, the pitch is 2 inches when the hair is short,
4 inches when the hair is long touching the shoulder.

I also doubt whether "ZhaoTuo married Yue woman."
I only meant that if ZhaoTuo did marry a Yue, he did not marry an ancient Vietnamese.

[nguoiVietchanhtong]

I think his son, Trong Thuy, married My Chau (Au Lac Viet at Red River delta). During that Nan Yue dynasty, Cantonese and Vietnamese were in the same country. After the Vietnamese got independence, the only Yue left was the Cantonese that belonged to the Chinese, that was how it got regional name, the Cantonese Yue as Chinese Yue.

Viet, in Mandarin, is pronounced as Yue, but in Cantonese Yuit (Duyt in Vietamese) and in south Vietnamese (Diet).

I guess the Quang Nam Vietnamese pronounciation is close to the Cantonese tonality.

[MC420]

qlittlelemon, on Apr 19 2006, 11:14 AM, said:

A salad bowl of mumbo jumbo.
Another laughable desperate " dubious theory " for our amusement.We rather respect factual history,ancient Nan Yue natives were Zhuang and Yao plus others " not related " to natives of Vietnam.

Regarding word salad, you need to check your own writing which reflect your frame of thought as well! Per real history, ancient Nan Yueh under Zhao Tuo's rule was definetely including the Lac Viet (Lou Yueh) people; however, Zhao Tuo didn't impose the northern value upon the local people like Ma Yuan did afterward!

qlittlelemon, on Apr 19 2006, 11:14 AM, said:

Ancient ethnic Viets of northern Vietnam and Guangxi were genetically and culturally related to ancestors of Thais and Laoatians,there are obvious similiarities among these these closest SE Asians.ancient Viets rode elephants in combat,same as fellow kins Thais and Laotians in those old days.

You're correct regarding the relationship among the Viet people in respect to other people in the region, including the Han Chinese (it depends on how far we would go back to make the connection) whereas it's based on legends (oral history) or genetic research; Most of the Viet people would treat other ethnics as "brothers & sisters", of course with respect as well except for those few who adopt the "chauvinistic" attitude <-- unfortunately it happens in any group of people!

Quote

Vietnamese and Cantonese are two different ethnic groups and nationalities,Cantonese was never a country name.

Yeah, your're right again, Cantonese and Viet are different ethic groups but nobody would claim Cantonese as a country either; perhaps anything related, Canton <-- is a recent name for one of China's provinces.


Vietnamese and Cantonese are two different ethnic groups and nationalities,Cantonese was never a country name.

[qrasy]

TrueViet, on Apr 19 2006, 06:43 PM, said:

I also doubt whether "ZhaoTuo married Yue woman."
I only meant that if ZhaoTuo did marry a Yue, he did not marry an ancient Vietnamese.

It's still very dubious. A grand bachelor general of Qin dynasty? Was he that young that he had not married? (I don't think generals are that poor)
Anyway, by "probability" alone (no certainty): he probably took concubines from local population.

nguoiVietchanhtong, on Apr 19 2006, 10:56 PM, said:

I think his son, Trong Thuy, married My Chau (Au Lac Viet at Red River delta).

Is it recorded or..? fabricated? (anyway, too little Northern immigrant at his young age)

Quote

After the Vietnamese got independence, the only Yue left was the Cantonese that belonged to the Chinese, that was how it got regional name, the Cantonese Yue as Chinese Yue.

I had a discussion deep buried among there... Cantonese was called so because of geographical location of where they live... Do you know that the terms "Min", "Wu", "Xiang", "Gan" are now applied to languages (and supposedly, adjective relating to the people), and all because of the geographical location.
The "Min" and "Yue" were ancient groups of people, yet their names are used for geographical locations (compare: states of America like Texas, Massachusets, Arkansas, ... ) and later when Han Chinese dominated there they are titled by the geograpical locations.
There is no people calling themselves Min, but there are people calling themselves (a variant of) "Yue". This is definitely causing confusion.
When you say "Texan"... are you referring to "White" modern majority living in Texas or the Native American tribe there?
Anyway, you can't blame others for having the same name as you... blame the namer if it's justificable .

Quote

Viet, in Mandarin, is pronounced as Yue, but in Cantonese Yuit (Duyt in Vietamese) and in south Vietnamese (Diet).

All seems mispronunciation. I'm not sure how you will pronounce the "uy".
And I think D is more like Z in the "more standard" pronunciation... (otherwise you have serious ambiguity with Y)

Quote

I guess the Quang Nam Vietnamese pronounciation is close to the Cantonese tonality.

How do you compare different tonalities?

qlittlelemon, on Apr 20 2006, 12:14 AM, said:

Another laughable desperate " dubious theory " for our amusement.We rather respect factual history,ancient Nan Yue natives were Zhuang and Yao plus others " not related " to natives of Vietnam.

Are modern Vietnamese descendants of the natives of Vietnam in Han age?
Well, anyway do you know Ou and Luo past groups in South China? Their combined forces are called "Au Lac" and Vietnamese claim them as ancestor... Just like you claiming Huaxia as ancestor.
and there are traces of Vietnamese-like languages in South China... But I just wonder how they disappear and just left a few words across Han Chinese and the minorities..

Quote

Ancient ethnic Viets of northern Vietnam and Guangxi were genetically and culturally related to ancestors of Thais and Laoatians,there are obvious similiarities among these these closest SE Asians.

You are indirectly saying taht Zhuang and Thai/Lao are far, while in fact Laotians and Thais are related *closely* to Zhuang by language (all Daic).

Quote

ancient Viets rode elephants in combat,same as fellow kins Thais and Laotians in those old days.

Special commodity of area. Unrelated people may use the same things.
Don't say you don't eat local food and only eat Hakka food.

MC420, on Apr 20 2006, 12:43 AM, said:

Most of the Viet people would treat other ethnics as "brothers & sisters", of course with respect as well except for those few who adopt the "chauvinistic" attitude <-- unfortunately it happens in any group of people!

Racism against overseas Chinese are quite strong in many countries: guess what.