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What is Great Khan called? Khan of Khans Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   karen

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Posted 20 June 2006 - 04:05 AM

Hi everyone, I am new here, very nice site

What are all the titles that represents Khan of Khans or Great Khan.

Please, pronouce it exactly.

Thanks.
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#2 User is offline   General_Zhaoyun

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Posted 20 June 2006 - 08:43 PM

Are you referring to chinese titles?
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"夫君子之行：静以修身，俭以养德；非淡泊无以明志，非宁静无以致远。" - 诸葛亮

One should seek serenity to cultivate the body, thriftiness to cultivate the morals. Seeking fame and wealth will not lead to noble ideal. Only by seeking serenity will one reach far. - Zhugeliang
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#3 User is offline   karen

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 12:33 AM

View PostGeneral_Zhaoyun, on Jun 20 2006, 07:43 PM, said:

Are you referring to chinese titles?



Dear General,

I am referring to the Chinese and the Non-Chinese Titles.

Thanks.
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#4 User is offline   WangEnlai

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 12:47 AM

Welcome to CHF, Karen ^_^
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#5 User is offline   General_Zhaoyun

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 01:08 AM

For Li Shimin (Emperor Taizong), his "Khan of Khan" title is called 'Tian Kehan 天可汗" (the great heavenly Khan)
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"夫君子之行：静以修身，俭以养德；非淡泊无以明志，非宁静无以致远。" - 诸葛亮

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#6 User is offline   lifezard

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 01:17 AM

View PostGeneral_Zhaoyun, on Jun 21 2006, 02:08 PM, said:

For Li Shimin (Emperor Taizong), his "Khan of Khan" title is called 'Tian Kehan 天可汗" (the great heavenly Khan)


I thought 可汗 should be translated as Khagan? :huh:

Anyone can explain the difference between Khan and Khagan?
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#7 User is offline   General_Zhaoyun

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 01:26 AM

View Postlifezard, on Jun 21 2006, 02:17 PM, said:

I thought 可汗 should be translated as Khagan? :huh:

Anyone can explain the difference between Khan and Khagan?


There was an explanation by Yun at
http://www.chinahist...dpost&p=4812342


Khan is not a Mongol surname. It is a title used by the ruler, like 'king' in England. The difference is that in England and elsewhere, there are many people with the surname 'king', even though they are not descended from kings.

'Khan' was not even a word originating from the Mongols. It was used in the form 'Kaghan' by rulers of the Xianbei, Rouran, Avars, Khazars, Jurchens and various Turk groups (including the Uyghurs and Kyrgyz). The Bulgars also borrowed it from the Avars. In the same way, the Mongols borrowed the title from earlier Turk groups on the steppe. See http://encyclopedia....ionary.com/Khan
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"夫君子之行：静以修身，俭以养德；非淡泊无以明志，非宁静无以致远。" - 诸葛亮

One should seek serenity to cultivate the body, thriftiness to cultivate the morals. Seeking fame and wealth will not lead to noble ideal. Only by seeking serenity will one reach far. - Zhugeliang
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#8 User is offline   Genghis_Khan

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Post icon  Posted 21 June 2006 - 03:23 AM

In Mandarin they called me Ke Han.

In non-chinese, they called me Khan, Kha gan and etc...

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#9 User is offline   Snafu

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 05:24 AM

Khagan was a much more grandiose title than khan. Khagans were usually the emperors of vast empires while khans were just tribal chieftains. Temujin became a khan very early in his career, long before he had any far-reaching power.

The kh in both words is pronounced more like a hard "H" than a "K". It's the kind of hard H you hear in languages like Arabic and Hebrew.
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#10 User is offline   nee

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Posted 22 June 2006 - 12:23 AM

Or "ch" (phonetically [x]) in German. Pronunciation is liek a forced or stronger "h" sound
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#11 User is offline   lifezard

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Posted 22 June 2006 - 12:54 AM

View Postnee, on Jun 22 2006, 01:23 PM, said:

Or "ch" (phonetically [x]) in German. Pronunciation is liek a forced or stronger "h" sound


The Arabic 'kh' is much stronger and more guttural than the German 'ch'. I used to stay over with a uni mate who was from Kuwait (his mum later became my god-mother) and the German 'ch' will never do for them, as it was, I never succeeded pronouncing a 'kh' that would satisfy them.... :D
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#12 User is offline   Yun

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Posted 22 June 2006 - 02:05 AM

Not many Chinese know this, but the proper tonal pronunciation for 可汗 should be Ke4 Han2, and not Ke3 Han4. The dictionary says so, although I have no idea why.

I'm moving this to Asian languages, since it relates to an Altaic term.
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#13 User is offline   qrasy

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Posted 22 June 2006 - 02:23 AM

View Postlifezard, on Jun 22 2006, 01:54 PM, said:

The Arabic 'kh' is much stronger and more guttural than the German 'ch'. I used to stay over with a uni mate who was from Kuwait (his mum later became my god-mother) and the German 'ch' will never do for them, as it was, I never succeeded pronouncing a 'kh' that would satisfy them.... :D

.... more "pressed", you mean? I think I can pronounce it :P (not similar to h anymore :P )
Btw, If I recall correctly I saw the term written as something like "Kaɣan", where ɣ is like Arabic 'gh'

View PostYun, on Jun 22 2006, 03:05 PM, said:

Not many Chinese know this, but the proper tonal pronunciation for 可汗 should be Ke4 Han2, and not Ke3 Han4. The dictionary says so, although I have no idea why.
I think that is just as strange as "單于". Chan2Yu2 not Dan1Yu2. (可汗 is a special case where only the tones are different).

Maybe originally there was a mistake in transcription, then without changing character the pronunciation is changed?
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#14 User is offline   Subotai

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Posted 22 June 2006 - 04:54 PM

In Turkey's Turkish it is changed to hakan, Ottoman sultans used that title too "Me the king of kings Khakhan of the Turks, emperor of the romans, etc"
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#15 User is offline   tongyan

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Posted 22 June 2006 - 05:11 PM

View Postqrasy, on Jun 22 2006, 02:23 AM, said:

.... more "pressed", you mean? I think I can pronounce it :P (not similar to h anymore :P )
Btw, If I recall correctly I saw the term written as something like "Kaɣan", where ɣ is like Arabic 'gh'

I think that is just as strange as "單于". Chan2Yu2 not Dan1Yu2. (可汗 is a special case where only the tones are different).

Maybe originally there was a mistake in transcription, then without changing character the pronunciation is changed?


i think in cantonese it is pronounced hak1 hon6, with the hak1 (克 or 剋 or 刻 ) corresponding with the mandarin ke4.
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