[hky4eva~]

Given that Northen Song was much more populous, advanced and prosperous to both Liao and Jin, why couldn't it reclaim the Liaodong peninsula and why couldn't it withstand the Jin? Did the Song use 'modern' weapons in the millitary? I have heard that they had missiles and rockets. With that sort of technology, why weren't the Song victorious?

[Zorigo]

hky4eva~, on May 20 2006, 10:51 PM, said:

Given that Northen Song was much more populous, advanced and prosperous to both Liao and Jin, why couldn't it reclaim the Liaodong peninsula and why couldn't it withstand the Jin? Did the Song use 'modern' weapons in the millitary? I have heard that they had missiles and rockets. With that sort of technology, why weren't the Song victorious?

Because of their culture was for cowards.
I heard a chinese proverbs meanin is something like following ( i don't know exact translation)
- If your head is higher over growds, sooner or later it will be chopped
- If you raise your head over people , it will be chopped sooner or later

If Nord Song had this kind of mentality, no wonder they lost even they possess most advanced weapons at the time.

victory was won by people , not by equipment

This post has been edited by Zorigo: 21 May 2006 - 01:46 AM

[Miltiades]

Zorigo, your answer is far too simplistic. Judging an entire culture (especially one as vast as that of zhongguo) by a single proverb is ludicrous.

The Chinese have had periods of history in which they have conquered huge areas from tough peoples - I'm not glorifying war, but as a people they are certainly not cowards.

Besides, the proverb you quote simply shows a piece of wisdom; it says that if you rise above others (especially if you do so arrogantly) you will often incur the jealousy and envy of others.

The ancient Greeks had a similar saying, and they were one of the most warlike peoples in history.

M

[Miltiades]

As to Song military weakness at this time (a complex question), someone more knowledgable than I on the subject will provide a better answer, but I believe that it was a time when civil government and the arts were prioritised over the military (part of the Neo-Confucianism that blossomed at the time).

The Jurchens and Song were first allied vs the Liao, but the government so mismanaged the alliance, and the generals the battles, that the Jurchen turned against their erstwhile allies.

The emperor of the time, Huizong, was weak and controlled by grasping ministers who plundered the country. The people and the government became enemies - the Mandate of Heaven was lost. The sudden rise of the Jurchens would have been difficult for any dynsaty or ruler to deal with, for they were a virile and mighty people, but a corrupt and weak government stood no chance - despite the courage of their soldiers and their technological prowess.

[Centaur]

hky4eva~, on May 21 2006, 11:51 AM, said:

Given that Northen Song was much more populous, advanced and prosperous to both Liao and Jin, why couldn't it reclaim the Liaodong peninsula and why couldn't it withstand the Jin? Did the Song use 'modern' weapons in the millitary? I have heard that they had missiles and rockets. With that sort of technology, why weren't the Song victorious?

Hope the following could answer your question:

Perhaps what should be looked upon would be the following:
1. The State Philiosphy - Confuciansim
2. The capability of the Emperor Renzong
3. The general preparedness of the Sung people at that time.

To answer 1:
While being one of the most technologically and culturally advanced people in the world at the time, the Song were not militarily powerful. Part of the reason for this may be because Confucianism held military in very low regard. Confucianism did not recognize the military as being part of the four official classes of occupations; therefore, the military consisted of either the poor, uneducated peasants, mercenaries or allies. Diplomacy was the favored form of dealing with enemies. This prolonged period of paying tribute to enemies, rather than being militarily strong enough to defeat them, left the Song susceptible to attack from others. This weakness allowed for two non-Chinese kingdoms to exist to the north of the Song. They were the Liao and the Western Xia. All three of these kingdoms favored diplomacy over military aggression. Thus by 1125 A.D., a group called the Jin were able to conquer the Liao and the Song, along with part of the territory of the Western Xia. A brother of the Song emperor fled south, and declared himself emperor. His dynasty is generally known as the Southern Song.

source: http://www.mnsu.edu/...china/song.html

To answer 2:

The emperor at the time was Renzong. He indulged himself with women and neglects the country.

When Song Emperor Renzong's health deteriorated as a result of indulging in sex with two concubines, Dowager Empress Yang Taihou forcefully ordered that the two concubines be driven out of the palace. Yang Taihou selected the daughter of late qu mi shi Cao Bin as Empress Caohou. Because Renzong was weak physically and failed to bear offspring, Yang Taihou selected late Emperor Taizong's 4-year-old grandson as the adopted son, and this person would be the later Emperor Yingzong

source: http://www.uglychinese.org/song.htm

To answer 3:

The later Northern Sung era saw a flowering of the arts, as famous poets and artists like Su Dongpo and Wang Anshi himself left behind great pieces for the world to admire. Culture reached and surpassed the level reached by the Tang, with new styles of pottery and drawing.

Wang Anshi became prime minister in 1069. He instituted reforms designed to help the common people, including land reforms, but these were opposed by the upper classes, who forced his resignation in 1076. A period of relative peace and prosperity followed. Gunpowder was used in war for the first time, usually only to frighten the horses of the enemy, and an accurate mechanical clock was said to have been built in Kaifeng.

Source: http://www.allempire...he_Song_Dynasty

The Sung people had been used to peace and prosperity for sometime. The idea of war became a very unhappy alternative.

[Yasis]

Quote

The Jurchens and Song were first allied vs the Liao, but the government so mismanaged the alliance, and the generals the battles, that the Jurchen turned against their erstwhile allies.

Or was it a deliberate c**k up in the battlefield? Song knew that after Liao was defeated and removed as a threat, the Jurchen-Song alliance would soon end and rivalry and competition would start again. Song generals thus deliberately screwed up key battles in order to preserve Liao as a distraction to the Jurchens so that Song can watch on the sidelines while the two barbarian tribes finished each other off. After the two sides have exhausted themselves in war, Song can enter the war at a decisive moment and wipe out all of the barbarian tribes at a single stroke.

The Jurchens however detected Song's real agenda and turned against their "allies".

Is there evidence for this theory?

[hky4eva~]

Yasis, on May 22 2006, 12:48 AM, said:

Or was it a deliberate c**k up in the battlefield? Song knew that after Liao was defeated and removed as a threat, the Jurchen-Song alliance would soon end and rivalry and competition would start again. Song generals thus deliberately screwed up key battles in order to preserve Liao as a distraction to the Jurchens so that Song can watch on the sidelines while the two barbarian tribes finished each other off. After the two sides have exhausted themselves in war, Song can enter the war at a decisive moment and wipe out all of the barbarian tribes at a single stroke.

The Jurchens however detected Song's real agenda and turned against their "allies".

Is there evidence for this theory?

I don't think that would happen as Song did launch attacks at Liao, and the Song army suffered heavy causualties.

[hky4eva~]

Centuar, on May 21 2006, 07:57 PM, said:

Hope the following could answer your question:

Perhaps what should be looked upon would be the following:
1. The State Philiosphy - Confuciansim
2. The capability of the Emperor Renzong
3. The general preparedness of the Sung people at that time.

To answer 1:
While being one of the most technologically and culturally advanced people in the world at the time, the Song were not militarily powerful. Part of the reason for this may be because Confucianism held military in very low regard. Confucianism did not recognize the military as being part of the four official classes of occupations; therefore, the military consisted of either the poor, uneducated peasants, mercenaries or allies. Diplomacy was the favored form of dealing with enemies. This prolonged period of paying tribute to enemies, rather than being militarily strong enough to defeat them, left the Song susceptible to attack from others. This weakness allowed for two non-Chinese kingdoms to exist to the north of the Song. They were the Liao and the Western Xia. All three of these kingdoms favored diplomacy over military aggression. Thus by 1125 A.D., a group called the Jin were able to conquer the Liao and the Song, along with part of the territory of the Western Xia. A brother of the Song emperor fled south, and declared himself emperor. His dynasty is generally known as the Southern Song.

source: http://www.mnsu.edu/...china/song.html

To answer 2:

The emperor at the time was Renzong. He indulged himself with women and neglects the country.

When Song Emperor Renzong's health deteriorated as a result of indulging in sex with two concubines, Dowager Empress Yang Taihou forcefully ordered that the two concubines be driven out of the palace. Yang Taihou selected the daughter of late qu mi shi Cao Bin as Empress Caohou. Because Renzong was weak physically and failed to bear offspring, Yang Taihou selected late Emperor Taizong's 4-year-old grandson as the adopted son, and this person would be the later Emperor Yingzong

source: http://www.uglychinese.org/song.htm

To answer 3:

The later Northern Sung era saw a flowering of the arts, as famous poets and artists like Su Dongpo and Wang Anshi himself left behind great pieces for the world to admire. Culture reached and surpassed the level reached by the Tang, with new styles of pottery and drawing.

Wang Anshi became prime minister in 1069. He instituted reforms designed to help the common people, including land reforms, but these were opposed by the upper classes, who forced his resignation in 1076. A period of relative peace and prosperity followed. Gunpowder was used in war for the first time, usually only to frighten the horses of the enemy, and an accurate mechanical clock was said to have been built in Kaifeng.

Source: http://www.allempire...he_Song_Dynasty

The Sung people had been used to peace and prosperity for sometime. The idea of war became a very unhappy alternative.

However, Ive read that the Song government spent huge funds on the millitary. What was the Song army made up of? Crossbosmen? Do you know any weapons they used against the Liao/Jin?

[snowybeagle]

hky4eva~, on May 21 2006, 11:51 AM, said:

Given that Northen Song was much more populous, advanced and prosperous to both Liao and Jin, why couldn't it reclaim the Liaodong peninsula and why couldn't it withstand the Jin? Did the Song use 'modern' weapons in the millitary? I have heard that they had missiles and rockets. With that sort of technology, why weren't the Song victorious?

You need to understand the whole picture better by looking at the unification process which ended the era of Five Dynasties.

In the process of conquest of the Ten Kingdoms and the regimes in the north, the Song utilised much resources.

Decades of wars from the Five Dynasties also depopulated many areas, including those in the northern states such as Northern Han. At the beginning of the Northern Song era, there was much rebuilding to do.

In the meantime, the Liao Dynasty founded by the Khitans had several brilliant rulers, including one Empress Dowager Xiao. They made their state strong while the Song was in the process of unifying the Central Plains.

The military doctrine and institution adopted by the Song was another factor.

Fearful of generals going out of control, the second Song Emperor who oversaw the conquest of Northern Han, the state which stood between Song and Liao, micromanaged the military expeditions.

Prior to despatching generals to fight against the Khitans, Emperor Taizong drew up precise battle-plans which the generals had to follow - they would punished for disobedience rather than failure.

The Song put the military under numerous restrictions to the extent that their effectivess were compromised, regardless of the weapons used.

After several failed expeditions against the Liao, the Song court basically gave up and focussed on rebuilding the economy. Subsequent rulers found it more assuring to maintain friendly relationships with the Liao rather than seek to conquer it.

As for the conquest of Northern Song by the Jin, Emperor Huizong played a large role in weakening his own state.

[Miltiades]

The Song army of the time was a nicely balanced one.

Crossbows were highly thought of and used in seperate units (bows were also used) - other infantry used spears or polearms of varying kinds, often without shields.

Cavalry were never in great numbers, due to lack of horses, but armies were large by Tang standards. Cavalry were usuall armed with both mellee weapons and bows.

Due to Neo-Confucianism and the scaling down of the military from the time of the founder, Chao K'unag-yin, onward ("chung wen ch'ing-wu"), discipline in most units was not good (some units turned to banditry or rebelled against their officers). However, the Chin-chun (palace guard) and Sheng-ch'uan were well-trained.

The Song used crossbow snipers, burning oxen, firelances and several kinds of 'artillery' including stone-throwers (some throwing explosive bombs), and in sieges even indirect fire with 'spotters'.

[hky4eva~]

Miltiades, on May 22 2006, 05:32 AM, said:

The Song army of the time was a nicely balanced one.

Crossbows were highly thought of and used in seperate units (bows were also used) - other infantry used spears or polearms of varying kinds, often without shields.

Cavalry were never in great numbers, due to lack of horses, but armies were large by Tang standards. Cavalry were usuall armed with both mellee weapons and bows.

Due to Neo-Confucianism and the scaling down of the military from the time of the founder, Chao K'unag-yin, onward ("chung wen ch'ing-wu"), discipline in most units was not good (some units turned to banditry or rebelled against their officers). However, the Chin-chun (palace guard) and Sheng-ch'uan were well-trained.

The Song used crossbow snipers, burning oxen, firelances and several kinds of 'artillery' including stone-throwers (some throwing explosive bombs), and in sieges even indirect fire with 'spotters'.

I'm thinking that the Song would of had a better chance if they concentrated on crossbows and missile units on a large scale as they would of had a technological advantage on this compared to Liao/Jin. They would be disadvantaged with infantry when they face the hordes of cavalry from Liao/Jin. Their cavalry certainly wouldn't match the Liao/Jin ones as they had a lost pasture land (to XiXia) therefore lacked horses. Also, they definitely were not as experienced with cavalry as the Liao/Jin.

Do you know some websites on Song millitary?

[Yongwoni GOD]

I think it's mainly because of the government. The government during the Song was weak and corrupted.

[tadamson]

Yongwoni GOD, on May 23 2006, 10:32 AM, said:

I think it's mainly because of the government. The government during the Song was weak and corrupted.

I would agree,

Later, in the supposidly weaker Southern Song army, everal Song generals tranferred their loyalty from the Song (often a very weak link) to the Mongols. These troops then performed well for the Yuan state. In the Jin-Liao war, strong Song generals always faced the potential of being removed and killed because they were a potential threat to the Emperor, yet the occasional strong leader did fight well (for short periods).

On a tactical scale, Song cavalry never achieved the consistancy of Liao or Jin troops this led to moral problems and eventual defeat.