[shawn]

Can anyone tell me anything of the various Liang Dynasties besides the dynasty names and emporers? I like to know their terriortial size and the population size and what policies they implemented in their countries and the organisation of their armies and how the founders got their thrones?

[Yun]

I believe you are asking about the states in Liangzhou, of which there were five in all. If you can read Chinese, there are maps showing these states here: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...c=769&st=15

The Former Liang was founded by the son of the Western Jin's last Governor of Liangzhou province, which covered the Gansu Corridor. When the rest of the North fell to the Xiongnu, Zhang Shi (whose father had died a few years before) became effectively independent but continued to pledge nominal allegiance to the Eastern Jin court in the South. His successors (who called themselves Governors of Liangzhou and Dukes of Xiping) fought off attacks by the Former Zhao and Later Zhao, but were later forced to declare themselves vassals of the Later Zhao. They also extended their power into the Tarim Basin. In 376, the state was conquered by the Former Qin.

The Later Liang was founded by the Former Qin general Lu Guang. He was sent by his ruler Fu Jian to conquer the Tarim Basin after the conquest of the Former Liang. He succeeded, but when he returned, he discovered that the Former Qin empire has collapsed after Fu Jian's defeat at the Fei River in 383. So he stayed in Liangzhou and founded his own kingdom there. He eventually took the title of Heavenly King of Liang in 396.

The Southern Liang was founded by the Xianbei chieftain Tufa Wugu in early 397. He rebelled against the Later Liang and captured the southern part of its territory, calling himself King of Xiping. Later in the same year, the Tocharian Juqu Mengxun revolted in the northern part of the Later Liang, because Lu Guang had executed two of his uncles on charges of plotting to rebel. Juqu Mengxun's cousin chose Duan Ye, the Later Liang prefect of Jiankang, to be the symbolic leader of the rebellion, with the titles Governor of Liangzhou and Duke of Jiankang. Duan Ye and Juqu Mengxun became increasingly suspicious of each other, and in 401 Mengxun tricked Duan Ye into executing Juqu Nancheng, and then used this as a pretext to rebel and overthrow Duan. Juqu Mengxun took the title of Duke of Zhangye, but changed his title to King of Hexi in 412. His regime is known to historians as the Northern Liang.

In 400, Li Gao the Later Liang prefect of Dunhuang rebelled against Duan Ye (this was before he was overthrown) and declared himself Duke of Liang and Governor of Shazhou. His territory included the whole Tarim Basin, and his state is known to historians as Western Liang.

In 403, the third Later Liang ruler, Lu Long, surrendered his state to the Later Qin because he was facing constant attacks from the Southern Liang and Northern Liang and feared for his life. The next state to fall was Southern Liang, in 414. The Western Qin invaded and captured the Southern Liang capital while the Southern Liang king Tufa Nutan (who had taken the title King of Liang in 402) was leading his army against a rebellious Xianbei tribe. Tufa Nutan was caught by surprise, and had to surrender.

Western Liang was conquered by Northern Liang in 421 after many years of war. Its second king Li Xin was killed in battle in 420 and the Northern Liang army captured the Western Liang capital Jiuquan, but Li Xin's younger brother Li Xun restored the dynasty in Dunhuang. In 421, Dunhuang fell to a siege by the Northern Liang, and Li Xun killed himself.

The Northern Liang then controlled the Tarim Basin and the Gansu Corridor, until the Northern Wei invaded in 439 and the Northern Liang king Juqu Mujian surrendered. This was the last campaign in the unification of the north by the Northern Wei.

[Yun]

BTW, a remnant of the Northern Liang state survived past 439. One of its princes set up a regime at Gaochang (now known as Turfan) in the Tarim Basin, and it lasted until 460, when the Rouran destroyed it. Gaochang remained a Rouran client state with its own semi-independent kings until the Rouran were defeated by the Turks. It was then a Turk client state until the Tang dynasty conquered it in 640.

[shawn]

How abt their admin policies? Wat kind of polices did they implement? Any famous ministers? How did they rule their countries? How were their armies organised? How big were their population?

[Yun]

Can you read Chinese? If so, there are a few books I could recommend to you on the subject. However, you'd need to be a member of the NUS library to borrow them.

The information you're asking for is so detailed that it's very difficult to summarise it here.

[shawn]

That's a shame then, Yun. I am serving NS now, end of this year ORD, are there anymore books in libraries out there which i can read abt the Liang states?

[Yun]

Try looking for 柏杨版通鉴纪事本末 Volume 15: 慕容超传奇, published in Taiwan. It's a direct translation of the primary source material into simple Chinese, along with good maps. In fact, look for Volumes 7 to 21 if you want translations of the material for Three Kingdoms to the end of the Age of Fragmentation.

These volumes used to be available in the Takashimaya Kinokuniya, but now only a few are left. You may be able to find some in the public libraries, though.

[Publius]

Similarly to Shawn, I too find these AoF discussions stimulating. Unfortunately, I cannot read very much Chinese. So, besides David Graff's "Medieval Chinese Warfare 300 - 900", are there any other good English books about the AoF? and it doesn't have to be about warfare, religion, economy, politics, etc... are all exciting topics for me. As of now, Graff's book and Yun's post comprise the extent of my knowledge.

Thanks is advance

This post has been edited by Publius: 04 October 2006 - 09:33 AM

[shawn]

What race did the Liang state founders belong to? Xiongnu or Xianbei? Can tell me the race of each of the founder of the 5 Liang states?

[shawn]

Emperor Wu Di of Liang, Xiao Yan
Xiao Yan (464 – 549 AD), styled Shuda, was from Southern Lanling (northwest of modern Changzhou of Jiangsu Province) and was the founder of Liang in the period of the Northern and Southern dynasties.
Xiao Yan was a distant cousin of Xiao Daocheng, founder of the Qi dynasty. He had been an ardent lover of reading since his childhood and enjoyed the same popularity as the famous scholar Shen Yue when he was young. In 498, he was appointed governor of Yongzhou entrusted with the defence of Xiangyang. In the closing years of the Southern Qi dynasty, Xiao Baorong mounted the throne on the strength of the exclusive support of Xiao Yan amidst the fraticidial fightings among the royal family members who simply neglected state affairs. In 501, however, Xiao Yan led his troops and captured the captured the capital Jiankang. He killed Xiao Baorong before assuming the title of emperor and founding the Liang Dynasty.
The new emperor made a lot of efforts to reconcile the relations between the scholar families and the common people, but he connived at the corruption of the royal family members and officials. It was said he led a simple life, eating a simple diet for the three meals of the day, and using the same old quilt for 2 years on end. That, however, was the deceptive side of the emperor.
As a devout believer of Buddhism, he spent large amount of money building temples and moulding Buddhist statues. There were temples all around the capital extending for 20km in all directions, with as many as 100,000 monks and nuns. At that time, there were even servants and maids in the temples throughout the country accounting for almost half of the total population. Later, the emperor even declared that he would abdicate to become a Buddhist monk, and for four times he dedicated to Tongtai temple, the largest of its kind in the capital city, but he was brought back by the court with a large sum of ransom which totaled 400 million coins, and thus he was call “Emperor Bodhisattva”. In addition, the emperor organized some scholars for the composition of Notes to the Classics and 600 volumes of General History.
As a result of various kinds of preferential treatment granted to the temples in Xiao Yan’s efforts to advocate Buddhism, there grew up quite a number of rich Buddhist monk landlords as well as very rich royal family members and influential families that formed the ruling class at the time. Once at the sight of his large pile of gold, silver and other treaures owed by his younger brother, Xiao Hong, he praised: “Brother, you are indeed good at arranging your life.”
In 548, when the Liang Dynasty was on the verge of collapse, a general Hou Jing, who had betrayed Eastern Wei Dynasty and surrendered to Liang, started a revolt and captured the capital Jiankeng following the besiege of the city for 130 days. Xiao Yan died of starvation at the age of 85 as his food supply had been cut off. He was later granted the posthumous title of Wu Di.

Book By - 100 Chinese Emperors
Written by - Wu Luxing
Translated by - Wang Xuewen and Wang Yanxi
Asiapac Books

Anything to add, please feel free. Thanks

Anyway, what race did Xiao Yan belong to?

This post has been edited by shawn: 15 November 2006 - 12:47 AM

[shawn]

Emperor Tai Zu of Later Liang Dynasty, Zhu Wen
Zhu Wen (852 – 912), the founder of the Later Liang Dynasty in the period of the Five Dynasties, was from Dangshan County of Song Prefecture (the present Dangshan County of Anhui Province).
In his childhood, Zhu Wen was a rogue in his village. Along with his brother, he later joined the forces of the peasant uprising and was appointed Vanguard General on the Southeastern Front and Defence General of Tongzhou Prefecture. But when the uprising army ran short of food and recruits, he surrendered to the Tang army in 882 and was granted the name of Quanzhong (full allegiance).
Zhu Wen (Zhu Quanzhong), then served as viceroy of Bianzhou city. Relying on his powerful army, Zhu Wen put the emperor Zhao Zong under his control. Later he had Zhao Zong murdered and made his 13-year old son Li zhu a puppet emperor. In 907 he abrogated the young emperor, putting an end to the Tang dynasty. He then usurped the crown, and changed his name to Zhu Huang and the empire title to Liang. He also moved the capital to Bianzhou, which was given a new name Kaifengfu. It was known in Chinese history as Later Liang Dynasty. After that, the other warlords followed his example and styled themselves as emperors one after another, thus ushering the chaotic period of the Five Dynasties and Ten States.
After Zhu Wen took over the power, he made some efforts to reform the corrupt political system passed down from the Tang Dynasty. The Council of Secretaries, which was of great power but controlled by eunuchs in the Tang period, was restructured into the Consulting Council, whose director served as the consultant of the emperor, but with less power than the director of the Council of the Secretaries of the Tang period. And when Qian Liu, the king of the State Wuyue suggested in 910 that he employed 25 eunuchs of the Tang, Zhu Wen replied that he did not need such eunuchs since the reform was being carried out to remove malpractices. 2 years after his reign, he restored the salary system for the officials so that they would not abuse the power to exploit the people. Beside the levies on the peasants were lightened.
Some years after Zhu Wen took the throne, Li keyong, a major opponent warlord died and his son Li Chunxu proclaimed himself King of Jin. Owing to the family feud, the 2 sides fought a fierce battle in Cuyi (the present Caoyi County of Hebei Province). With the army of Liang utterly defeated. So the following year, Emperor Tai Zu himself led an army of 500,000 northward to attack the Liang state. But at the mere sight of Jin’s army, Liang’s vanguard troops fled pell-mell. Actually, it was only Jin’s patrol of several hundred soldiers. Back to Luoyang, Tai Zu of Liang became badly ill. He sobbed bitterly before his death and said to his loyal ministers, “None of my sons is the match for Li Cunxu after my death. I would not be able to have a place for my grave.” He was killed at 60 by his 3rd son, who succeeded the throne. In 923, Li Chunxu’s army took the capital city Jaifeng and leveled his tomb.

Book By - 100 Chinese Emperors
Written by - Wu Luxing
Translated by - Wang Xuewen and Wang Yanxi
Asiapac Books

This post has been edited by shawn: 15 November 2006 - 07:17 PM

[Yun]

Neither Xiao Yan nor Zhu Wen were rulers of the Five Liang states - the character for their 'Liang' 梁 is not even the same as the character for the Five Liang 凉.

None of the Five Liang rulers are included in the 100 Emperors book from Asiapac.

Ethnicity of the rulers of the Five Liang states (I actually answered this question before, but the answer was lost because of corrupted database last week):

Former Liang - Hua 华 (what we would now call Han 汉)

Later Liang - Di 氐

Southern Liang - Xianbei 鲜卑

Northern Liang - Lushui Hu 卢水胡 (believed to be related to Yuezhi 月氏)

Western Liang - Supposedly Hua 华

[shawn]

Yeah, I know, these 2 states belong to other periods of time, I just included these 2 states just to share some info to people in the forum. That's all.

[Yun]

Quote

I just included these 2 states just to share some info to people in the forum. That's all.

In future, could you do so on a new thread in order to avoid misleading our friends here? Thanks.

[shawn]

Sorry

This post has been edited by shawn: 25 November 2006 - 07:35 AM