[joeinjapan]

Hi! its my first post, but i have a burning question...
I heard that the second Ming Emperor Zhu Yunwen is recorded as having been killed in a fire but it is widely believed that he escaped and lived in secret, underground as a monk for many years afterwards.

I saw the "Wikipedia is b.s" thread so il make it clear that thats where i heard this. ive searched elswhere, and I read that records of the Jianwen emperor have largely vanished thanks to his vindictive successor, or usurper.

Can anyone tell me anything about the Jianwen emperor, especially the intriguing claim that he lived "underground" (I immediately thought of "The Phantom of the Opera"!!!!)
Also Wikipedia says "widely believed". In China? By Historians?

Any information would be greatly appreciated!

[jiangji]

According F.W Mote, he took era name Jianwen (Establishing the Civil), which mean signal change of style from his grandfather era. He faced the problem combating the oppressive atmosphere created by his grandfather reign.

He is being credited not only establish a prevailing civilty but also renergize his associate in governing. the scholar-official elite. He made it clear that he did not intend to govern without their collaboration when he raised some of his most trusted scholar-advisers to high position. Qi Tai, Huang Zicheng, Lian Zining are several famous scholar.

Some consider him as a good emperor. The problem is that his info is too little mainly because Emperor Yongle wipe out most of the record on him to ensure that he is the true Ming Second Emperor.

[xu huang]

There have been a few rumours about what happened to Zhu Yunwen.

Burning himself

In 太宗实录, when Zhu Di entered Jinchuan Gate, Zhu Yunwen had wanted to go out personally and welcome his uncle. However, he decided against it and sighed to himself, "I do not dare to face my uncle" and set himself and his empress on fire. When Zhu Di saw the fire rising from the palace, he quickly ordered men to rescue the emperor, but it was too late.

However, the above assumption was widely criticised by people because 太宗实录 was amended 3 times by Zhu Di himself in order to make him look good.

Became a monk

明历纪事本末 recorded that after Zhu Yunwen escaped from Nanjing, he became a monk and went to places like Yunnan, Guizhou, Sichuan, Hubei, Zhejiang and Guangdong.

Went overseas

Some believed the Zhu Yunwen escaped in a boat and went to Nanyang, settling down on the east coast of present-day Sumatra, Indonesia. Some people said that Zhu Yunwen left for Nanyang from Kaiyuan Temple in Quanzhou.

Zhu Di was afraid that Zhu Yunwen would gather the overseas Chinese and rebelled against the Ming Dynasty. That's was why he sent Zheng He down. Among the troops with Zheng He that sailed, a number of them were Imperial Guards.

But whether Zheng He was sent to Nanyang looking for Zhu Yunwen, we would never know.

Hiding in temples

There have been 2 versions of this.

1) Some believed that Zhu Yunwen hid in Puji Temple in Wu County, Jiangsu and became a disciple of Yao Guangxiao and later resided in Huanghe Temple in Qionglong Mountain. He died in 1423 due to illness.

2) Some believed that he hid in Fuoluo Temple in Sichuan and died there. Zhu Yunwen chose the temple because it was not easy to be found. Because he used to cry secretly in the direction of the capital, later the temple was renamed as Wangjing(望京) Temple.


However, all these are only assumptions or rumours and no one really know what happens to him.

PS:My transation might be a bit off, and the info might not be correct.

[LYY]

Quote

Went overseas

Some believed the Zhu Yunwen escaped in a boat and went to Nanyang, settling down on the east coast of present-day Sumatra, Indonesia. Some people said that Zhu Yunwen left for Nanyang from Kaiyuan Temple in Quanzhou.

Zhu Di was afraid that Zhu Yunwen would gather the overseas Chinese and rebelled against the Ming Dynasty. That's was why he sent Zheng He down. Among the troops with Zheng He that sailed, a number of them were Imperial Guards.

But whether Zheng He was sent to Nanyang looking for Zhu Yunwen, we would never know.

It is said,according to a report, there is a place in Sumatra nowadays that still keep and practice a tradition that is close to Ming. The enthroned day of Zhu Yunwen is a day celebration.

Good for you to find out why ...

[Rong Qin Wang]

Zunjing de China History Forum members,

Each dynasty has its fair share of sparkling events, and the incidents surrounding Emperor Jian Wen was a memorable one for the Ming Dynasty.

When the original crown prince died in 1392, Ming Taizu appointed his eldest grandson (instead of his younger son) as the crown prince. This made Prince Yen, the fourth son of Ming Taizu, very unhappy since he made more contributions to the empire than any other princes. He deserved the throne even more than his eldest brother. With this in mind, he would have never tolerated his nephew as the new Emperor. Six years later, Ming Taizu passed away, and was succeeded by his eldest grandson Zhu Yunwen.

Ironically, Zhu Yunwen took the era name Jian Wen, which meant “establishing the civic.” This era name had the completely opposite meaning of his grandfather’s era name, Hong Wu, which meant “vast military.” This might indicate his scholarly personality. He really trusted his scholar-advisors; Qi Tai, Huang Zicheng, Lian Zining, and elevated them to high positions of officials. They advised the Emperor to reduce the power of the other princes, who were mostly his uncles. The Emperor was successful in cutting down the territories and power of the other five uncles. Prince Yen knew that he would be the next victim, if he did not take quick actions. So, he gathered his own troops, and plotted a rebellion. Of course, Prince Yen was much older, and had a lot more experience, so he was able to easily defeat the Emperor. I believe all the scholars and their family under Emperor Jian Wen were executed afterward, and history books have recorded that Emperor himself died in a fire during the coup. However, there were many rumors that the Emperor did not die.

I think that all the assumptions mentioned above, except for the one about “burning himself,” are logical. Emperor Jian Wen would not have been stupid enough to set himself on fire with his Empress. It is too bad that most of the records about Emperor Jian Wen were set on fire by his usurper, Emperor Yong Le. So, we really don’t have that much information to verify all these assumptions. Emperor Yong Le really did a good job in obliterating Emperor Jian Wen from history books.

By the way, I was wondering if anybody know what happened to his Empress, and did Emperor Jian Wen have any children?

Also, I am curious as to what was the line of succession in the Ming Dynasty? Was it legitimate for Emperor Jian Wen to succeed his grandfather? I have always thought that even a younger son would be closer in the line of succession than the eldest grandson. I can only remember one other case; Fu Chai succeeded his grandfather, He Lu, as Wu Wang during the Spring and Autumn period.

Xie Xie,

[galvatron prime]

i think emperor zhu yun wen overthow by his 4th uncle zhu di was thank to zheng ho ,zheng ho was the 1 of the mastermind to help zhu di to get rid of emperor yunwen ,emperor yun wen was believe to be eldest son of emperor zhu yuan zhang eldest son ,emperor zhu yunzhang eldest son pass away early so emperor wenjian take over his grandfather the 4th uncle zhu di was likely only emperor zhu yuanzhang survival son ,emperoer wenjian have 2 sons? as some resources say,it may not acurrate .

[Rong Qin Wang]

galvatron, on Sep 11 2006, 03:41 AM, said:

i think emperor zhu yun wen overthow by his 4th uncle zhu di was thank to zheng ho ,zheng ho was the 1 of the mastermind to help zhu di to get rid of emperor yunwen ,emperor yun wen was believe to be eldest son of emperor zhu yuan zhang eldest son ,emperor zhu yunzhang eldest son pass away early so emperor wenjian take over his grandfather the 4th uncle zhu di was likely only emperor zhu yuanzhang survival son ,emperoer wenjian have 2 sons? as some resources say,it may not acurrate .

Zunjing de Galvatron,

Thanks for your informative post! After doing some more research on Wikipedia, I have found out that Zheng He was the name given to the eunuch by Emperor Yong Le as a reward for winning war battles during the siege of Nanjing .

Yes, everyone knows Emperor Jian Wen was the eldest grandson of Emperor Hong Wu. Since the original crown prince, the eldest son, died early, Zhu Yun Wen succeeded to the throne as the second Emperor.

What I am asking is whether you guys think that was the right thing to do or not? Do you guys think that Emperor Hong Wu made a smart move by naming his eldest grandson heir over his younger son?

I remember watching a Wuxia series saying that Emperor Jian Wen was not really the son of Emperor Hong Wu?s eldest son. Since it is a TV Series, I really cannot believe everything in it. This might be a rumor started by Emperor Yong Le to justify his usurpation. TV Series also said that Emperor Jian Wen had two sons, who survived after the fire, but there was nothing mentioned about that in the official history books. I guess information about Emperor Jian Wen is very hard to find since Emperor Yong Le did not want future generations to be aware of what he did. Hence, we have a topic in here about ?The Mysterious Jianwen Emperor. Hehehe!

Mr. Galvatron, you seem to know a lot of side notes about Chinese History. Do you mind sharing with me what types of books you have read, or where you have taken some information from the Internet?

Xie Xie,

[galvatron prime]

i personal think emperor zhu wen shall have his son or desendent survive from fire ,as the indonesia kaiyuan temple prove that ,to le ,i havemostly read book on chinese history in bookstore and you shall try to get china march west book or book on emperor kang xi ,i too still learning .