[Akskl]

Naimans, Kereits (Kereis), Jalairs, Qongirrats, etc - all these well-known from the "Secret History" names of the nomad tribes are parts of the modern Kazakh Turkic speaking people. They were Turkic speaking tribes long BEFORE the 12th-13th centuries and they are Turkic speaking NOW. Marco Polo spoke to Kublai Khan in "Tartar" i.e. Turkic language. Plano de Carpini's interpreters were Turkic speaking Kumans (Kipchaks, Polovtsy) - part of the modern Kazakh people as well. Wang Khan Toghryl - Khan of Keraits (Turkic speaking people baprized in 1006 by Nestorians) was Genghis Khan's named father. What language they used? Of course Turkic!Genghis Khan did not know any other language but his own - Turkic language. Nomad peoples of the Steppe had practically the SAME language almost everywhere because they were NOMADS.
There are thousands and thousands of direct Genghis Khan's descendants in Kazakhstan. Genghis Khanites always were rulers in Kazakh Steppe till the abolition of Khan power at the beginnig of 19th century by the Russian colonial power.

Modern Khalkha-Mongols have no survived Genghis-Khanites. They probably killed all of the Genghis Khan descendants as foreign rulers.

Mongol version of the "Secret History" is a translation of the lost Turkic language original.

You can read about Turkic speaking Naimans, Kereits, Jalairs, Qongirats, etc, and of course, Uighurs, Tatars, in the Introduction to the book of Professor Paul Ratchnevski (just skip first few pages of the Contents):

http://www.amazon.co...444#reader-link

Genealogy of Kazakhs:
http://www.elim.kz/

For anybody who read the "Secret History" it is absolutely obvious that all the characters speak the same language. Genghis Khan, his relatives,a and so called "Mongols" - from one side, and Kereits (Keraits, Kereis), Qongirats (Ongirrats, Ungirrats, etc.), Naimans, Tatars, Uighurs, Onguts - Turkic peoples - from the other side. There are plenty of dialogs, tet-a-tet conversations, messages, etc. How all this can be explained?

Read about Genghis Khan and his so-called ""Mongols"" who all spoke Turkic language:

http://www.uglychine...g/mongolian.htm

Turkic speaking groups (or tribes) like Kereits, Naimans, Jalairs, Qongyrats, Onguts (now Waqs or Uaks), Merkits, etc. should not be called "Mongols". They were Turks in 11-13th centuries, and they are Kazakh Turks today. See for example:

http://www.nestorian...n_timeline.html

1007-1008 Conversion of 200,000 Kerait Turks

http://www.oxuscom.com/timeline.htm

1007-1008 Conversion of 200,000 Kerait Turks to Nestorian Christianity

­http://www.religion-onlin­e.org/showchapter.asp?breast­le=1553&am p;am p;am p;C=1362


IGOR DE RACHEWILTZ, Turks in China under the Mongols: A Preliminary Investigation of Turco-Mongol Relations in the 13th and 14th Century, in: CHINA AMONG EQUALS - THE MIDDLE KINGDOM AND ITS NEIGHBORS, 10th - 14th CENTURIES, EDITED BY MORRIS ROSSABI, Chapter 10, University of California Press - Berkeley - Los Angeles – London, pp.281-310.

...We must not forget also that, as a young man and for many years, Chinggis Khan had been a client and an ally of the Kereyid court, and that he must inevitably have been exposed to Turkish culture through this close association. It is perhaps not fortuitous that the very title he assumed, Chinggis Khan, is of Turkish origin [8]...

Genghis Khan' "Mongols" were all Turkic speaking tribes - now parts of modern Kazakhs. Please read the following paper written by author of one of the latest translations of the Secret History (I fell guilty that I did not ask his permission for posting his paper on Internet):

http://www.kyrgyz.ru...p?showtopic=263

Linguistical differences between Turkic nomads and Mongolian peoples like Khalkha, Kalmucks, Buryats, are tremendous now, and were so 800 years ago. Joshi had huge linguistical and cultural diifficulties when he was conquering Hori-Tumats - ancestors of modern Buryats.
On other side, Plano Carpini wrote that when he was in Karakorum, his interpretors were Comans - Kipchak Turks.

http://www.uglychine...g/mongolian.htm

Keraits
East of the Naimans, from the Orkhon in the west to the Onon and Kerulen rivers, was the new home of the Keraits. This is a group of people that had been disputed by Tao Zongyi to be Mongols, but Rashid ad-Din placed them in a subgroup with the Naimans, Uygurs, Kirghiz, Kipchaks and other Turkic peoples while acknowledging the resemblances between the Keraits and the Mongols (not Khalkha-Mongols! -A.). Still one more Chinese, Tu Ji, in his "History of the Mongols", assumed that the Keraits were Turkic and originated

...Keraits were Turkic and originated from Turkic Kangli and Ghuzz and their language was Turkic. It was also said that an important Kirghiz (Kazakh! - A.) tribe bears the name of Kirai, which is equivalent to Kerait. As to their Mongol characteristics, Paul Ratchnevscky assumed that some Khitans were left behind and got assimiliated into the Keraits. Paul Ratchnevsky emphasized the amicableness between the Keraits and West Khitans as exemplified by the fact that Kerait's khan, Toghrul, had once sought refuge in Western Liao. Paul Ratchnevsky mentioned that the Keraits accepted Nestorian faith and that the grandfather and father of Toghrul had Latin names like Marghus (Markus) and Qurjaquz (Kyriakus).

The importance of Keraits would lie in the fact that Genghis Khan sought the protection under Toghrul and their alliance laid the foundation for the uprise of the Mongols. Toghrul enjoyed a title called Wang Khan conferred by the Jurchens and hence an alliance with Toghrul served the purpose of elelvating Genghis Khan's position among the nomads. After exterminating the Tartars in AD 1202, Genghis Khan broke with Toghrul's Keraits, and Genghis Kan killed Toghrul in AD 1203 and took over Kerait throne.

Rene Grousset "Empire of the Steppes" Rutgers University Press :

p.191 "The Kerayit people are usually considered as Turks. " The legend of Mongol origins leaves no room for them, and it is hard to say whether the Kerayit were Mongols who had been strongly influenced by the Turks , or Turks, who were becoming Mongolized. In any event, many Kerayit titles were Turkic, and Togrul is a Turkic rather than a Mongol name" 5

5 Pelliot, "La Haute Asie", p.25

Introduction:

p.xxiv (13th line from bottom):
"...the Kerayit or Naimans, presumably Turkic, in the twelfth (century)..."

p.xxv (4 line from the top):
"...Nevertheless, history tells us that in Mongolia itself the Jenghis-Khanites mongolized many apparently Turkic tribes: the Naimans of the Altai, the Kerayits of the Gobi, and the Onguts of Chahar. Before the unification under Jenghis Khan which brought all these tribes under the Blue Mongols, part of present day Mongolia was Turkic; indeed even now a Turkic people, the Yakut, occupy northeastern Siberia, north of the Tungus, in Lene, Indigirka, and Kolyma basins. The presense of this Turkic group so near Bering Strait, north of the Mongols and even of the Tungus on the Arctic Ocean, neccesitates caution in attempts to determine the relative position of the "first" Turks, Mongols, and Tungus..."

All these ostensibly "Mongol" tribes still exist now within modern Kazakhs. See www.elim.kz
They were Turkic speakers in 10th-13th centuries and they are Turkic speakers today. They live in Eastern and Central Kazakhstan, in Northern half of Sinkiang province of China (Eastern Turkestan), and in western Mongolia today.
Turkic language has not been changed very much since the times of Orkhon inscriptions and Codex Cumanicus.
The "Turko-Mongols" of Genghis Khan are not related to the modern Mongols (Khalkha, Kalmucks, Buryats).
I can provide tons of similar citations as above from many Western books.

The 100% Turkic speaking groups and tribes are being called "Mongols"! All Western and other historians do know, and write in their books and papers, that all the "Secret History" tribes were Turkic speaking, and nevertheless they senselessly continue to call them "Mongols".

Russian censorship and chauvinistic propaganda did not allow Kazakhs and other non-Russian peoples of the ex-USSR to get information about their own history and heritage, only negative facts were allowed to know about nomads and their history. Khalkha-Mongols did not have such censorship.

Turkic language was widespread in all territory of the Great Steppe between Danube river and the Great Wall of China. Turkic nomads were in ceaseless motion and communication with each other, so their language was uniform over thousands and thousands miles with practically no even dialect differences. Settled peoples lived in their lands having almost no communication with each other - that's why they developed various dialects and different languages on their much smaller territories.

Speculations about changing names of groups or tribes is total nonsense. Imagine that somebody would try to allege that, say, Vyatichs or Krivichs were, say, Germanic tribes in 8th century, but then they "disappeared", but later, some Slav tribes "took their names", but these Slav Vyatichs and Krivichs "have absolutley nothing in common" with that "Germanic" Vyatichs and Krivichs

If Genghis Khan was a "real Mongol" then why the SACRED Burqan-Khaldun mountain (where Genghis Khan used to pray to Tengry - the traditional Turkic God - Heaven) now has a totally different Khalkha-Mongolian name? As well as many other Turkic geographical names of lakes, rivers, mountains, etc. mentioned in the "Secret History"?

This post has been edited by Akskl: 26 May 2008 - 06:52 PM

[Zorigo]

-sonin gar shu ene

This post has been edited by Zorigo: 23 December 2007 - 05:42 PM

[Zorigo]

It was quite interesting to read your long post and i am also happy that Kazakhs and Uzbeks are becoming interested seeking in their historical root.
But somehow i could not see your logic about your attempt to avoid/cut their Mongol connection.
Can i offer my opinion and comment several places on your post

Quote

Naimans, Kereits (Kereis), Jalairs, Qongirrats,

These clans are part ancestors of Kazakh and Uzbek people, migrated from mongolia together with Chinggis conquest.
These tribes are not Chinggisid clan.Chinggis khaan queen Burte was from Qongirrat (Khongirad) clan. There are still khongirad clans in eastern Mongolia and Baikal lake area of Russia who are pure Mongols.
Temujin was born as son Esukhei bagatur of Taichiud clan of Khiyad Borjigon.

Quote

What language they used? Of course Turkic!Genghis Khan did not know any other language but his own - Turkic language. Nomad peoples of the Steppe had practically the SAME language almost everywhere because they were NOMADS.

If they all spoke only turkic language, Secret History of Mongols should be in Turkic language too. I am certain that Mongols at that time were masters of many other language. Chinggis Khaan was discussing with Chang Chun Taoist.
from -Chinghis Khan's letter of invitation to Ch'ang ch'un

Heaven has abandoned China owing to its haughtiness and extravagant luxury. But I, living in the northern wilderness, have not inordinate passions. I hate luxury and exercise moderation. I have only one coat and one food. I eat the same food and am dressed in the same tatters as my humble herdsmen. I consider the people my //[p.38] children, and take an interest in talented men as if they were my brothers. We always agree in our principles, and we are always united by mutual affection. At military exercises I am always in the front, and in time of battle am never behind. In the space of seven years I have succeeded in accomplishing a great work, and uniting the whole world in one empire. I have not myself dis- tinguished qualities.

http://depts.washing...ts/changchun.ht ml
There are plenty of historical sources letters- that Mongols used Mongol, Turkic, Tungustic, Chinese, Russian, Arabian, Persian and so on.

.

Quote

There are thousands and thousands of direct Genghis Khan's descendants in Kazakhstan. Genghis Khanites always were rulers in Kazakh Steppe till the abolition of Khan power at the beginnig of 19th century by the Russian colonial power. .

I believe you, there millions of Chinggis khaan descendants

.

Quote

Modern Khalkha-Mongols have no survived Genghis-Khanites. They probably killed all of the Genghis Khan descendants as foreign rulers.
Mongol version of the "Secret History" is a translation of the lost Turkic language original. .

Prove your theory please. Untill now we did not find a turkic language Secret History yet. Maybe you should produce something.
Secret History was written in Mongolian Language in chinese character. Pretty much secret code???


Mongols were constant civil war against each other- over the dispute who had legitimate right. Every mongol prince had a right to claim throne.


Chinggis Khaan had 4 sons from Burte queen- Zochi, Tsagaadai, Ogedei, Tolui-

Mongols have tradition that youngest son inherits fathers home. So sons of Tolui inherited present day Mongolia, from Chinggis Khaan himself. They are legal rulers of Mongol. So descendants of Chinggis khaan in Mongolia are from Tolui and Ogedei.

Descendants of Chinggis khaan in Kazakhstan are from Chagatai, Sons of Tsagaadai were rulers of present day Kazakhstan, Chagadaiites. Chagataiites even developed own language called Chagatai Language which died out eventually. http://en.wikipedia....agatai_language
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't see any competition of who is real Chinggisid. That is meaningless.
Genghis DNA check is everywhere. http://news.bbc.co.u...don/3860339.stm
I got test and i had that DNA too, free meal

Arabs and Jews are both from Abraham

Quote

For anybody who read the "Secret History" it is absolutely obvious that all the characters speak the same language. Genghis Khan, his relatives,a and so called "Mongols" - from one side, and Kereits (Keraits, Kereis), Qongirats (Ongirrats, Ungirrats, etc.), Naimans, Tatars, Uighurs, Onguts - Turkic peoples - from the other side. There are plenty of dialogs, tet-a-tet conversations, messages, etc. How all this can be explained? .

It can be explained as Mongol and Turkic people had deep rooted connection in their history. All the tribe names you mentioned are conquered tribes by Mongols.

Quote

If Genghis Khan was a "real Mongol" then why the SACRED Burqan-Khaldun mountain (where Genghis Khan used to pray to Tengry - the traditional Turkic God - Heaven) now has a totally different Khalkha-Mongolian name?

Burkhan Khaldun is still has same name Burkhan Khaldun in Mongolia. Tengery is still used same word as Tenger in Mongolian too. In Mongolia, Mongolian people still worship Eternal Blue Tengry ( Khokh Monkh Tengri), All over Mongolia there are Obos (chunk of stones on top of Mountains) that Mongols put their offer to Tengri.

At the end i still can not see the any controvercial issues in relation between Mongol and Turkic people in old history. Instead of trying to rob others history, you shoud look into more cooperative ways to study the History. Good-will-Cooperation will bring true beniefit to Mankind, not only Mongols and Turkic people.
Short term political goal will not last long. Truth will reign

This post has been edited by Zorigo: 17 May 2006 - 11:08 AM

[Karakhan]

*Edit*
it would seem that all the other threads on this subject ended up being locked.
Please continue gentlemen, my apologies for this inconvenience.

[Akskl]

In recent translation of the Secret History made by Urgunge Onon you can see hundreds and hundreds explanations of the words and names which can be possible only by using what he called "Orkhon Turkish" - i.e. practically Kazakh language.
Also, all geographical names in the Secret History are Turkic, and today on territory of modern Mongolia they all sound totally different.

http://www.amazon.co...352#reader-link
p.38, ref. 73:
...De Rachewiltz (1971-1984, v.4, p.151) thinks that the mountain in question (i.e.the sacred Burkhan Khaldun - A.) may be either Tsagaan Ondor (White Heights) or Khentei Qan, both in the Khentei Mountains of northern Mongolia.

http://www.zanabazar...an/burkhan.html

...Another locale in the Khentii Mountains frequented by Zanabazar was 7724-foot Khentii Khan Uul, also known as the Burkhan Khaldun of the Khamug Mongols. The top of this mountain is where, according to legend, Chingis Khan went to pray for guidance before going into battle. (It should not be confused with the Burkhan Khaldun of the Uriankhai, where Chingis, in an famous episode in his early life, hid from the Merkit tribesmen who had kidnapped his wife Bцrte and tried to kill him, now identified by most historians as 7534-foot Erdene Uul, about twenty miles southwest of here.)... End of quote

TWO Burkhan-Khaldun mountains!! And both have Khalkha-Mongolian names now - Khentii Khan Uul and Erdene Uul! How is this possible - not to know which of the mountains is the SACRED one of Genghis Khan, and to rename it?! It is obvious that Khalkha-Mongols have no relation to Genghis Khan and his so-called "Mongols" (i.e. Mangqols).

Turkic peoples and Mongolian (Khalkha, Buryats, Kalmucks) peoples have different and mutually incomprehesible languages. As we know from the Secret History, Genghis Khan's troops had huge cultural and linguistic problems when they were conquering Khori-Tumats - ancestors of modern Buryats, who are practically the same people as Khalkha-Mongols. And at the same time the Genghis Khan troops considered Kypchaks, Qanglys, Ongut Turks and other Turkic tribes as brethrens, who had the same language and culture. Naimans, Kereits, Qongyrats, Jalairs etc. were Turkic tribes - now parts of Kazakhs - as well as Kypchaks, Qanglys, Onguts (Waqs or Uaks now).

This post has been edited by Akskl: 20 May 2006 - 10:27 PM

[Zorigo]

Akskl, on May 20 2006, 10:21 PM, said:

In recent translation of the Secret History made by Urgunge Onon you can see hundreds and hundreds explanations of the words and names which can be possible only by using what he called "Orkhon Turkish" - i.e. practically Kazakh language.

Orkhon turkic ( not turkish) language is Old Turkic language.
The Old Turkic language spoken by the Gokturks and used on the Orkhon inscriptions. It was written using the Orkhon script. Old Turkic is closely related to the ancient Uyghur language. It is the ancestor of the Western Turkic languages, which include both the Oghuz and Kypchak groups. There were no Kazakh at that time.

Quote

Also, all geographical names in the Secret History are Turkic, and today on territory of modern Mongolia they all sound totally different.

Many names in Mongolian still in old turkic language. Turkic empires existed in Mongolia before Chinggisid Mongol Empires.

Quote

http://www.zanabazar...an/burkhan.html

...Another locale in the Khentii Mountains frequented by Zanabazar was 7724-foot Khentii Khan Uul, also known as the Burkhan Khaldun of the Khamug Mongols. The top of this mountain is where, according to legend, Chingis Khan went to pray for guidance before going into battle. (It should not be confused with the Burkhan Khaldun of the Uriankhai, where Chingis, in an famous episode in his early life, hid from the Merkit tribesmen who had kidnapped his wife Bцrte and tried to kill him, now identified by most historians as 7534-foot Erdene Uul, about twenty miles southwest of here.)... End of quote

In Mongolia, Burkhan Khaldun Mountain still stands in its place for last thousans years. Burkhan Khaldun is one of mounation of Khentii Khan Mountain ranges. Like Everest peak in Himalai.

Quote

TWO Burkhan-Khaldun mountains!! And both have Khalkha-Mongolian names now - Khentii Khan Uul and Erdene Uul! How is this possible - not to know which of the mountains is the SACRED one of Genghis Khan, and to rename it?! It is obvious that Khalkha-Mongols have no relation to Genghis Khan and his so-called "Mongols" (i.e. Mangqols).
Turkic peoples and Mongolian (Khalkha, Buryats, Kalmucks) peoples have different and mutually incomprehesible languages. As we know from the Secret History, Genghis Khan's troops had huge cultural and linguistic problems when they were conquering Khori-Tumats - ancestors of modern Buryats, who are practically the same people as Khalkha-Mongols. And at the same time the Genghis Khan troops considered Kypchaks, Qanglys, Ongut Turks and other Turkic tribes as brethrens, who had the same language and culture. Naimans, Kereits, Qongyrats, Jalairs etc. were Turkic tribes - now parts of Kazakhs - as well as Kypchaks, Qanglys, Onguts (Waqs or Uaks now).

hey aksakal

you should find out some facts before you advertise ignorance to the world. also there are many nice latin names for the kind of "arguments" you are putting forth, happy reading... http://www.fallacyfiles.org/

I can understand why you are trying to say Chinggis khaan is not Mongol, but Kazakh.
I guess you can have Chinggis baby.

This post has been edited by Zorigo: 21 May 2006 - 01:36 AM

[Zorigo]

Karakhan, on May 18 2006, 03:21 AM, said:

*Edit*
it would seem that all the other threads on this subject ended up being locked.
Please continue gentlemen, my apologies for this inconvenience.

you are m****

[Karakhan]

Zorigo, on May 21 2006, 06:37 AM, said:

you are m****

??
in anycase, since this primarily does not concern China itself, I'm moving this thread to Asian History.

[Akskl]

"Kazakhs did not exist in 12-13 centuries".
Oh, yes, Kazakh did not have any ancestors, they came from Moon! LOL
What about the Khalkha-Mongols? Did they exist in 12-13 centuries? No, they didn't, but this fact did not stop them from monopolizing all Genghis Khan's heritage, inspite of tons of obvious facts. The so-called "Turco-Mongols" were kind of Kazakhs, because they all spoke Turkic language - not Khalkha-Mongolian one or something like that. The Turko-Mongols and Kazakhs had same everithing - language, territory, customs, way of life, culture, religion, food, drinks (koumiss - not airag), heroic eposes, legends, customs of proclaiming Khans, etc.
TheTurkic nomads lived for many centuries between Europe and Asia, that's why they have mixed racial type. Arabs live between Europe and Africa, and also have mixed racial type, but nobody calls Arabs with dark skin from Sudan or Mauritania "Arabo-Negroes" for example.
The Secret History survived written in Chinese hieroglyphs, and phonetically can be read in many different ways depending which of Chinese dialects is used. Language of the Secret History is closer to Turkic language than to Khakha-Mongolian one (read for example V.I. Rassadin - a Russian historian - http://www.kyrgyz.ru/?page=234 ). Naimans, Kereits, Jalaits, Qongyrats were Turkic speaking peoples. This was asserted by many Russian, Soviet and Western historians like I.Berezin, Veselovskiy, L.Viktorova, Paul Ratchnevsky, Leo de Rachewiltz, Rene Grousset, J.J.Saunders and many others.

This post has been edited by Akskl: 21 May 2006 - 11:17 PM

[Yun]

It's rather interesting, isn't it? The Chinese say Chinggis Khan was a Chinese ruler (or at least the grandfather of a Chinese ruler), but the Mongols are angry about this. At the same time, the Kazakhs are angry that the 'Khalkha Mongols' stole Chinggis from them. Meanwhile, there are those people (Chinese, Russian or otherwise) who think Chinggis was a bloodthirsy monster whom nobody should want to be associated with or descended from.

But it looks like ultimately, the debate here is coming down to whether the Mongols of Chinggis Khan's time spoke a Turkic or Mongol language. I have heard that there are many similarities and mutual borrowings between these two language families, which is why they were both classified as Altaic. I am not familiar with either language, so can you tell me how we can be sure of the difference?

[Akskl]

http://www.uglychine...g/mongolian.htm

"... The truth, however, is that the word 'Mongols' was adopted and sanctified by Khubilai, much later than the Mongols knew about this name. Before this name change, the Mongols called themselves 'Tartars', in fact..."

"...Chinese sources tried to trace the origin of the word 'Mongol', and it had located a tribe called 'Mengwu', said to be a Shiwei tribe of the Tang Period prior to AD 907. This name would later become Moghul in Turkic and Mughal in Persian..."

http://www.uscolo.ed...minar/sauma.htm

"Bar Sauma
Brief Biography: Bar Sauma, born in Tai-tu (Northern China) about 1260, was a descendant of the Onggud Turks who joined the Mongols early in the reign of Chinggis Khan. Like other Onggud Turks, his family were members of the Nestorian church, the most active Christian church in Central Asia. By the age of twenty-five, Sauma had taken vows to become a Nestorian monk and built a cell to meditate in isolation. Able to read Syraic, Turkic, and possibly Chinese, he was well-educated as well as pious..."

Text based on Budge, E.A. Wallis. The Monk of Kublai Khan, Emperor of China; or The History of the Life and Travels of Rabban Sawma, Envoy and Plenipotentiary of the Mongol Khans to the Kings of Europe and Markos who as Yahbh-Allaha III Became Patriarch of the Nestorian Church in Asia. London: The Religious Track Society, 1928.

"...Able to read Syraic, Turkic, and possibly Chinese, he was well-educated as well as pious..."

Where is the Mongol language?! "The Monk of Kublai Khan" did not know the Mongol language, because he and all "the Mongols" were Turks! BTW - the so called "Ongguds" or "Onguts" are Kazakh Waqs (or Uaks) of Middle Horde (Orta Juz) today.

http://www.uscolo.ed...minar/sauma.htm

YAHBH-ALLAHA ELECTED PATRIARCH

"...The reason for his election was this: The kings who held the steering poles of the government of the whole world were MUGLAYE (Mongols), and there was no man except MAR YAHBH-ALLAHA who was acquainted with their manners and customs, and their policy of government, and their language..."

He knew Turkic language and did not know Mongolian (in modern understanding). "MUGLAYE" and "mongols" are totally different words.


Rene Grousset "Empire of the Steppes - a History of Central Asia" Rutgers University Press, 6th paperback printing, 1999

p.194: "...The Jelair tribe, often ranked among the Mongols and bieleved to have been situated either south of the confluence of the Khilok and the Selenga or nearer to the Onon, may have been a TURKIC tribe reduced to vassalage and assimilated by the Mongols at the time of the legendary Mongol hero Qaidu..."

http://www.uglychine...g/mongolian.htm

Keraits
East of the Naimans, from the Orkhon in the west to the Onon and Kerulen rivers, was the new home of the Keraits. This is a group of people that had been disputed by Tao Zongyi to be Mongols, but Rashid ad-Din placed them in a subgroup with the Naimans, Uygurs, Kirghiz, Kipchaks and other Turkic peoples while acknowledging the resemblances between the Keraits and the Mongols. Still one more Chinese, Tu Ji, in his "History of the Mongols", assumed that the Keraits were Turkic and originated from Turkic Kangli and Ghuzz and their language was Turkic. It was also said that an important Kirghiz tribe bears the name of Kirai, which is equivalent to Kerait. As to their Mongol characteristics, Paul Ratchnevscky assumed that some Khitans were left behind and got assimiliated into the Keraits. Paul Ratchnevsky emphasized the amicableness between the Keraits and West Khitans as exemplified by the fact that Kerait's khan, Toghrul, had once sought refuge in Western Liao. Paul Ratchnevsky mentioned that the Keraits accepted Nestorian faith and that the grandfather and father of Toghrul had Latin names like Marghus (Markus) and Qurjaquz (Kyriakus).

The importance of Keraits would lie in the fact that Genghis Khan sought the protection under Toghrul and their alliance laid the foundation for the uprise of the Mongols. Toghrul enjoyed a title called Wang Khan conferred by the Jurchens and hence an alliance with Toghrul served the purpose of elelvating Genghis Khan's position among the nomads. After exterminating the Tartars in AD 1202, Genghis Khan broke with Toghrul's Keraits, and Genghis Kan killed Toghrul in AD 1203 and took over Kerait throne.


http://www.uglychine...g/mongolian.htm

Naimans
When the Kirghiz defeated the Uygurs in AD 840 and took over northern Mongolia, there was a group of people called the Naimans who remained in their homalands in the Altai Mountains and attached themselves to the Kirghiz. The Naimans is said to be a Mongol name for a group of the Turkic tribe called 'Sakiz Oghuz' or the Eight Oghuz, a name which existed in 8th century. (The authentic Oghuz Turks would find their way to Anatolia, separately.)

Gradually, the Naimans grew in strength and drove the Kirghiz to the River Yenesei and rooted the Keraits from their homeland on the Irtysch in the Altai and drove them towards Manchuria, hence indirectly causing the Khitans to move to northern China where they established the Liao Dynasty in AD 907-1125.

The Naiman federation adopted the script and the religion (buddhism) of their southern neighbor, the Uygurs, and maintained relations with the Kara-Khitai or Western Liao empire founded by Yeliu-taishi who fled to Turfan after Liao was defeated in Manchuria by the Jurchens. Though the Naimans are said to be of Turkic origin, their customs and habits had become Mongolized in a matter of hundreds of years. The Naimans later adopted Nestorian Christinanity, and were observed to be so by William of Rubruck in AD 1253 (see Paul Ratchnevsky). It will be through the Naimans that Genghis Khan adopted the Uigur script and became civilized. When Genghis Khan defeated the Naimans, Kuchlug, son of the Naiman Tayang-khan, sought refuge in Kara-Khitai and converted to Buddhism from Nestorian.

The reason Timuchin (Genghis Khan) had defeated the Naimans is mainly that the Naimans split into two groups, Tayang-khan (conferred Taiwang or great king by the Jurchens) and Buiruk-khan, and could not unite into a common front. The alliance of Genghis Khan and Toghrul (Keraits) first defeated Buiruk in AD 1199 (and killed him in AD 1207), and then defeated the Tayang-khan. Tayang-khan's Naimans, though allied with Merkits, Jadirats (whom Jumuka had steered away from the battlefield), Tartars, Katagin and Seljiuts, had lost the war to Timuchin (Genghis Khan), and died with all his soldiers. Genghis Khan took over Taya-khan's wife and subjugated his allies, Juirats, Katagins, Seljiuts, Tayichi'uts and Onggirats. The Merkits fled but were defeated again in AD 1204 and the whole tribe was taken over by Genghis Khan. Merkits' khan fled to Buiruk-khan's Naimans. Jumuka himself would be turned over by his own man and died in the hands of Genghis Khan's clan. In AD 1206, Timuchin (Genghis Khan) held a grand assembly and received the title as Genghis Khan.


Rene Grousset "Empire of the Steppes":

p.191 "The Kerayit people are usually considered as Turks. The legend of Mongol origins leaves no room for them, and it is hard to say whether the Kerayit were Mongols who had been strongly influenced by the Turks , or Turks, who were becoming Mongolized. In any event, many Kerayit titles were Turkic, and Togrul is a Turkic rather than a Mongol name"

p.xxiv (Introduction):
"...the Kerayit or Naimans, presumably Turkic, in the twelfth (century)..."

p.xxv
"...Nevertheless, history tells us that in Mongolia itself the Jenghis-Khanites mongolized many aparently Turkic tribes: the Naimans of the Altai, the Kerayits of the Gobi, and the Onguts of Chahar. Before the unification under Jenghis Khan which brought all these tribes under the Blue Mongols, part of present day Mongolia was Turkic; indeed even now a Turkic people, the Yakut, occupy northeastern Siberia, north of the Tungus, in Lene, Indigirka, and Kolyma basins. The presense of this Turkic group so near Bering Strait, north of the Mongols and even of the Tungus on the Arctic Ocean, neccesitates caution in attempts to determine the relative position of the "first" Turks, Mongols, and Tungus..."


Rene Grousset "Empire of the Steppes":

p.57 "The horde of the Tabgatch, or in Chinese Toba, probably of Turkic origin, had set camp around 260 in the extreme north of Shansi, north of the Great Wall."

p.60 "At the end of the third century A.D., as has been noted, the presumably Turkic Toba had established themselves in the extreme north of Shansi, in the Tatung region. Toba Kuei, an enterprising chief (386-409), brought good fortune to this horde by capturing from the Mu-jung of Hou-Yen first Tsinyang, our Taiyuan (396); then Chungshan, our Tingchow, south of Paoting (397); and lastly Ye, our Chanteh (Anyang, 398). He then adopted for his family the Chinese dynastic name of Wei and assigned to his horde a fixed capital, Pingcheng (Tai), east of Tatung. Thus constituted, the Toba kingdom of Wei included Shansi and Hopei as far as the Yellow river.
The Turkic China of the Toba was threatened by a fresh wave of barbarian invasion, that of the Ju-Juan or, as the Chinese transcribed the name in a disparaging pun, Jun-juan, meaning "the unpleasantly wriggling insects". These, according to liguists, were a truly Mongol horde like the old Hsien-pi, to whom some believe them to have been related."


Marco Polo and his father and uncles spoke to Kublay Khan in Turkic (or so-called by Europeans "Tartar") language.
The Venetians, who had trade with Turkic Crimea and Turkic Steppe on the Black Sea coast knew perfectly the Turkic language.

http://www.silk-road...marcopolo.shtml

"...The Great Khan, Mangu's brother, Kublai, was indeed hospitable. He had set up his court at Beijing, which was not a Mongol encampment but an impressive city built by Kublai as his new capital after the Mongols took over China in 1264 and established Yuan dynasty (1264-1368). Kublai asked them all about their part of the world, the Pope and the Roman church. Niccolo and Matteo, who spoke Turkic dialects perfectly, answered truthfully and clearly. The Polo brothers were well received in the Great Khan's capital. One year later, the Great Khan sent them on their way with a letter in Turki addressed to Pope Clement IV asking the Pope to send him 100 learned men to teach his people about Christianity and Western science. He also asked Pope to procure oil from the lamp at the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem..."

http://home.swipnet....i/kublen05.html

"...She also made sure that Khubilai would know how to read and write and hired a Uighur by the name of Tolochu to teach Khubilai to write and read Mongolian..."

Uighurs are Turks. How they could teach Khalkha-Mongolian?

"...Khubilai also recruited advisors that were not Chinese, for he welcomed those men that had the knowledge that could help him rule his domain in Hsing-chou. Just like his grandfather Khubilai had Uighur-Turkish advisors and officials, these were hired as military advisors, translators and interpreters.The Nestorian Christian, known as Christian Shiban, one of Khubilais ministers, and Mungzus, one of his most influential advisors and later even Khubilais brother in law, were two of Khubilais most distinguished Uighur advisors. Mongolian service men and Central-Asian Muslims were also drawn to Khubilais domains, therefore Khubilai had in the end of 1240 CE, some forty advisors which he could consult of the political and financial administration of his realm..."

http://frterry.org/H...Handout_118.htm

The first archbishop of Pekin
Letter from Khanbalik (Pekin) 8 January 1305 A.D.

"...I have learned the Tartar language and script reasonably well; that is, the language customarily used by the Mongols. I have translated the whole of the New Testament and the Psalter into this language..."

The Tartar means Turkic.

http://www.mongoliat...ue/4/airag.html

AIRAG, BEVERAGE OF HEALTH
Can you imagine United States without Coca Cola? As for Mongols the drink of choice is airag. This mild beverage made of fermented mare's milk has a slightly acid taste and great for treating thirst. The beverage makes one of main ingredients of the summer diet of Mongols

All mediaeval travellers mentioned "kumiss" (qymyz in Kazakh) - not Khankha-Mongolian "airag".

http://www.iras.ucal...lvia/Kumiss.htm

Kumiss

From The Mission of Friar William of Rubrick

His journey to the court of the Great Khan Mongke 1253-1255

Chapter IV: HOW THEY MAKE COMOS
(1) Comos - namely, mare's milk - is made in the following way. They stretch above the ground a long rope between two stakes stuck in the sod, and around the third hour [nine o'clock] tether to the rope the foals of the mares they intend to milk. Then the mares stand beside their foals and let themselves be milked peacefully. In the event of any of them proving intractable, one man takes the foal and puts it underneath her to let it suck a little, and then withdraws it while the milker takes its place.


Encyclopaedia Britannica

The creation of the Mongol empire by Genghis Khan was a great feat of political and military skill that left a lasting imprint on the destinies of both Asia and Europe. The geographic basis of Genghis' power, the northwestern parts of which later became known as Mongolia, had been the centre of such Turkic empires as those of the Turks and Uighurs. There are no indications of the time and the manner in which the Mongols took over this region.

This post has been edited by Akskl: 21 May 2006 - 11:10 PM

[Karakhan]

Yun, on May 22 2006, 03:43 AM, said:

It's rather interesting, isn't it? The Chinese say Chinggis Khan was a Chinese ruler (or at least the grandfather of a Chinese ruler), but the Mongols are angry about this. At the same time, the Kazakhs are angry that the 'Khalkha Mongols' stole Chinggis from them. Meanwhile, there are those people (Chinese, Russian or otherwise) who think Chinggis was a bloodthirsy monster whom nobody should want to be associated with or descended from.

But it looks like ultimately, the debate here is coming down to whether the Mongols of Chinggis Khan's time spoke a Turkic or Mongol language. I have heard that there are many similarities and mutual borrowings between these two language families, which is why they were both classified as Altaic. I am not familiar with either language, so can you tell me how we can be sure of the difference?

Seems like Chinggis Khan is becoming a subject of nationalistic conflict between a number of people. Everyone wants to claim descent from him.
In some Russian language boards, there's some tension between Yakuts and Buryats after the Yakuts made a movie about him.

To answer the question, he is neither Kazakh or Halh Mongol as neither group existed by that name until a few centuries later.

As for linguistic difference, there's alot of similarities, and alot of differences. For one thing, all Turkic languages except Yakut, do not have extended vowels like the Mongolic languages.. although I believe one of those Muslim Mongol minorities in China may also lack the extended vowels. To make matters confusing, some groups such as the Tyvans could easily pass as either Turkic or Mongol and generally accepted by both as their own.

[Yun]

Quote

Rene Grousset "Empire of the Steppes":

с.57 "The horde of the Tabgatch, or in Chinese Toba, probably of Turkic origin, had set camp around 260 in the extreme north of Shansi, north of the Great Wall."

с.60 "At the end of the third century A.D., as has been noted, the presumably Turkic Toba had established themselves in the extreme north of Shansi, in the Tatung region. Toba Kuei, an enterprising chief (386-409), brought good fortune to this horde by capturing from the Mu-jung of Hou-Yen first Tsinyang, our Taiyuan (396); then Chungshan, our Tingchow, south of Paoting (397); and lastly Ye, our Chanteh (Anyang, 398). He then adopted for his family the Chinese dynastic name of Wei and assigned to his horde a fixed capital, Pingcheng (Tai), east of Tatung. Thus constituted, the Toba kingdom of Wei included Shansi and Hopei as far as the Yellow river.
The Turkic China of the Toba was threatened by a fresh wave of barbarian invasion, that of the Ju-Juan or, as the Chinese transcribed the name in a disparaging pun, Jun-juan, meaning "the unpleasantly wriggling insects". These, according to liguists, were a truly Mongol horde like the old Hsien-pi, to whom some believe them to have been related."

The question of whether the Tuoba spoke a Turkic language is still being debated after decades. In ethnic terms they were identified as Xianbei (Hsien-pi), who are usually considered proto-Mongol, although it was also said the Tuoba had Xiongnu (who were presumably Turkic) ancestry on the maternal side. Grousset was too definite in saying the Tuoba were Turkic while the Rouran (Ju-Juan) were Mongols - the Tuoba seem to have been somewhere between Turkic and Mongol, and the Rouran were said in Chinese sources to be descended from escaped Tuoba slaves, rather than a different ethnicity (of course, this story could just have been invented for propaganda effect during the wars between the Tuoba and Rouran).

Furthermore, 'Xiongnu' and 'Xianbei' were broad labels used by confederations that were ethnically and linguistically very diverse in reality, since they included many conquered tribes.

Quote

The geographic basis of Genghis' power, the northwestern parts of which later became known as Mongolia, had been the centre of such Turkic empires as those of the Turks and Uighurs. There are no indications of the time and the manner in which the Mongols took over this region.

The Shiwei, whom the Chinese believe the Mongols were descended from, were identified as being related to the Xianbei and the Khitan. The Shiwei were living around the area of the Amur River and the Greater Khingan Mountains from around the 5th century AD, and were still there in the 11th century. But by the 11th century there was also a tribe called the Menggu living in the northeastern part of present-day Mongolia. The Chinese theory is that a Shiwei tribe called the Mengwu migrated westwards onto the steppe. But it is also known that in the 10th and 11th centuries, after the collapse of the Uyghur kaghanate, the steppe was divided between tribes called the Dadan, or Tatars. The question is whether the Mongols were actually a Tatar tribe, rather than a Shiwei tribe. If descended from the Tatars, it would have been more likely for their language to be Turkic.

[Zorigo]

Akskl, on May 21 2006, 10:29 PM, said:

"Kazakhs did not exist in 12-13 centuries".
Oh, yes, Kazakh did not have any ancestors, they came from Moon! LOL
What about the Khalkha-Mongols? Did they exist in 12-13 centuries? No, they didn't,

Khalkh Mongols did not fall from the moon too.

I already posted about khalkhas , I again copy that here, for your knowledge.

Quote

I agree with you on Chinggis Khaan was not Khalkh Mongol.
- Nobody claimed that Chinggis khaan was Khalkha Mongol.

The term "Khalkha Mongol" is appeared late in XV century.
Instead better say, Khalkha Mongol kings were descendant of Chingiss Khaan line.

In year 1466, After death of Manduul Khaan, Batmunh Dayan Khaan son Manduukh Jonon, become Khaan of All Mongols at age of 7. Due his young age, Ismail taishi Tugtimur yonger brother of Bekersin ? muslim Uigur who installed Manduul as Khaan, was governing Mongols together with queen Mandukhai.
When he reach to right age,in 1483 Batmunkh Dayan Khaan removed Ismail taishi Tugstimur. He reigned till he was 44. He united all Mongolia except Oirad Mongols

But he divided Mongolia to his sons, North Mongolia (later termed aas Outer Mongolia) was given to Gersenz, South Mongolia (later named as inner Mongolia) was given to Achbolod.

- Gersenz Khaan divided Northern Mongolia to his 7 sons. From this moment Khalkha 7 county was created. Khalkha was not ethnic name- It means in Mongolian language "shield" -"protection" -"cover" -"defender"



The Khalkhas are the largest group of Mongols in Mongolia. In fact, they are the core of all the Mongol peoples across North Asia. The Khalkha Mongol consider themselves the direct descendants of Genghis Khan and, therefore, the true preservers and defenders of Mongol independance and Mongol culture.

Khalkha can not be considered as ethnic group or clan. Initially it was organized purpose adminisitrative like person from New York city mya considered as New Yorker.

Quote

but this fact did not stop them from monopolizing all Genghis Khan's heritage, inspite of tons of obvious facts. The so-called "Turco-Mongols" were kind of Kazakhs, because they all spoke Turkic language - not Khalkha-Mongolian one or something like that. The Turko-Mongols and Kazakhs had same everithing - language, territory, customs, way of life, culture, religion, food, drinks (koumiss - not airag), heroic eposes, legends, customs of proclaiming Khans, etc.

Modern Day Mongols did not just claim or monopolize everything just to be called as direct descendants of Genghis Khan. It is history. They might be descended from Huns, Sianbi, Jujan. Turkic and Kidan.

Kazakhs are descended from Kypchak, Turco and Mongol tribes.
Life style of Mongols and Kazakhs basically same. Religious and language difference makes them separate.
Many Kazakhs look like Mongol --for example Nazarbayev .


As any other languages , Mongolian language has its own evolutional changes. Just like english:- English is a West Germanic language. But Germans and English don't understand each other.
Even English is idivided into period of Proto, Old, Middle, and Historic Modern english. Modern enlgish speakers could not understand old English. But still it is english language.

Quote

TheTurkic nomads lived for many centuries between Europe and Asia, that's why they have mixed racial type. Arabs live between Europe and Africa, and also have mixed racial type, but nobody calls Arabs with dark skin from Sudan or Mauritania "Arabo-Negroes" for example.
The Secret History survived written in Chinese hieroglyphs, and phonetically can be read in many different ways depending which of Chinese dialects is used. Language of the Secret History is closer to Turkic language than to Khakha-Mongolian one (read for example Rassadin - Russian historian). Naimans, Kereits, Jalaits, Qongyrats were Turkic speaking peoples. This was asserted by many Russian, Soviet and Western historians like I.Berezin, Veselovskiy, L.Viktorova, Paul Ratchnevsky, Leo de Rachewiltz, Rene Grousset, J.J.Saunders and many others.

Why don't you put Turkic version of SHM, then Mongolian version of it. Compare it. Maybe 800 years ago , language was similar who knows. I doubt. It could good study for you to prove your idea. First You should read SECRET HISTORY OF MONGOLS .throughly

You mentioned so scholars names to back your long rant. None of them were against Mongolian language development, ancient language and modern language differs a lot. But understanable.

This post has been edited by Zorigo: 21 May 2006 - 11:55 PM

[Zorigo]

Quote

Kazakh Ablay khan, who himself was a descendant of Jochi khan. His paternal bloodline comes from the youngest son of Jochi, but his maternal lineage is Turkic. He considered himself a Kazakh.
Jochi is the Son of Chinggis Khan. Also Tsagadai is founder Mongol Kingdoms in present day Kazakhstan

So Kazakhs are descendant of Zochi and Tsagadai, who are son of Chinggis Khaan. So they can be Chinggiside too. Mongols also same Mongol kings were descended from Tolui and Ogedai. Most of them from Tolui.

3-D forensic reconstruction of Ablay (his remains were exhumed, as well as Tamerlans' for forensic
analysis)