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[Yun]

This was originally written as a post for the TK Read-along thread, but it turned out too long and I have made it a topic on its own.

The novel (Romance of the Three Kingdoms) actually gets many things wrong about the background of Gongsun Zan, and how the war between Yuan Shao and Gongsun Zan started. It also leaves out a very important character - Liu Yu.

1. Contrary to the novel, Gongsun Zan was never Prefect of Beiping. He was earlier a magistrate of Zhuo county (Liu Bei's hometown), and was appointed as a cavalry captain to suppress the rebellion of the Wuhuan people in 187-188. The Wuhuan were allied with two renegade Han officials: Zhang Chun and Zhang Ju. Zhang Chun was a former prefect of Zhongshan who now bore a grudge against the government for having turned down his request to be the officer leading 3,000 Wuhuan cavalry to suppress the rebellion in Liangzhou. Gongsun Zan got the assignment instead. But the Wuhuan mutinied not long after setting out, because the government was not giving them enough supplies. Zhang Chun then joined them. Zhang Ju was from the same prefecture as Zhang Chun (Yuyang prefecture, now in tthe Beijing city area), and had earlier been prefect of Taishan.

Zhang Ju proclaimed himself emperor, and Zhang Chun proclaimed himself General Mending the Broken Heavens and Prince of Anding. The Wuhuan rebels allied with them grew to over 100,000. In 188, Gongsun Zan defeated Zhang Chun in a battle in 188, but pursued his retreating forces too far and got surrounded by the Wuhuan. After fighting it out in a fort for two days, his army was routed, with losses of 50-60%. In 189, the new governor of Youzhou, Liu Yu, arrived to take office. Liu was a member of the Han imperial clan, and a very virtuous man. His prestige was so great that the Wuhuan agreed to surrender to him. Zhang Ju and Zhang Chun had to flee into the steppe; soon after, one of Zhang Chun's retainers murdered him and sent the head to Liu Yu.

The rebellion of the Wuhuan and the two Zhangs does not appear at all in the novel, and neither does Liu Yu. Liu Yu was actually quite a prominent figure in the campaign against Dong Zhuo - I will explain why later. For now, Liu Yu and Gongsun Zan never got along from the start because Gongsun Zan was resolved to wipe out the Wuhuan (probably as revenge for their having defeated his army in 188), but Liu Yu wanted to win them over peacefully. Gongsun Zan was, however, allowed to garrison Eastern Beiping prefecture with 10,000 troops, holding the rank of Captain over Surrendered Enemies (note: NOT prefect).

2. In 190, Dong Zhuo forced the Han court to withdraw from Luoyang to Chang'an because of the imminent attack by the anti-Dong coalition. Liu Yu's son Liu He was a Counsellor in the Han court, and the Han emperor sent him east on a secret mission to ask Liu Yu to send troops to defeat Dong Zhuo and bring the court back to Luoyang. Liu He reached Nanyang prefecture, which was Yuan Shu's base of operations. Yuan Shu wanted to manipulate Liu Yu into helping him against the other members of the coalition, so he detained Liu He and promised to send troops west against Dong Zhuo. He then got Liu He to write a letter asking Liu Yu for an armed escort back to Youzhou. Liu Yu received the letter and sent several thousand cavalry to fetch Liu He back to Youzhou. Gongsun Zan knew that Yuan Shu had personal ambitions, and tried to dissuade Liu Yu from sending his troops, but to no avail.

Gongsun Zan then feared that Yuan Shu would find out about his objections and bear a grudge against him, so he changed tack and sent his cousin Gongsun Yue (in the novel, Yue is a younger brother) with 1,000 cavalry to aid Yuan Shu. He also instructed Gongsun Yue to secretly urge Yuan Shu to imprison Liu He and absorb the Youzhou troops sent by Liu Yu. Before long, Liu He escaped from Yuan Shu, but when passing through Jizhou he got detained by Yuan Shao again.

3. In 191, the anti-Dong coalition considered installing its own emperor, because Liu Xie was young and weak and under Dong Zhuo's control in Chang'an. Liu Yu was an obvious candidate, being both highly respected and a member of the imperial clan - however he was still up north in Youzhou, having stayed out of the coalition. Cao Cao protested that Liu Xie had done nothing wrong, and trying to choose their own emperor would damage the legitimacy of the coalition. But Jizhou Governor Han Fu and his subordinate Bohai Prefect Yuan Shao spread rumours that Liu Xie was not really a son of Emperor Ling, and argued strongly for replacing him with Liu Yu. Han Fu had earlier been sitting on the fence regarding whether to oppose Dong Zhuo or not, but when advised by his counsellor to follow the majority of the provinces, he threw in his lot with the coalition and joined forces with Yuan Shao. Yuan Shao was nominally the leader of the coalition, but he recognized that having Liu Yu as a figurehead would strengthen his own authority too.

Yuan Shu, having imperial ambitions of his own, protested vehemently against making Liu Yu emperor, on the hypocritical grounds of loyalty and justice towards Liu Xie. But Yuan Shao and Han Fu went ahead anyway, and sent a letter to Liu Yu inviting him to ascend the throne. Liu Yu berated them as disloyal men. They tried again to get Liu Yu to take up the position of "Chief of the Secretariat", appointing officials on behalf of the emperor. Liu Yu then threatened to flee to the Southern Xiongnu if they didn't stop asking him. Only then did Yuan Shao and Han Fu stop.

In the novel, none of this takes place. Yuan Shao and the other members never think of getting another emperor to replace Dong Zhuo's puppet, let alone insisting that Liu Xie was not really a son of the late Emperor Ling.

4. The warlords began turning on each other. Han Fu attacked Gongsun Zan and was defeated at Anping. Gongsun then invaded Jizhou on the pretext of campaigning against Dong Zhuo. [The Yingxiong Ji, cited in the Pei commentary, contains the story followed by the novel: Feng Ji advises Yuan Shao to invite Gongsun to invade Jizhou, so that Han Fu will hand the whole of Jizhou over to Yuan.] Yuan Shao sends Gao Gan and Xun Chen to persuade Han to let him take over Jizhou so as to protect it from Gongsun Zan. In history, Geng Wu and Min Chun (he becomes Guan Chun in the novel) do protest against this, but they do not make the futile last stand at the city gate that the novel describes. Yuan Shao simply executes them after taking over Jizhou.

Han Fu let Yuan replace him as Governor of Jizhou. But rather than flee straight away, as in the novel, he stayed on for a while until he feared that Yuan would harm him. The Yingxiong Ji says that Han Fu was persecuted by Yuan Shao's offical Zhu Han, who had formerly been treated badly when serving under Han. Zhu knew that Yuan wanted Han out of the way anyway. So he sent troops to surround Han Fu's residence with drawn swords. Han fled into his tower, but the troops caught his eldest son and broke both his legs. Yuan Shao arrested Zhu Han an executed him for this, but Han Fu was terrified and asked Yuan to let him leave. Yuan consented, and Han went to take refuge with Zhang Miao. Later on, Yuan sent an envoy to Zhang Miao who whispered something in Zhang's ear. Han saw this and suspected it was a request to kill him, so he got up, went out and committed suicide in the toilet.

5. At this time Yuan Shao and Yuan Shu were already at loggerheads (unlike in the novel, where they are still on good terms until Yuan Shao turns down Yuan Shu's request for horses after the Battle of Jieqiao in 192). When Yuan Shu sent Sun Jian to attack Dong Zhuo, Yuan Shao sent Zhou Mao to raid Sun Jian's home base at Yangcheng. Sun Jian was greatly saddened by this, and remarked, "We all raised our armies to serve a righteous cause and save the empire [never mind that Sun callously killed off two senior Han officials on his way north to serve the cause]. Dong Zhuo is about to be destroyed, yet we are already fighting among ourselves. Who then should I serve but myself?" He led his troops back from Luoyang (which he had already captured) and defeated Zhou Mao. Yuan Shu sent Gongsun Yue to aid Sun Jian in the battle against Zhou Mao, and Yue was killed by a stray arrow. Gongsun Zan was enraged and blamed Yuan Shao for the death of his cousin (whom he considered as a younger brother), since Zhou Mao was acting on Yuan Shao's orders.

This is totally different from the story in the novel - there, Gongsun Yue is ambushed and killed when Gongsun Zan sends him to ask Yuan Shao for half of Jizhou following the success of the plot against Han Fu.

Gongsun Zan led his troops to the Pan River and wrote a memorial to the imperial court (then in Chang'an), accusing Yuan Shao of numerous crimes. Gongsun invaded Jizhou, and most of the counties in the province defected to him. Yuan was terrified and offered to make Gongsun Zan's cousin Gongsun Fan the prefect of Bohai (Yuan's own former post), as a way to seek a truce. Gongsun Fan simply took the post and then turned against Yuan too. Gongsun Zan appointed his general Yan Gang as Governor of Jizhou, to make clear his intention to replace Yuan Shao.

6. The Battle of Jieqiao in 192 has been reconstructed in one of our other threads: http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=2819

The novel's account of the battle is largely based on the Yingxiong Ji. But there are some incongruities in the novel's account -
a) the mention of a fireworks signal for the crossbowmen - these had not been invented yet.
b ) the mention that Gongsun Zan had once fought the Qiang, and they feared white horses. These should be the Wuhuan, and not the Qiang. However, Yuan Shao's general Qu Yi, who plays the central role in this battle, did have extensive experience fighting the Qiang in Liangzhou.
c) the use of Wen Chou and Yan Liang in leading the crossbowmen in Yuan Shao's vanguard - their part in the battle is actually unknown
d) Zhao Yun being present at all. He did not defect to Gongsun at this time - in fact he had always served Gongsun and never served Yuan - and he certainly did not save the day by killing Qu Yi. Gongsun Zan is actually saved by Yuan Shao's own carelessness in bringing only a small force with him across the bridge to Gongsun's camp. Yuan is surrounded by 2,000 of Gongsun's cavalry, and almost loses his life, but Qu Yi turns back and drives Gongsun's troops away.
e) Yan Gang being cut down by Qu Yi himself - the Yingxiong Ji only mentions that Yan was killed in the crossbow volley, while Gongsun Zan's SGZ bio says that Yan was captured alive.
f) Dong Zhuo brokering a truce between a stalemated Yuan and Gongsun - actually, Gongsun retreated to Bohai straightaway and then returned to Youzhou with Gongsun Fan. Yuan Shao also had to withdraw because the Heishan rebels - a remnant of the Yellow Turbans - attacked Wei prefecture and captured the city of Ye, with the help of mutinous soldiers there. Ye was the capital of both Wei prefecture and Jizhou province itself, and Yuan hurried back to defeat the rebels and recapture Ye.
g) Liu Bei being present at this battle - there is no record of him being involved, but soon after this he was serving in Qingzhou under Gongsun's Governor there, Tian Kai. Qingzhou is on the Shandong peninsula, and Gongsun Zan (according to the Hou Hanshu) defeated an invading Yuan army at the Juma River sometime after Jieqiao, and then led 30,000 men on a counterattack south into Jizhou, as far as Pingyuan. From there, Tian Kai marched into Qingzhou and occupied it, opening up a second front against Yuan Shao. From 192 to 193, Yuan Shao's troops fought against Tian Kai's troops in Qingzhou, exhausting both sides and devastating the province. In this conflict, Liu Bei garrisoned Pingyuan and was a commander of a unit of Wuhuan cavalry from Youzhou. When Cao Cao later attacked Tao Qian at Xuzhou, Tian Kai and Liu Bei went to reinforce Tao, but Liu ended up defecting to Tao because the latter gave him 4,000 more soldiers.

7. While Gongsun Zan made a truce and even a marriage alliance with Yuan Shao in 193, he also became increasingly hostile towards Liu Yu. Liu was offficially still his superior as Governor of Youzhou, but Liu did not support Gongsun's war with Yuan and had reduced the amount of supplies available to him. Both men continuously wrote to the imperial court in Chang'an, complaining about each other. Of course, the court had enough problems of its own and did not bother with theirs.

In the winter of 193, Liu Yu concluded that Gongsun was bound to rebel against him eventually, and launched an attack on Gongsun with 100,000 troops. But Liu had not trained his troops well, and they were ill-disciplined. Out of fear for the lives and property of the people, Liu also ordered his men not to burn any houses, and to avoid killing anyone other than Gongsun Zan himself. This limited the troops' options, and Gongsun was able to break out with several hundred elite troops using fire. Liu Yu's army collapsed, and he fled to the nearby town of Juyong. Gongsun captured him and his family after a siege of three days, and kept him as a hostage.

Sometime later, an emmissary from Chang'an arrived with promotions for both Liu Yu and Gongsun Zan. Gongsun seized this chance to report to the emmissary that Liu Yu had once plotted with Yuan Shao to make himself emperor - this is one of history's many tragic ironies, since Liu Yu had steadfastly refused Yuan's offer. The emmissary then had Liu Yu and his family beheaded. Before the execution, according to the Dianlue in the Pei commentary, Gongsun Zan made a cruel joke by exposing Liu in the hot sun and declaring, "If he is meant to be emperor, let the heavens send rain down, and I will then spare him!" But it was the height of summer and no rain fell for the whole day. Only then was Liu killed. The people of Youzhou mourned Liu Yu deeply, because he had been compassionate and benevolent towards them.

8. Gongsun Zan's betrayal of Liu Yu would come back to haunt him. He ruled Youzhou like a tyrant, oppressing the people and persecuting the elite families out of paranoia. He was both arrogant and insecure - even a person who stared at him would face harsh punishment. According to the Yingxiong Ji, he also became sworn brothers with three disreputable characters: the fortune-teller Liu Weitai, the cloth seller Li Yizi, and the merchant Yue Hedang. These men became extremely rich through their association with Gongsun, especially because their daughters married his sons. Resentment against them was very strong among the people.

In 195, Liu Yu's former official Xianyu Fu gathered ex-soldiers from Liu's disbanded Youzhou units and rebelled to avenge their master. They were joined by the charismatic Yan Rou, who gathered several tens of thousands of Wuhuan and Xianbei into the rebel army. 7,000 Wuhuan and Xianbei cavalry headed south to receive Liu Yu's son Liu He (who was still in Yuan Shao's custody). Yuan freed Liu He and also dispatched Qu Yi with 100,000 men to aid the rebels against Gongsun Zan. At the Baoqiu River, the rebels defeated Gongsun Zan and killed 200,000 of his men. Numerous prefectures in Youzhou defected to the rebels and killed off the officials Gongsun had appointed.

Before this, Gongsun Zan had built a new capital called Yijing - an incredible fortress in which his generals all lived in high towers on the tops of large mounds, numbering in the thousands. The city was ringed by 10 moats, and Gongsun Zan's own tower was in the centre. It was the tallest tower of all, with an iron door and a huge grain supply inside. Gongsun lived in the tower with his concubines, and no one was allowed to enter - all messages to him had to be tied to a rope which would be pulled up by a concubine. Gongsun now decided to shut himself off from the outside world, since he knew he could not suppress the rebellion. He was confident that as the military manuals cautioned against attacking high towers, he would be safe from attack and could live on the grain in the tower until the entire civil war was over and peace was restored. He let his troops outside Yijing fend for themselves, thinking that this would motivate them to fight harder. The actual result was that most of them killed their own generals and surrendered, while the rest were defeated easily. Yuan Shao's army finally reached the gates of Yijing itself.

The city did withstand all attacks by Yuan Shao's troops for several years, but in 198, Gongsun Zan decided to send his son Gongsun Xu to seek help from the Heishan rebels in the Taihang Mountains. The plan was to recruit these rebels to strike into Jizhou, cutting off Yuan Shao's line of retreat and forcing him to give up the siege of Yijing. The plan worked at first, but slightly differently from the original. In 199, the Heishan leader Zhang Yan marched with Gongsun Xu and 100,000 men to relieve Yijing - not to attack Jizhou. Gongsun Zan sent a message to Gongsun Xu to tell him to lay an ambush with 5,000 elite cavalry on low ground north of the city. They were to light torches as a signal, upon which Gongsun Zan would lead his troops to sally out of Yijing. However, the messenger was captured by Yuan Shao's patrols. He sent his own men to lay the ambush and light the signal torches, and when Gongsun Zan sallied out, he was roundly defeated and fled back into the city.

Yuan Shao's troops next dug a tunnel under the city, first supporting them with wooden beams and then setting fire to the beams once the tunnel reached the centre of the city. The tunnel collapsed right under Gongsun Zan's tower, causing it to start collapsing too. Gongsun Zan saw that his defeat was near, and killed his family before committing suicide. [The Hou Hanshu states that he strangled his sisters, wife, concubines, and children, and then set the room on fire to burn himself, but Yuan Shao's troops charged in and killed him. Also that Tian Kai died in the fighting at Yijing, and Gongsun Xu was later killed by the Tu'ge tribe of the Xiongnu.]

The novel focuses on Cao Cao, Liu Bei and Lu Bu up to 200 (when Yuan Shao and Cao Cao finally fight it out at Guandu), and so ignores the entire Gongsun-Yuan war after Jieqiao. There is no more than a brief mention of Gongsun Zan's defeat and death at Yijing in Chapter 28, when the wandering Zhao Yun rejoins Liu Bei. In fact, Zhao Yun had already joined Liu Bei when they were both in Tian Kai's army in Qingzhou - Zhao was Liu's chief cavalry commander - i.e. commanding the Wuhuan cavalry. The novel does hint at this in Chapter 11, where Liu Bei 'borrows' Zhao Yun and 2,000 troops to help Tao Qian as a personal favour to Kong Rong of Beihai. But in the same chapter, Liu Bei has to let Zhao Yun return to Gongsun Zan after Cao Cao's army withdraws from Xuzhou. This is entirely fictional (Zhao Yun never left Liu Bei, he stayed on in Xuzhou), as is the novel's identification of Tian Kai as an independent force who happens to also be willing to help Tao Qian - rather than Liu Bei's immediate superior in the Qingzhou campaign against Yuan Shao. Indeed, Liu Bei's participation in the Qingzhou campaign is completely obscured in the novel, which would mislead readers into believing he was just a magistrate in Pingyuan minding his own business until Kong Rong asked him for aid and Tao Qian offered him an entire province. Liu was a magistrate (and then a prefect) in Pingyuan, but he was doing a lot of fighting in the early 190s, against Yuan Shao's forces in Qingzhou.

[Yun]

So, to summarise the main points:

1. Gongsun Zan rose to prominence as a general through suppressing the Wuhuan rebellion, and became rivals with his governor Liu Yu. But he was never Prefect of Beiping.

2. Liu Yu was invited by Yuan Shao and Han Fu to be emperor, but refused. Gongsun Zan later executed him after a violent confrontation, and falsely claimed that he had wanted to be emperor.

3. Gongsun Zan's war with Yuan Shao started over Yuan's attack on Sun Jian during the campaign against Dong Zhuo, and not over Yuan's taking over Jizhou from Han Fu. Gongsun Yue's death was a major factor, but Gongsun Yue was not killed in Jizhou. He was killed while aiding Sun Jian against Yuan Shao's forces at Yangcheng.

4. Zhao Yun and Liu Bei were probably not at the Battle of Jieqiao. They certainly played no known part in it. But they were both involved in Gongsun Zan's subsequent invasion of Qingzhou. Zhao was not a former Yuan officer who defected to Gongsun.

5. Tian Kai and Liu Bei entered Xuzhou to support Tao Qian under the same Gongsun army - not separately. Liu at Pingyuan was a direct subordinate of Tian in Qingzhou. Zhao Yun entered as Liu's officer, not 'borrowed' temporarily from Gongsun Zan. Liu Bei switched sides and became Tao Qian's general before the dying Tao decided to hand the province over to him.

6. Zhao Yun was constantly in Liu Bei's army from the Qingzhou campaign onwards.

7. Gongsun Zan was only defeated by Yuan Shao after a long siege of his capital, but he had already destroyed himself through misrule, arrogance, and complacency.

8. There were two Gongsun-Yuan wars, with a truce in between: the first in 192-193, and the second in 195-199.

[King Piankhy]

Since nobody seemed to give you any credit I figured I'd be the first to say thanks for info. I defintely didn't know that much about Liu Yu and Gongsun Zan. Zan used to be one of my favorites. And the novel made it seem like Liu Yu was a nobody.

[Yun]

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But in the same chapter, Liu Bei has to let Zhao Yun return to Gongsun Zan after Cao Cao's army withdraws from Xuzhou. This is entirely fictional (Zhao Yun never left Liu Bei, he stayed on in Xuzhou)

I've looked closer at the SGZ and found this statement to be possibly incorrect. According to the Yun Biezhuan, quoted in Pei's commentary, Zhao Yun left Gongsun Zan's army around 193, before Liu Bei switched over to Tao Qian's side. The reason was that Zhao's elder brother had just died and he had to go back to Changshan to attend the funeral. Zhao and Liu Bei were both in Qingzhou at this time. Apparently, Liu knew that Zhao would not return, and held Zhao's hands tightly when he was about to leave. Zhao then said, "I will not forget your kindness to me."

In 200, when Liu Bei had taken refuge with Yuan Shao, Zhao Yun appeared at Ye (Yuan Shao's capital) and came to offer his services to Liu Bei. Liu sent him to gather several hundred troops behind Yuan's back, revealing only that these were troops for Liu Bei. Probably this was because Zhao had previously served Yuan's arch-enemy Gongsun Zan (although Liu had done the same), and Liu feared that Yuan would suspect Zhao of plotting to avenge Gongsun Zan.

In 201, when Liu Bei went south to join Liu Biao's army, Zhao Yun went with him.

What Zhao Yun was doing from 193 to 200 (other than attending his brother's funeral) is not known.

[karewa]

nice... What book is it again ? Does it has a english translated one ???

Isnt it amazing to see the most ancient and old school glorified gangsters ??

[Yun]

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What book is it again ?

You mean the Yun Biezhuan? It's a narrative of Zhao Yun's life, now lost and preserved only partially as quotations in Pei Songzhi's 5th-century commentary on the Sanguo Zhi.

[James]

Its amazing how the novel makes most people associated with Liu Bei look like great people. gongsun Zan, Tao Qian just to name a few.

[Yun]

Ma Chao is another example. He caused the deaths of his father, brothers, and entire clan (who were hostages in Xu and Ye), by rebelling out of what is at best a reaction of paranoia over the imminent campaign against Zhang Lu. He even allied with Han Sui, the man who had once turned against Ma Teng and killed his wife and children.

The novel changes this such that Ma Teng was lured into the capital to be killed, and Ma Chao was simply rebelling to avenge his father.

[Liu Bei228]

First, James are you saying lIu Bei was made to look godd when he wasn't as good or he was bad?

Second, in all fairnest to Ma Chao it wasn't his discussion only, the other rulers also thought Cao Cao was going to attack and maybe Ma Chao had no choice in matter but, to go with them.

[James]

Well almost everything in the novel sort of made him look good. Also with Ma Chao his father Ma Teng was Cao Cao's vassal so he probably wouldn't fear Cao Cao.

[King Piankhy]

Yun, on May 17 2006, 09:58 PM, said:

Ma Chao is another example. He caused the deaths of his father, brothers, and entire clan (who were hostages in Xu and Ye), by rebelling out of what is at best a reaction of paranoia over the imminent campaign against Zhang Lu. He even allied with Han Sui, the man who had once turned against Ma Teng and killed his wife and children.

The novel changes this such that Ma Teng was lured into the capital to be killed, and Ma Chao was simply rebelling to avenge his father.

So Han Sui and Ma Teng weren't sworn brothers either? If so then did people actualy have them back then.

[Yun]

Han Sui was a rebel leader against the government in Liangzhou from the very start, i.e. the late 180s. Ma Teng started as an officer under the governor of Liangzhou, i.e. he was one of those tasked with suppressing Han Sui. But after the governor was killed in battle, Ma Teng switched sides and joined the rebels.

Han Sui and Ma Teng then became sworn brothers, but later they fell out and began fighting so bitterly that Han Sui captured and killed Ma's wife and some of his children (not including Ma Chao, Ma Tie and Ma Xiu). Cao Cao sent someone to make peace between them, but they remained on bad terms. Also, Cao Cao appointed Ma Teng as Minister of the Imperial Guards just before the Battle of Chibi and called him to the capital, so that he wouldn't make trouble in the west. Ma Teng's whole family went along too, except for Ma Chao who stayed to command Ma Teng's army. Ma Tie and Ma Xiu were also appointed to positions in the imperial court. Ma Chao was made a general, but remained semi-independent in practical terms.

Cao Cao didn't expect that Ma Chao would be so ruthless as to put his family's lives in danger by rebelling.

There were sworn brothers back then - Gongsun Zan took a few - but Liu Bei, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei did not become sworn brothers.

[Liu Bei228]

James, on May 23 2006, 05:06 AM, said:

Well almost everything in the novel sort of made him look good. Also with Ma Chao his father Ma Teng was Cao Cao's vassal so he probably wouldn't fear Cao Cao.

Well yeah sure, I agree with that but, historically what do you think of him?

[James]

[quote]Well yeah sure, I agree with that but, historically what do you think of him?

I do think Liu Bei was a good man for things he did during Dong Zhuo's rebellion. I also think he did a good job forming a kingdom from nothing.

[Yun]

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I do think Liu Bei was a good man for things he did during Dong Zhuo's rebellion.

He didn't do anything during the Dong Zhuo rebellion, actually. He was serving Gongsun Zan, and Gongsun didn't get involved.