[ih8eurocentrix]

How did the Different Armies Differ in Weapons,skill, armour and Tactics,and why were the mongols military succesful while Turks were not.

[Whsie]

ih8eurocentrix, on May 2 2006, 08:54 PM, said:

How did the Different Armies Differ in Weapons,skill, armour and Tactics,and why were the extemely mongols military succesful while Turks were not.

Not too sure about this one. Mongols should have been stronger. Well the reason for success is simple. Turks were unlucky to not only face the Tang dynasty, but also Tang Taizong. Mongols on the otherhand faced a useless South Song Dynasty(Liao,Jin,Mongols. All lost). Song may have been the most unsuccessful military dynasty in Chinese history.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

The comparison shouldn't be about the Song which is a secondary power, but the Jin.

[tadamson]

The biggest difference was probably social. To gain absolute power Temuljin had to restructure the social basis of the steppe peoples. The resulting combined political-military units pulled together the disparate 'tribal' and 'clan' units. In previous steppe confederations a single ruling tribe or clan raised themselves above the others (politically) and left the basic structure for an opposition intact. That said, the Xionnu had a pretty good run of sucess.

This post has been edited by tadamson: 03 May 2006 - 12:40 PM

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Thats really not the reason. Such strucutres are hardly restricted to the Mongols. The Xiongnu, Xian Bei, Rouran, Tujue, Hui Yin, all had political military structures under one single ruler which can put to death any minor kings, in fact the Shi Ji's account of xiongnu social organization is virtually identical to the Mongols.

The Xiongnu and Tujue empires are very successful, its merely the degree of success, and that has alot to do with the strength of the neibour in comparison.

[ih8eurocentrix]

Military the mongols were very succesful in defeating its civilized neighbours, while Tujue and Xiongnu were not succesful .Han and Tang defeated both the Xiongnu and the Tujue, whilst Sassanids defeated both the Hephalites and Tujue.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Sassanid didn't defeat the Hephtalites and Tujue(but they never invaded). Power is an abstract pschological concept, once a state recognize that it does not have the power to overpower another, it will not blindly invade. Many barbarian troops might just have great incentives to rule China, but decides not to invade because they know they will fail, and if they loose, their whole fragile tribal structure empire can break. A victoy is merely achieving the objective in war, it does not mean the total destruction of the opponent.
And in this area, the Sassanians lost more wars against the Hephtalites and the Tujue than vice versa.

The Hephtalite king even trapped Peroz I during one of the later's intrusion into Hephtalite territory and forced the king to kneel before him. Peroz had to swallow the humiliation but arranged the ritual to be done in afternoon with the King of the Hephtalite standing between him and the sun, so when he bows, it will be symbolically to the sun rather than to the king of Hephtalites. A treaty was signed in which poles were made as a border demarcation in which the Persians are not allowed to cross.
Peroz later invaded, used elephants to root out the poles, and carried the pole on their trunks, so whereever Peroz invades, he has not crossed the poles.(hence keeping to the term of the treaty).
But unfortunately for him, he was again ambushed and this time killed.

[ih8eurocentrix]

Sassanids did defeat nomadic armies for example in
427 Ephthalites suffer overwhelming defeat in Persia.
Attila crossed into armenia with Huns and was Defeated by sassanids.

Gokturks invaded the Sassanids lands According to Wikipedia

He successfully defeated a large Gokturk army. Reportedly, the Turkish forces outnumbered his troops five to one. Relying on the discipline and superior training of his Persian Cataphract cavalry, Bahram trapped and defeated the Turks, killing the Gokturk Yabqu.

[Subotai]

Turks vs Mongols

Battle of Ain Jalut mongols lost
Jelaladdin Manguberdi the son of kwarezm shah defeated once a large mongol army. It's believed that Chingiz said once "if i had a son like him" about manguberdi.
Bulgars stopped, defeated once the mongols but later got defeated.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Quote

Sassanids did defeat nomadic armies for example in
427 Ephthalites suffer overwhelming defeat in Persia.
Attila crossed into armenia with Huns and was Defeated by sassanids.

The invasion of 427 is still unclear. Tabari says that it was the "king of turks invaded Persia". Firdausi said the invasion was those of the Chinese. The first person to think that the invasion of 427 which Bahram defeated was those of Ephtalites was Drouin in this work "memoires sur les Huns Ephtalites" in 1895. I tend to side with Marquart who thinks the invaders were either the Chionites or the Kushans. Because Chinese source mention Ephtalite migration westwards until much later.
The first mentioning of the name "Ephtalite" in Persian sources was in 457 during the reign of Peroz.

Quote

Gokturks invaded the Sassanids lands According to Wikipedia

Yes, and they took Bactria away from them. The Persians retook it but it still ultimately fell to the Turks.

[ih8eurocentrix]

I was Talking about the Gokturk invasion of Armenia where they were defeated and the khan was even killed in battle.Havent heard of the invasion of bactria though.

[Yun]

Moved to the Ethnicities section, since it has a wider coverage than just Sui and Tang.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

"I was Talking about the Gokturk invasion of Armenia where they were defeated and the khan was even killed in battle.Havent heard of the invasion of bactria though."

I think its a wiki mistake, they are talking about the invasion of 427, with Bahram V defeating the invading "turks".

[General_Zhaoyun]

Move to Chinese Art of war, b'cos it's talking more about warfare and military..

[ih8eurocentrix]

Lol first moved to ethnicity section ,now art of War.

Alliances and wars between the Gok Turks and Sassanians are recorded in the epic Iranian national poem - The Shahnamah.

Chosroes and the Western Turks allied against the Ephthalites.

In 555, Ishtemi west Gok Turk forces pursued the Juan Juan. In 558 he defeated the remnants of the Chionite Huns who soon were to appear in the pontic steppes as the 'Avars'. One year earlier he had married the Sassanina emporer's daughter and further strenghtened an alliance. The two would attack Ephtalites. Turk armies took Chach and Nesef. A Turk/Sassanian border was established along the Amu Darya. The A-shih-na clan of Gok Turks became overlords of Central Asia north of the river. A brief war broke out between Sassanian and Turk in 569 and 571.

Ishtemi contacts with Persia were shpaed as a desire to control trade routes through Ephtalite lands. Once the Ephtalites were overrun, the Sassanians preferred to restrict the flow of trade. The Turks had two wars with them. Little progress was made. Then in 588-589 the Turks lost a battle to Bahram Chobin. The Turks traded more with the Byzantines, Chinese and Persians afterwards till war with the Tang in 581.

Also
http://en.wikipedia....i/Bahram_Chobin