[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

In battle tactic which do you think was better.

I chose Xiang Yu.

Despite the bias of his incompetence, he has shown better military tactic records and army deployment than Han Xin.


First let’s examine Xiang Yu's victories, there are two major ones: Ju Lu and Peng Cheng.

In the battle of Ju Lu, Xiang Yu has around 50,000-70,000 army, his ally Yin Bu(英布) has 20,000, and other allies had only 30,000-50,000troops, but they haven’t participated in the battle in fear of Qin until the very end. XiangYu he has to face 200,000 border army of Zhang Dang(章邯) and 200,000 elite Qin army led by Wang Li(王离) belonging to the northern army of Mentien that guarded the great wall. Xiang Yu attacked the supply line of Qin first, separated the two armies, then used superior mobility to attack Zhang's army first and deefated him forcing him to withdraw, then suddenly attacked with great lighting strike against Wang Li and Wang was caught off guard and didn't have time to properly deploy the whole army, his units were stroke down one by one.
Only after that did his allies attack and surround Wang Li, gaining a victory. All together the whole battle could be attributed to roughly 60,000 XiangYu’s troops against the 400,000 of Qin’s best troops that are highly professionalized.

There is little I need to say about Peng Cheng, 30,000 elite Chu cavalry led by Xiang Yu defeated Liu Bang’s ELITE 200,000 cavalry and some mediocre baron allies which all together formed an army of 560,000. Even though the allies’ army is not of excellent quality, Liu Bang’s 200,000 is the best Han has to offer. It was the same troops that defeated the Three Qin. XiangYu manage to use mobility again and pick off Liu Bang’s army, which couldn’t utilize the size well. Over 200,000 ally troops were annihilated in that battle.

Han Xin's major battles were Three Qin, campaign against Wei, Jing Jin, campaign against Qi, and annihilating the combined Qi and Chu. Against the allies Han Xin used 60,000 to defeat 200,000 which is a great display of military numerical difference but thats still only little more than 3 to 1.
Of these only Jing Jin has high numerical difference. 30,000 conscripts under Han Xin defeated 200,000 conscripts under Cheng Yu.

While Xiang Yu defeated all elite armies, most of Han Xin's opponent are conscripts and his enemy are not top notch generals.
In both quantity and quality combination, Xiang Yu showed superior display of military genius on both part.

The only thing Xiang Yu lacked was strategic planning. Which led to his downfall.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Xiangyu is great in battle tactics and when in fighting. However, he lacks the strategy needed to win the whole war. His inability to use capable people was the cause of his downfall.

Hanxin was a man who is skilled in the Art of War. His 10 ambushes strategym was what cause the downfall of Xiangyu leading to his suicide at Gaixia.

[Type98G]

warhead, on Oct 26 2004, 11:43 PM, said:

In battle tactic which do you think was better.

I chose Xiang Yu.

Despite the bias of his incompetence, he has shown better military tactic records and army deployment than Han Xin.
First let’s examine Xiang Yu's victories, there are two major ones: Ju Lu and Peng Cheng.

In the battle of Ju Lu, Xiang Yu has around 50,000-70,000 army, his ally Yin Bu(英布) has 20,000, and other allies had only 30,000-50,000troops, but they haven’t participated in the battle in fear of Qin until the very end. XiangYu he has to face 200,000 border army of Zhang Dang(章邯) and 200,000 elite Qin army led by Wang Li(王离) belonging to the northern army of Mentien that guarded the great wall. Xiang Yu attacked the supply line of Qin first, separated the two armies, then used superior mobility to attack Zhang's army first and deefated him forcing him to withdraw, then suddenly attacked with great lighting strike against Wang Li and Wang was caught off guard and didn't have time to properly deploy the whole army, his units were stroke down one by one.
Only after that did his allies attack and surround Wang Li, gaining a victory. All together the whole battle could be attributed to roughly 60,000 XiangYu’s troops against the 400,000 of Qin’s best troops that are highly professionalized.

There is little I need to say about Peng Cheng, 30,000 elite Chu cavalry led by Xiang Yu defeated Liu Bang’s ELITE 200,000 cavalry and some mediocre baron allies which all together formed an army of 560,000. Even though the allies’ army is not of excellent quality, Liu Bang’s 200,000 is the best Han has to offer. It was the same troops that defeated the Three Qin. XiangYu manage to use mobility again and pick off Liu Bang’s army, which couldn’t utilize the size well. Over 200,000 ally troops were annihilated in that battle.

Han Xin's major battles were Three Qin, campaign against Wei, Jing Jin, campaign against Qi, and annihilating the combined Qi and Chu. Against the allies Han Xin used 60,000 to defeat 200,000 which is a great display of military numerical difference but thats still only little more than 3 to 1.
Of these only Jing Jin has high numerical difference. 30,000 conscripts under Han Xin defeated 200,000 conscripts under Cheng Yu.

While Xiang Yu defeated all elite armies, most of Han Xin's opponent are conscripts and his enemy are not top notch generals.
In both quantity and quality combination, Xiang Yu showed superior display of military genius on both part.

The only thing Xiang Yu lacked was strategic planning. Which led to his downfall.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Strange, isn't Wang Li's 400,000 troops just convict or prisoners that build Qin Shi Huang's tomb

they can't be Qin's best troops

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

No, they are Qin border troops guarding the great wall(most at least) thus the best of the Qin troops.

[Sephodwyrm]

Zhang Han's men are those of released prisoners.

[IronMouse]

I believe it was also the support of the common people Xian Yu lacked. I believe Liu Bang and therefore Han Xin would have won the war had they been able to drag it out longer. Winning the battles isn't as important as winning the war. Xian Yu may have been a good general, but he sure would have made one lousy emperor.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Large number of Wang Li's soldier are Qin border troops.

[Sephodwyrm]

I think Xiang Yu's outmatched by Han Xin. Han Xin has bested Zhao with relatively fewer men and has defeated Xiang's general Long Qie. Not only that, Han Xin also defeats Xiang Yu in the final bout.

If Xiang Yu beats the border troops and Han Xin beats Xiang Yu, I think Han Xin could probably beat the border troops of Qin as well given command of the same forces Xiang Yu has.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Yet you seem to left out Peng Cheng, which Han Xin did participate, although he wasn't the chief commander and Xiang Yu's troops decimated the Han army which outnumbered it just as Han Xin did to Zhao's.

[Sephodwyrm]

Ahh, but realize that Han Xin is not the overall commander. Liu Bang is. And he allowed his troops to disintegrate by partying, drinking, pillaging, looting etc etc prior to the battle, and more than half of the 500-600k force isn't even under Liu Bang's direct command. A great number of them defected when the battle started.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

But the 200,000 core troops were. And thats the number of difference Han Xin faught the Zhao. Han xin never beat Xiang Yu on the battle field, he was able to outwit Xiang Yu strategically, and a large part of Han's success isn't Han Xin's alone, don't forget Zhang Liang as well, he is the one that makes all the key decisions and trickeries. Even when Liu Bang quelled the rebellion of Yin Bu, he saw that Yin Bu's battle formation resembled that of Xiang Yu's and was instantly scared, such is the strength and terror that xiang Yu's tactical formaion had its imprint on Liu Bang.
Most of Han Xin's victory aren't outright field victory, Jing Jin for example, the enemy was new conscripts, Han Xin defeated them because the inexperience of these troops paniced and went out of formation when their flag was replaced on their encampment.

[Sephodwyrm]

And Han Xin won not by fighting, but by switching flags. Doesn't that make him a more capable general already?

At the battle of Wei Shui, Han Xin defeats the allied army of Qi and Chu. He defeated the Qi Chu alliance not by sheer force, but by enticing the overconfident Long Qie into striking early and falling into the water trap which cuts Long Qie's army in 2. Han Xin thus easily defeats the 2 armies separated by the river.

In the case for Xiang Yu, he relied more on the skill of his troops and the force of his personally led charges. Xiang Yu is a great and inspiring warrior that I cannot deny, but on the basis of strategy I don't think Xiang Yu can be comparable to Han Xin. And the smart thing about Han Xin is that even he listens to his advisors as well (like Li Zho Che).

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

"And Han Xin won not by fighting, but by switching flags. Doesn't that make him a more capable general already?"


He was only able to do so because the enemy is undisciplined newly recruits.

[Sephodwyrm]

Well, Long Qie's forces are not really undisciplined recruits. They got bashed up all the same.

And Han Xin's forces at Peng Cheng were relatively untouched. Liu Bang had to steal into his encampments and stole the command of army from under his nose.

And then regarding to the battle of Jing Jing, you must remember that Han Xin's soldiers are not really fantastic either. He included that in his comment when his generals asked him how they won the war despite the enemy having such a great numerical advantage over them and that they're positioned with their backs to the river.

Sun Tzu's art of war dictates that the general who always wins is not the best general. A general who can win without engaging himself or herself in meaningless attritional warfare is the truly skilled. I see Han Xin is being much more advanced in military thinking compared to Xiang Yu.

Sorry about the rather disorganized arguments presented. I am in a hurry to finish up linear algebra and matrices...HATE maths...sigh...haiz...

[Cao Cao]

warhead, where did you get the numbers that at Julu, Zhang Han and Wang Li each had 200,000 men?

I took a look at a military history encyclopedia on the period, and while the material is scanty, it mentioned that when Zhang Han, who had 200,000 men over all under his command, was besieging (the Zhao forces in) Julu, he detailed Wang Li to command the besieging forces, while he led to main force to the southwest of the city to prepare for a fight with the Chu relief force.

So according to that book, I would infer that Wang Li was a subordinate of Zhang Han, and therefore the force that he commanded to besiege Julu would naturally be much smaller than 200,000 men, since Zhang Han was regarding the Chu as the main enemy and not the besieged Zhao forces.