14 replies to this topic

[Yun]

Yihesan mentioned that the Toquz Oghuz belong to a people called the Tiele 铁勒. This ethnic group is also called the Chi'le 敕勒, the Gaoche 高车, or the Dingling 丁零 in Chinese sources, and it's been theorised that the original form of the word was Teleg. The Tiele were an important component in the armies of the Northern Dynasties during the Age of Fragmentation, and there's a famous song called the Song of the Chi'le 敕勒歌 that's been passed down to today as a classic depiction of the majestic landscape of the steppe. It was supposedly sung by a Tiele general named Hulu Jin 斛律金 in 546, although it probably wasn't written by him:

敕勒川 The Chi'le River

阴山下 At the foot of Yinshan

天如穹庐，笼盖四野 Where the sky, like a tent, envelopes the plain

天苍苍 There the sky is boundless

野茫茫 And the plains are vast

风吹草低见牛羊 When the wind blows, the grass bends to reveal great herds and flocks

Yihesan, I seem to recall you mentioning somewhere on AE that the Tiele were the real ancestors of the modern Turks. Is that because of the connection with the Toquz Oghuz? And are the Tiele descended from the Xiongnu?

[General_Zhaoyun]

I read that the Tujue originated from Tiele. Tiele is supposingly referring to all the turkic people that dwelled in Mongolia steppe, which include Tujue, Ughurs, Gao Chang, DingLing etc.

[Yihesan]

Yihesan mentioned that the Toquz Oghuz belong to a people called the Tiele 铁勒.

Yes, the Toquz Oghuz were formed after Qimin Qaghan killed the leaders of some Tiele peoples.

Oh, I know the poem you posted, my teacher once translated it to us B)

Yihesan, I seem to recall you mentioning somewhere on AE that the Tiele were the real ancestors of the modern Turks. Is that because of the connection with the Toquz Oghuz?

Yes, the Oghuz people of 9th-11th centuries probably came from the Toquz Oghuz peoples of 7th-8th centuries. The Oghuz were the ancestors of Turkic peoples living in Eastern Europe, Middle East and Southwestern Turkistan.

And are the Tiele descended from the Xiongnu?

The Dinglin were one of the subjects of Xiongnu; so yes, they were Xiongnu, but only in political sense. Ethnicially, they were the "cousins" of them.

Actually, the Gaoche-Tiele come from the Eastern Dinglin. The Western Dinglin probably evolved into the Oghurs from whom the Bulgar Alliance was later created.

I read that the Tujue originated from Tiele.

The origins of Tujue are unclear, even the same sourcas say different things, there are many theories and myths about it. But I think the Tujue were not originally Tiele, like the Xiongnu, they were their "cousins".

Tiele is supposingly referring to all the turkic people that dwelled in Mongolia steppe, which include Tujue, Ughurs, Gao Chang, DingLing etc.

Tiele's useage changed in time. During the Sui Dynasty, it was used for all the peoples (Turkic and Non-Turkic) living from Mongolia to Eastern Europe. But in earlier times, it was used for the Turkic peoples that descended from the Dinglin-Gaoche.

Btw; is it true that the Dinglin were the descendents of Chidi (Red Di)?

[Yun]

Well, the Wei Shu (History of the Northern Wei dynasty) says that the Gaoche are "probably the descendants of the ancient Chidi (盖古赤狄之余种也)", but gives no evidence to support this. Since Di 狄 is itself a nebulous term, used in the beginnings of Chinese history to describe any number of "barbarian" peoples living in the far north, I'm inclined to believe that the Wei Shu is just speculating.

However, the Wei Shu does have some other interesting information on the Gaoche/Tiele. Their language is said to be roughly similar to that of the Xiongnu, but with slight differences, and it is suggested that this is because they are descended from a Xiongnu mother (see the origin myth in the next paragraph). They are described as having no organised army or formations, using hit-and-run cavalry tactics and avoiding pitched battles.

Like the Turuk (Tujue), the Gaoche had an origin myth that traces their ancestry to a union between a human being and a wolf. In the Tujue myth, a crippled man mated with a she-wolf who had taken care of him, and she gave birth to the ancestors of the Tujue. In the Gaoche myth, a Xiongnu Chanyu had two daughters who were so beautiful that they were regarded as divine. The Chanyu thus decided that they were worthy only to be married to Heaven Himself. He brought them to an uninhabited place to the far north of the Xiongnu lands and placed them on a pedestal, announcing to Heaven that He could come and claim his wives. After three years, the daughters were still there, and the Chanyu's wife wanted to fetch them back. But the Chanyu stopped her, saying the time was not yet up. After one more year, an old wolf came to howl at the pedestal every night, and built a den in the pedestal's base. The younger daughter felt that the wolf might be a divine creature and decided to mate with him. Her elder sister pleaded with her not to dishonour her parents by having relations with an animal, but she could not be dissuaded and went with the wolf. Her sons became the Gaoche people, and they had the custom of howling like wolves.

[Yihesan]

Well, the Wei Shu (History of the Northern Wei dynasty) says that the Gaoche are "probably the descendants of the ancient Chidi (盖古赤狄之余种也)", but gives no evidence to support this. Since Di 狄 is itself a nebulous term, used in the beginnings of Chinese history to describe any number of "barbarian" peoples living in the far north, I'm inclined to believe that the Wei Shu is just speculating.

But Beishi also talks about the connections between Chide and Gaoche :blink:

It's clear that the Gaoche evolved from Dinglin... What do the Chinese sources say about the origins of Dinglin? Do they also connect them to Chidi?

[Yun]

Well, the Bei Shi is a later work based on material from the Wei Shu ;)

In the Chinese sources, Dingling and Gaoche are described as merely alternate names for those Tiele/Chi'le who have migrated southwards into Chinese territory. However, the Wei Shu states that the original name of the Tiele was 'Dili'. Tiele and Dingling may both be variations of that name.

BTW, the correct pronunciation of the Chinese term is 'Dingling', not 'Dinglin'. Just a minor niggle.

[Yihesan]

BTW, the correct pronunciation of the Chinese term is 'Dingling', not 'Dinglin'. Just a minor niggle.

I've seen both Dingling and Dinglin, but I later saw that Dinglin was more accurate.

Am I wrong?

[Yun]

Well, if you're talking about the modern pronunciation of the character 零, it's 'ling'. But in terms of how it would have been pronounced back then, I have no idea. Chinese pronunciations have changed a great deal, especially in the north.

[Yihesan]

Well, my teacher Dr. Ekrem (whose native language is Mandarin Chinese) seems to be using both IIRC :unsure: Maybe I should ask this to him in detail (if I won't forget).

[General_Zhaoyun]

I'll post some info about Tiele when I get back to Singapore 1 1/2 weeks later. I've got some detail info about Tiele in chinese history book.. would be glad if I can share it.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Here are some short history about the Tiele (铁勒), which is a generic term that the chinese used refer to all the ancient turkic people in the north before 600 AD.

History of Tiele

Before 600 AD, in northern Mongolia and Western Region (today's Xinjiang/Chinese Turkestan), dwelled many minorities nomadic people called "Tiele" people. The ancestors of the Tiele can be traced to the Dingling (丁零) of Qin and Han dynasty. During the Age of Fragmentation (Wei-Jin North-South dynasities period), the northern people of China called Dingling as "Tiele" or "Chi'le (敕勒)", while the southern han-chinese called them "Gaoche (高车)", because they liked to ride tall wheeled wagons, which happens to be called "Gaoche" in chinese.

During Northern Wei period (Northern Dynasties), the Tiele's nomadic activities reached Lake Baikal in the east, and the Altai mountains/Tarim Basin in the west.

Around 420 AD, the Emperor Tuoba Tao (拓跋焘) of the Northern Wei unified North China, including unifying various tribes of the Tiele. He had 100,000 Tiele people moved from eastern part of Lake Baikal to inner Mongolia. From then on, Inner Mongolia (the steppe) became the graziing grounds of the Tiele.

The Tiele called the Inner Mongolia region the "Chi'le River" (敕勒川). After years of hard work, this region became lively and there was a folk song called "Song of the Chi'le" 敕勒歌 that's been passed down to today as a classic depiction of the majestic landscape of the steppe:

敕勒川 The Chi'le River

阴山下 At the foot of the Yinshan mountains

天如穹庐，笼盖四野 Where the sky, like a tent, envelopes the plain

天苍苍 There the sky is boundless

野茫茫 And the plains are vast

风吹草低见牛羊 When the wind blows, the grass bends to reveal great herds and flocks

From this song, one can visualise the nomadic lifestyle of the Tiele people.

Towards the Sui/Tang period, the various tribes of the Tiele people established various steppe empires across Mongolia such as the Xueyantuo (薛延陀） Empire and Uighur (回纥） Empire. Steppe empires are called Hanguo (汗国） or Khanate in chinese. They were all conquered by the Tujue ("Turks") in 552 AD.

[Yihesan]

Indeed, the names Dili, Dingling, Chile and Tiele all look related :)

[Yun]

I'm a bit doubtful about the supposed origin of the name "Gaoche" though... is it normal for nomadic people to ride wheeled wagons? I would think that the Han Chinese did that much more than the nomads did.

[Yihesan]

Yes, the Gaoche really rode wagons (like the Scythians), I have read many Chinese accounts of Gaoche riding them :)

[General_Zhaoyun]

Yun, thanks for correcting the English translation of "Song of the Chi'le"( 敕勒歌) for me.

I think the Gaoche is correct, they do ride high-wheel wagons.