[Liang Jieming]

General_Zhaoyun, on Nov 3 2004, 09:36 AM, said:

The two main branches of Buddhism are Mahayana and Theravada. Mahayana is practised in China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan etc, while Theravada is practised in Sri Lanka, Thailand, Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia. The main differences are that Mahayana focused on enlightenment for the masses while Theravada focuses on enlightenment for personal (singles). The Bodhisattva is the role model in Mahayana buddhism while the Arahant is the role model in Theravad buddhism.

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Ah yes. Merci herr General.

Jieming

[Xeenslayer]

Actually, I think that nowadays Buddhism is often mixed up or even practiced together with Taoism. I'm a Buddhist myself, but not a complete devotee, unlike my mother. I just take Buddhism as my religion because of its teachings. In fact, true Buddhism isn't supposed to encourage you to worship Buddha, yet that's what a lot of people are doing. I think Taoist influence has come into play here. As a result, we're praying to all kinds of gods, even though we're supposed to be Buddhist. Bit odd... hard for me to explain properly. Maybe somebody can further elaborate on my point.

[jingliang]

Buddhism is mixed up possible b/c there is no formal teaching of its beliefs? unless christianity that is, where they can learn from church.

anyway what is the difference btw taoism and buddhism - both aim to end the cycle of reincarnation right?

[Xeenslayer]

They are different, that's for sure. It's just that I don't know much (if any) about Taoism. One thing I do know is that in Buddhism you shouldn't be praying to any god (maybe Buddha for some); but in Taoism, there are plenty of different gods for you to worship, and that's what a lot of people are doing now...

[General_Zhaoyun]

Xeenslayer, on Nov 7 2004, 04:02 PM, said:

They are different, that's for sure. It's just that I don't know much (if any) about Taoism. One thing I do know is that in Buddhism you shouldn't be praying to any god (maybe Buddha for some); but in Taoism, there are plenty of different gods for you to worship, and that's what a lot of people are doing now...

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Xeenslayer, most chinese practised chinese folks religion (which is mixed with buddhism, confucianism and taoism). In fact, today's chinese buddhism is pretty mixed with taoist stuffs. For e.g. Guanyu, a taoist deity, is now a "hu fa" (a protector) in Buddhism.

Chances are that if you're burning incense paper, this is actually a taoist practice instead of a buddhist one. Also, you will hear of taoist deities such as Dua Bei Gong 大伯公, Tu Di Gong 土地公, Guang Gong 关公, Jade emperor (玉皇大帝) etc. I remember worshipping them when I was young.

If you're also worshipping your ancestors (拜祖先) such as your deceased Grandparents, you're practising confucianism. Some chinese also worshipped Confucius.

Anyway, Buddhism is not about worshipping. You don't worship Buddha like a god, but you treat him as a teacher.

[MengTzu]

jingliang, on Nov 7 2004, 07:39 AM, said:

Buddhism is mixed up possible b/c there is no formal teaching of its beliefs? unless christianity that is, where they can learn from church.

anyway what is the difference btw taoism and buddhism - both aim to end the cycle of reincarnation right?

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Of course there are formal Buddhist teachings. The reason for mixing with Confucianism and Taoism has more to do with the lack of formal membership (not teaching) of all three branches (unless you're a cleric. I don't think it is typical to be simultaneously a Taoist priest and a Buddhist monk. But it's typical for a devotee to practice both religions.) The idea that religions are separated by very distinct lines wasn't prevalent in ancient East Asia. Neo-Confucians were the most ardent in opposing other religions, yet they too were incorporated Taoist and Buddhist concepts into Confucianism.

[TMPikachu]

Xeenslayer, on Nov 6 2004, 10:50 AM, said:

Actually, I think that nowadays Buddhism is often mixed up or even practiced together with Taoism. I'm a Buddhist myself, but not a complete devotee, unlike my mother. I just take Buddhism as my religion because of its teachings. In fact, true Buddhism isn't supposed to encourage you to worship Buddha, yet that's what a lot of people are doing. I think Taoist influence has come into play here. As a result, we're praying to all kinds of gods, even though we're supposed to be Buddhist. Bit odd... hard for me to explain properly. Maybe somebody can further elaborate on my point.

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Buddhism is flexible, it's not cast in stone. You can pray to whoever you want. It's not like you pray out of fear or ask Buddha to win the lottery, it's more like showing respect. I see prayer to Buddha as... showing respect to a great man. The ritual is also calming for me to do.

jingliang, on Nov 7 2004, 02:39 AM, said:

Buddhism is mixed up possible b/c there is no formal teaching of its beliefs? unless christianity that is, where they can learn from church.

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Buddhism is 'mixed up' because it doesn't need to be cast in stone. I personally find the way Buddhism is so unregemented to be more natural, and the factioning of Churches in the west to be really wierd. I think it's a more western concept to treat Religion like exclusive citizenships to governments.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Actually, Chinese religion has always tended towards syncretism, meaning combining the teaching and practices of various religion together. For this reason, it is found that most chinese practised buddhism, mixed with Taoist or confucianism.

[MengTzu]

General_Zhaoyun, on Dec 2 2004, 03:52 PM, said:

Actually, Chinese religion has always tended towards syncretism, meaning combining the teaching and practices of various religion together. For this reason, it is found that most chinese practised buddhism, mixed with Taoist or confucianism.

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Why is Buddhism the emphasis and Confucianism and Taoism the "wings?" Just messing here. I think a lot of Chinese do perceive Chinese folk religion that way -- that it's Buddhism mixed with Chinese native religions and philosophies. I think, though, reality is that you can't really say which one of the three schools of thought is central to Chinese folk religion. Some would argue it's Taoism, some would argue it's Buddhism. Now I dun think anyone would argue it's Confucianism because it's not really a religion so it's hard to imagine that it makes up the central aspect of Chinese folk religion, but then many people agree that every Chinese has a bit of Confucianist moral influence.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Meng Tzu, there are people in China who worship Confucius and in China, there are also Confucian temples, not to mention there are several such temples in Taiwan and Singapore. Now, these Confucian temples actually hold many religious rites and practices. So, Confucianism has actually become a religion itself.

Ancestry worship, a religious practice seen in Confucianism, is very much practised by chinese people, esp. the overseas chinese community. It was a way to foster filial piety as taught in Confucanism, but has somewhat been mixed into religious aspect in the form of ancestry worship.

Confucianism has actually evolved into a religion in China throughout history esp. during the Age of Fragmentation so as to call it instead of "Ru Xue 儒学" (confucian philosophy), we call it "Ru Jiao" 儒教 (confucian religion). You probably will realise that Confucius actually practised lots of zhou rites (周礼) in which some of them are rather religious.

Now, chinese folks religion actually take alot of practices from Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism.

I would just name some most common aspects of Chinese folks religion practice:

Ancestry worship - from Confucian religion

Worship of Guanyin - from Buddhism (avalotekiteshvara)

Worship of Guanyu - from Taoism and Buddhism (yes, Guanyu is also a deity figure in Buddhism)

Worship of the God of Land (土地公) - from Taoism

[MengTzu]

General_Zhaoyun, on Dec 3 2004, 05:18 AM, said:

Meng Tzu, there are people in China who worship Confucius and in China, there are also Confucian temples, not to mention there are several such temples in Taiwan and Singapore. Now, these Confucian temples actually hold many religious rites and practices. So, Confucianism has actually become a religion itself.

I'm aware of the various Confucian religious rites that supposedly began to take place in antiquity. What I meant when I said Confucianism isn't really a religion are 1) Confucianism didn't become a religion by itself, with its own independent organization, unlike Taoism and Buddhism which have their own religious orders, and 2) for the majority of the Chinese people Confucianism did not take the religious role that Taoism and Buddhism do. Despite its religious aspects, Confucianism isn't really a religion.

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Confucianism has actually evolved into a religion in China throughout history esp. during the Age of Fragmentation so as to call it instead of "Ru Xue 儒学" (confucian philosophy), we call it "Ru Jiao" 儒教 (confucian religion). You probably will realise that Confucius actually practised lots of zhou rites (周礼) in which some of them are rather religious.

I'm not sure, but I think "Ru Jiao" wasn't coined until recently.

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Now, chinese folks religion actually take alot of practices from Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism.

Absolutely, that was my point precisely.

[General_Zhaoyun]

TMPikachu, on Nov 19 2004, 09:42 AM, said:

Buddhism is flexible, it's not cast in stone. You can pray to whoever you want. It's not like you pray out of fear or ask Buddha to win the lottery, it's more like showing respect. I see prayer to Buddha as... showing respect to a great man. The ritual is also calming for me to do.

Well, actually praying to buddha is 'strictly speaking' not a buddhist practice. As a buddhist, we don't pray to buddha as like treating buddha as a god. Rather, we 'pay homage' to the Buddha, as like viewing him as our great teacher.

The misconception that some 'ignorant buddhist' who have not practised buddhism is that they thought Buddha is a god and thus they pray them or worship them, hoping that their prayers can be granted.

This is what I do when I visit a buddhist temple when I join any buddhist activities:

1. Pay homage to Buddha or Bodhisattva, dedicate merits to all sentient beings (not just you), and wishing them well and happy.

2. By viewing the Buddha, we are reminded of all the perfect qualities of Buddha and we aspired to be like them. Practising mindfulness is an important steps in Buddhist practise.

3. The Buddha is our great teacher and to seek for help and guidance if we encounter problems in our life. We are his students

4. Meditation in front of the Buddha is spiritually enlightening

5. Attending Dharma (buddhist teaching) talks by bikkhus

6. Chanting session

7. Any retreat etc

[tongyan]

Hmm, I think of myself as knowing a little bit about Buddhism so let me share my views here too.

It seems the reason that Chinese have kind of resorted to praying and worshipping Buddha in a way reminiscent of Western monotheistic religions is not only due to the syncretization of Confucian and Taoist traditions but also because of the advent of "Pure Land" 淨土 Buddhism. This form of Buddhism emphasizes the merits of Amitabha Buddha who created a "Western Pure Land" 西天 . This pure land is characterized as a sort of heaven or paradise in which the devoted can ascend to if they chant praises/homage to the Amitabha Buddha. (Namo Amitabha Buddha). Amitabha was said to have made a pledge to relieve all sentient beings from suffering by creating this Western Pure Land and receiving those who faithfully believed in his grace and the efficacy of his pledge. There was a description in one of the sutras of the Western Pure Land where the inhabitants were all working towards enlightenment in an ideal environment. The Boddhisattva Avalokitesvara (Guan-yin) is always depicted along with Amitabha because of his/her vow as a Boddhisattva to delay her enlightment until all sentient beings have been relieved from suffering.

Arhats are known as "Lo-Han" 羅漢 or "A-Lo-Han" 阿羅漢 in Chinese. In Theravada Buddhism, this is usually the highest level of enlightenment that people can achieve or it is the ideal that people strive to achieve. The ideal for Mahayana Buddhism is the Bodhisattva "Pu-Sa" 菩薩 or "Pu-Ti-Sa-Duo" 菩提薩埵 in Chinese. I guess one of the main differences that people always cite about Theravada and Mahayana is the focus on individual salvation for the Theravadans and the emphasis of salvation for all sentient beings in the Mahayana tradition.

[tongyan]

General_Zhaoyun, on Oct 28 2004, 08:29 PM, said:

Bodhisattvas are the disciples of the Buddha. They haven't reached the full/supreme enlightenment of the Buddha, however Bodhisattva are also enlightened beings who have delayed their entry into buddhahood, in order to help all sentient beings achieve enlightenment. They represent certain qualities such as compassion, great vow, wisdom etc. They themselves also understand that if they were to help all sentient beings achieve enlightenment, they themselves would also need to achieve buddhahood.

Buddha means 'the enlightened one". He is one who has already achieve supreme/full enlightenment.

There is also another enlightened being in buddhism called "Arahant". Arahant are also the disciples of the Buddha, but different from the Bodhisattva. They have merely broken away from the samsara ( cycle of life)and will not be reborn again. However, they haven't reached the full enlightenment of the Buddha.

The best analogy of depicting the relationship between arahant, bodhisattva and buddha is to compare it to the degree that you will get in the university. The whole buddhism is like a university education.

The 1st degree you will get is Bachelor degree and you become an arahant. The 2nd degree is Master degree and you become a bodhisattva and on the very top, is PhD, which is the Buddha, who are also like Professors.

Arahant is not able to teach one how to achieve buddhahood. Bodhisattva can teach something about buddhahood but not complete. Buddha is the supreme teacher able to teach anything about buddhahood.

When you mention "the Buddha" you make it sound like there's only one (even though I know you don't mean it that way). In fact, there are even several types of Buddhas - a distinction that mainly Mahayana Buddhism makes to distinguish them from the Theravadan ideal. There are (I think) 3 types of Buddhas.

Samyaksambuddha - translated as 'zheng deng jue zhe' 正等覺者 (correct peerless enlightened one) transliterated into Chinese as 'san-miao-san-fo-tuo' 三藐三佛陀. This is the Supreme Buddha who has attained salvation through his/her own path. They have rediscovered the Dharma and has his/her own path to the realiziation of enlightenment. They come into the world to teach the Dharma to others (such as the arahats) and they have the power to create worlds (like Amitabha's Western Pure Land). Siddhartha Gautama is considered a samyaksambuddha as well as Amitabha. Their respective paths to enlightenment can be followed by others to achieve enlightenment as well.

Pratyekabuddha - translated into Chinese as 'du-jue' 獨覺 (solitary realizer, self-enlightened one). Transliterated as 'bi-zhi-fo' 辟支佛 (abbr: 支佛) 獨覺 (solitary realizer) refers to the fact that this type of practitioner also attains salvation through his/her own path, not relying on the sermons of a teacher, with the difference being that they stay alone, absorbed in contemplation. These buddhas do not come into the world to lead others or disclose the path to salvation that they have discovered.

Sravakabuddha - translated into Chinese as 'sheng-wen' 聲聞(voice-hearer). Transliterated as 'she-luo-po-jia' 舍羅婆迦. Originally a direct disciple of one of the Samyaksambuddhas who actually heard the voice of the samyaksambuddha. They attain enlightenment through the guidance of a samyaksambuddha. May be able to teach the path but the path is not there's to begin with and so they are also solo practitioners. Also known as Arahats. The Arahats were originally translated in Chinese as 'bu-sheng' 不生 (No Rebirth), 'ying-gong' 應供(Worthy of Worship/Respect), and 'sha-zei' 殺賊 (Destroyer of the thief/enemy). The Arahat is all these things because they have 1. ended the cycle of rebirth, 2. destroyed the enemy (desire, mortality) 3. and so they are worthy of respect.

Also, characterizing a Bodhisattva as a "Master's Degree" recipient is a Mahayana bias. Theravadans may want to characterize the Arahat as the "Master's Degree" and the Bodhisattva as a really outdated/non-existent degree. As mentioned above, in the Theravadan tradition, the Sravakabuddha is the Arahat.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Tongyan said:

Also, characterizing a Bodhisattva as a "Master's Degree" recipient is a Mahayana bias. Theravadans may want to characterize the Arahat as the "Master's Degree" and the Bodhisattva as a really outdated/non-existent degree. As mentioned above, in the Theravadan tradition, the Sravakabuddha is the Arahat.

You seem to be more inclined towards Theravada tradition. How can you say "bodhisattva is an really outdated/non-existent degree"? A bodhisattva has to be reborn countless of times and cultivate the bodhisattva path (9 levels) in order to become a true bodhisattva. Doesn't that warrant a 'high degree"?

Maitreya Buddha is going to be the future Buddha and he is currently residing in the Tushida heaven as a bodhisattva.

Actually, my characterization is only meant for simplication for laymans to know what these buddhist terms are. Of course I know what you mean.

Anyway, when one practised a certain sect of buddhist whether it's mahayana or theravada, one is already biased. It's just a matter of preference. Mahayana buddhist has always placed greater emphasis on bodhisattva, while Theravada placed more emphasis on arahat. Theravada focused more on personal liberation, while Mahayana focused on liberation for the masses.

According to my understanding, the Mahayana believe that every sentient-beings have the capacity to become Buddha, and thus Buddhahood has become ultimate goals for all Mahayana buddhist. Of course, some become bodhisattva and get reborn countless of times before achieving Buddhahood.

But for me, I sometimes cannot accept the view from Theravada that Arahat is the highest goal that one can achieve, and one is not able to become a Buddha, which is probably why I'm more attracted to chinese Mahayana practice. IMO, an arahat has only achieved self-liberation, i.e. the realisation of emptiness and self-lessness, but hasn't inherited the various qualities such as perfect compassion, wisdom to become Buddha.

Arahat maybe able to achieve enlightenment, but he is not able to teach others to achieve enlightenment. Only the Buddha can teach, while Bodhisattva helps and save others.