[bejean]

Been bothering me for a long while.

With and without various types of armour, how many sabre cuts or spear thrusts will be required for a soldier to get mortally wounded or dead immediately?

I got slashed once long time ago, across my back. The pain is excruciating, but never life threatening. Some stitches in hospital and i am ok. Heard from a distant friend, he got stabbed in the stomach once while being mugged and he nearly fainted from the pain and blood lost.

So anyone have answers or share something about my questions? Much appreciated.

[thirdgumi]

One, just one strike on the right place would be enough to kill a man. Like a stabb in the heard, on the neck, or cutting someones head off would be immediat kill. A wound on the leg cutting the main artery would cause a man to die withing few minutes. A stabb on the belly if piercing guts or stomach would also be fatal considering the medical technology of ancient times. Of course, one must penetrat the armor of one's adversary first.

[Solid_Snake]

thirdgumi, on Jan 29 2007, 12:28 PM, said:

One, just one strike on the right place would be enough to kill a man. Like a stabb in the heard, on the neck, or cutting someones head off would be immediat kill. A wound on the leg cutting the main artery would cause a man to die withing few minutes. A stabb on the belly if piercing guts or stomach would also be fatal considering the medical technology of ancient times. Of course, one must penetrat the armor of one's adversary first.

True, i could shoot somebody 10,000 times in their legs and they still wouldn't die. But if you find the right place, you can kill someone with your finger!!!

[bejean]

Actually i didn't make my questions properly it seems. I was trying to find out how effective are various types and parts of armour against attacks like a arrow, spear thrust, sabre slash, etc?

[Altaica Militarica]

bejean, on Feb 2 2007, 12:54 AM, said:

Actually i didn't make my questions properly it seems. I was trying to find out how effective are various types and parts of armour against attacks like a arrow, spear thrust, sabre slash, etc?

Some facts:

1650 - Cossaks had a fight with Dahurs in the burg of Prince Guigudar on Amur. Cossaks were in brigandines and attacked defenders with sabers and spears. They lost 4 men and killed 661 Dahurs (non-combatants included). I believe than only about 300 of them were Dahur's warriors.

1651 - Cossaks had a fight with Achans in the burg of Achansk on Amur. Cossaks (206) defeated Achans (more than 1000) by killing more then 300 of them and only 1 Cossak was killed by Achans.

1652 - Cossaks were attacked by Manchu cavalry near the burg of Achansk. 10 Cossaks were killed at the spot. Others escaped and closed in the burg. Then Manchu tried to assault the burg but were defeated. Cossaks fired a big cannon into the opening in the wall of the burg and destroyed the best Manchu warriors. Then they started to fight with sabers and won. Oficially Cossaks lost 10 killed in action and 78 wounded. Oficially (by Russian report) Manchu army lost 676 killed in action.

1686 - Cossaks and regular soldiers (so called Streltsy) were besieged in the wagenburg for 3 days by Mongols. There were about 3000 Mongols and 500 Russians. 17 Russians were killed within 3 days and 250 wounded with arrows. Russian troops had to withdraw. Mongols lost several dozens of killed and heavily wounded by Russian bullets.

1689 - One Cossak was encircled by a group of Mongols who shot him with their bows. They need 12 arrows to kill him.

1871 - Koreans fought with US marines in the fort of Kwangsungjin. Koreans fired their matchlocks, then threw stones and then ised their sabers. US mariners lost 3 killed in action and about a dozen of wounded. Koreans lost 243 killed in action. The first American killed was the Lieutenant Hugh McKee. He climbed the wall, but got a bullet in the groin, then he was thrusted with a spear and slashed with a saber. He was found after the battle alive but he died due to the sepsis. He had 19 wounds from bullet, spears and sabers!

[Wujiang]

Well it depends, how much are you paying me ? You want your death custom made or just you usual high quality, mass-delieved thing I normally provide ?

[bejean]

To: Altaica Militarica, Solid Snake and Thirdgumi

Nearly forgotten about this thread till someone "bumped" it up and I found something in my reading on this subject. Basically there is 2 school of thoughts here, "system shock" hypothesis and "critical wound" theory to summarize my findings that is. And i found an article appended below (lost the link, sorry). It is about bullet ballistics but it gave me a understanding of how it is to kill with a projectile, ie arrows too. Would be asking my family doctor about it when i go for my body checkup.

Mechanics of Projectile Wounding

In order to predict the likelihood of incapacitation with any handgun round, an understanding of the mechanics of wounding is necessary. There are four components of projectile wounding.6 Not all of these components relate to incapacitation, but each of them must be considered. They are:

1. Penetration. The tissue through which the projectile passes, and which it disrupts or destroys.
2. Permanent Cavity. The volume of space once occupied by tissue that has been destroyed by the passage of the projectile. This is a function of penetration and the frontal area of the projectile. Quite simply, it is the hole left by the passage of the bullet.
3. Temporary Cavity. The expansion of the permanent cavity by stretching due to the transfer of kinetic energy during the projectile's passage.
4. Fragmentation. Projectile pieces or secondary fragments of bone which are impelled outward from the permanent cavity and may sever muscle tissues, blood vessels, etc., apart from the permanent cavity.Fragmentation is not necessarily present in every projectile wound. It may, or may not, occur and can be considered a secondary effect.

Projectiles incapacitate by damaging or destroying the central nervous system, or by causing lethal blood loss. To the extent the wound components cause or increase the effects of these two mechanisms, the likelihood of incapacitation increases.

[thirdgumi]

Yeah, I also forgot this thread.

BTW, where did you get those infos from Altaica Militarica?

[Wujiang]

So you're going to ignore things like being poisoned ? Cause you know, I am sure that can kill you too. Especially considering how poison are added to arrows and such.

[kaiselin]

thirdgumi, on Jan 29 2007, 01:28 PM, said:

A stabb on the belly if piercing guts or stomach would also be fatal considering the medical technology of ancient times. Of course, one must penetrat the armor of one's adversary first.

Yes it would most likely be fatal, but it unless you hit a vital organ or an artery, a stab to the gut/intestines would be rather slow, days and very painful. You would most likely die of peritonitis. It could take a week or more. If you have enough adrenalin in a battle you would be able to continue in the battle. Once the heat of the battle was gone then you would wish that you had died in it.

[Wujiang]

I think one of the key problem with this whole topic is that people can die for apparantly no reason while at the same time be able to survive with as much as 3/4 of their brain removed.

[Mei Houwang]

I've heard of some amazing things such as surviving NORMALLY with half your brain removed, but 3/4? Can you tell me where you got that?

[Wujiang]

it was a case back in the mid 90s in the US. A man had a rare form of neuro-bacteria/virus/forgot-which, which were eating away at the brain. It was actually a very slow process but the guy never saw a doctor as the only symptom was low fever. It was only when his motor functions and eyesight started to get dodgy that they concluded that he needed surgery. When his brain was opened up, they discovered that the bacteria/virus/whatever had already infected the majority of the brain and they had to remove bits and peices of it out. Lucky for him, only grey matter from the cortex were removed and no white matter was touched. If I recall, most of the infection was in the frontal and parietal lobe but on the whole, those bugger were everywhere. I never read up on what happened to the guy afterwards though.

[Mei Houwang]

It's amazing how the brain can adapt to its circumstances, but when you cut off even one limb of the body, it bleeds to death.

[Wujiang]

You can safely amputate a limb under a controlled environment just as you can conduct brain surgery. But if you cut off the arm and just leave it like that, you will bleed to death just like if I swiped off a slice of your head. It is still less black and white, but in a few years, I suspect the matter is no longer what you are missing as opposed to in what condition did you lose them in.