[wuTao]

I've read many references in books about the ancient Chinese and their worship of Shangdi, the Lord on High. The impression I got from what I read was that Shangdi was the supreme god of a monotheistic religion in ancient China. Am I correct in assuming this? What was this religion like (it's commandments, practices, etc.)?

[wlee15]

During the ancient period, Shangdi represented the highest diety with two lesser groups of dieties. They were the nature spirits and the ancestors. Shangdi was not worshiped because it was generally believed that Shangdi generally did not have a stake in the welfare of the ordinary people. Instead the people generally worship their ancestors and the nature spirits. The concept of Shangdi eventually became the concept of Tian or Tian Gong who was worship only by Emperors, while the nature spirits became lessor dieties.

[Kulong]

上帝 Shangdi should be better translated as "Emperor of the Heaven".

[General_Zhaoyun]

We normally refer "Shangdi" as the god in christianity (almighty creator)

[MengTzu]

It's not entirely clear if Shangdi should originally be taken to mean a Monotheistic God. In strict Monotheism (like Christianity,) other gods do not exist, or are not legitimately Divine, whereas Shangdi seems to be co-existent with other spirits who were celebrated. Nor is it clear that Shangdi is necessarily a solitude -- some Han metaphysical school(s) suggest(s) that there are five Di's, four in the four directions and one in the center. It is, I opine, generally problematic to apply a Western paradimatic category on an Eastern concept.

[Kulong]

MengTzu, on Nov 22 2004, 04:26 AM, said:

It's not entirely clear if Shangdi should originally be taken to mean a Monotheistic God.  In strict Monotheism (like Christianity,) other gods do not exist, or are not legitimately Divine, whereas Shangdi seems to be co-existent with other spirits who were celebrated.  Nor is it clear that Shangdi is necessarily a solitude -- some Han metaphysical school(s) suggest(s) that there are five Di's, four in the four directions and one in the center.  It is, I opine, generally problematic to apply a Western paradimatic category on an Eastern concept.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree that we should not apply Western labels on Eastern concepts and expect it to fit like a glove.

However, with that said, Catholics worship "saints" as well as God.

[Yun]

Well, a Catholic would say that they don't worship saints or Mary, only revere them and pray to them for help. Both Protestant and Catholic Christians are quite clear that only God is to be worshipped.

There was actually a controversy over the term 'Shangdi' in the Kangxi reign of the Qing dynasty. The Kangxi emperor had originally been on very good terms with the Jesuit missionaries, seeming at times to even accept their teachings about God. But the Dominican missionaries in China were rivals of the Jesuits, and accused the Jesuits of using a 'pagan' term ('Shangdi') to refer to God among the Chinese, and of allowing Chinese Christians to continue practicing ancestor worship. The Jesuits tried to argue that 'Shangdi' was a legitimate Chinese term for the Christian God, and that ancestor worship was not idolatry but only a non-religious cultural expression of filial piety. Rome, however, was not convinced and ruled that from now on God could only be referred to as "Deus" (the Latin term) in China, and that ancestor worship was forbidden for Chinese Christians. The Kangxi emperor was so annoyed by the attitude of the Vatican that he asked the Jesuits to leave China. His successor, the Yongzheng emperor, further banned all Christian missionaries from China, although some continued to enter secretly. It was not until the early 19th century (after the Opium War) that missionaries began to come to China in large numbers again.

[MengTzu]

Kulong, on Nov 22 2004, 02:14 PM, said:

I agree that we should not apply Western labels on Eastern concepts and expect it to fit like a glove.

However, with that said, Catholics worship "saints" as well as God.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Catholics don't worship saints. They honor them. To the reactionary Protestants, of course, every kind of veneration of anyone other than God looks like idolatry.

[Kulong]

MengTzu, on Nov 22 2004, 03:36 PM, said:

Catholics don't worship saints.  They honor them.  To the reactionary Protestants, of course, every kind of veneration of anyone other than God looks like idolatry.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not a Catholic nor do I really care much for religions in general. I personally believe they are a crutch for people who are emotionally handicapped. With that said, I don't necessarily disrespect those who CHOOSE to believe in religions just as I don't necessarily disrespect those who take drugs and/or other forms of crutches for their problems.

To me, Catholics believe saints are somehow "higher" than your average commonfolks, to me that's worshipping.

[MengTzu]

Kulong, on Nov 22 2004, 08:51 PM, said:

I'm not a Catholic nor do I really care much for religions in general.  I personally believe they are a crutch for people who are emotionally handicapped.  With that said, I don't necessarily disrespect those who CHOOSE to believe in religions just as I don't necessarily disrespect those who take drugs and/or other forms of crutches for their problems.

To me, Catholics believe saints are somehow "higher" than your average commonfolks, to me that's worshipping.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I suppose you can say that. But there is still a significant difference between veneration of saints and worshipping Chinese gods.

[Kulong]

MengTzu, on Nov 22 2004, 04:35 PM, said:

I suppose you can say that.  But there is still a significant difference between veneration of saints and worshipping Chinese gods.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course there is. You are essentially comparing two very different traditional cultures from nearly the opposite ends of the world which have developed mostly independently for thousands of years...

[MengTzu]

Kulong, on Nov 22 2004, 09:48 PM, said:

Of course there is.  You are essentially comparing two very different traditional cultures from nearly the opposite ends of the world which have developed mostly independently for thousands of years... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My point exactly. Hence my original point that it's not certain to say that the religion of ancient China (such as Shang dynasty) was Monotheistic.

[wuTao]

MengTzu, on Nov 22 2004, 01:26 AM, said:

It's not entirely clear if Shangdi should originally be taken to mean a Monotheistic God.  In strict Monotheism (like Christianity,) other gods do not exist, or are not legitimately Divine, whereas Shangdi seems to be co-existent with other spirits who were celebrated.  Nor is it clear that Shangdi is necessarily a solitude -- some Han metaphysical school(s) suggest(s) that there are five Di's, four in the four directions and one in the center.  It is, I opine, generally problematic to apply a Western paradimatic category on an Eastern concept.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not to get off topic, but aren't you taking this idea of the problems of applying Western paradigmatic categories on an Eastern concept a little too far?

I mean, when it comes down to it, all words represent concepts, and since we use the English language on this forum, they all represent the Western paradigm of that concept. That would mean nothing is translatable and cross cultural communication impossible, since all English words represent concepts that are from a Western perspective, and according to you, it's problematic to apply the Western paradigm to Eastern concepts.

I think for an idea like Monotheism, it is alright to apply it to religions of other cultures if that religion only worships one God. If the religion of Shangdi does not do so, as you have pointed out, then we can say it's not Monotheistic.

[MengTzu]

wuTao, on Nov 23 2004, 09:59 PM, said:

Not to get off topic, but aren't you taking this idea of the problems of applying Western paradigmatic categories on an Eastern concept a little too far? 

I mean, when it comes down to it, all words represent concepts, and since we use the English language on this forum, they all represent the Western paradigm of that concept. That would mean nothing is translatable and cross cultural communication impossible, since all English words represent concepts that are from a Western perspective, and according to you, it's problematic to apply the Western paradigm to Eastern concepts. 

I think for an idea like Monotheism, it is alright to apply it to religions of other cultures if that religion only worships one God. If the religion of Shangdi does not do so, as you have pointed out, then we can say it's not Monotheistic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The debate about applying one system of categories on another system is a big one nowadays. I'm not sure if I hold fast to either side of the issue, but I'd at least say this: if it's okay to apply, say, Western categories on Eastern concepts, then we need to at least always be careful to make qualifications. This is because a category often includes a broad spectrum of things, and often time when we apply a category, we base that decision on a few elements. For example, while Christianity and Buddhism are similar in some ways, enough that we call the latter a religion, there are also a lot of dissimilarities that can be overlooked if we insist on the categorization that Buddhism is a religion like Christianity. I believe, though, that conventionally speaking, using foreign categories is a useful method, because the categories of a particular culture can, overtime, transcend their original context.

[somechineseperson]

MengTzu, on Nov 22 2004, 10:26 AM, said:

It's not entirely clear if Shangdi should originally be taken to mean a Monotheistic God.  In strict Monotheism (like Christianity,) other gods do not exist, or are not legitimately Divine, whereas Shangdi seems to be co-existent with other spirits who were celebrated.  Nor is it clear that Shangdi is necessarily a solitude -- some Han metaphysical school(s) suggest(s) that there are five Di's, four in the four directions and one in the center.  It is, I opine, generally problematic to apply a Western paradimatic category on an Eastern concept.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The idea of five Dis is a later invention, not a part of the original Chinese religion of the Three Dynasties. Besides, even if one assume this particular metaphysical system, there is still a highest God, as the Di of the centre would correspond to Shangdi, who is superior to the other four Dis. Strict monotheism may have just been a western theological invention. Even the ancient Hebrews did not strictly worship Jehovah as their only God, but only as the highest God. (Christian revisionism aside, even Moses was not a strict monotheist, the commandment "You shall have no other gods BUT me" is actually "You shall have no other gods OVER me" if the original Hebrew is translated literally) Shangdi is similar. Shangdi is the Highest, Supereme God, the Creator and Ancestor of all things, but not the only god. The offical title of Shangdi is Huang Tian Shang Di, literally means "Supereme Soverign God of Heaven". The Daoist identify Shangdi with "Tai Yi Shen" the "Supereme One God", i.e. the Great Dao Itself.

IMHO there is no simple distinction between reverence and worship, therefore objectively it is difficult to define whether the Catholics "worship" the saints or merely "revere" them.

True, monotheism is a western concept, but we use western concepts all the time. Words like "philosopher" and "emperor" are strictly speaking also western concepts. If we can call Confucius a Chinese "philosopher" and Han Wudi a Chinese "emperor", we can also call Shangdi a Chinese "monotheist God", even though the monotheism is not theologically strict. But IMHO theologically strict monotheism is a much later European invention. Shangdi of ancient China's Three Dynasties was as "monotheistic" as Jehovah of the early Hebrews was.

Or if you prefer we can use Chinese conceptual constructs the other way around. Lets call Socrates a Ancient Greek "Ru" and Marcus Aurelius a Roman "Huangdi". Similarly, we can also call Logos the "Dao" and Jehovah "Shangdi Tai Yi Shen". We can look at western civilisation through Chinese lenses.